Could Honda have done a worse job this year?
#1
Posted 30 June 2015 - 17:30
We have to cut them some slack, it's early days still in a big project but......
Understaffed operation, smaller budget than Merc and Ferraris engine programs and a power unit that so far has been frankly embarrassing - underpowered, significantly more thirsty than the rest and the most unreliable too.
For a company of their size I don't think anyone expected them to be this bad so far
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#2
Posted 30 June 2015 - 17:37
I think the main thing, unlike Renault, is that that they recognise their mistakes and are trying hard to rectify them.
#3
Posted 30 June 2015 - 17:43
We could also ask If Nissan could have done a worse job this year.....
The problem is that we don't have any comparisons: They're the only engine manufacturer who started one year later, maybe it is such a big disadvantage. But I don't think so. They're with an suppostly better fitting and improved chassis slower than last year. So this Honda engine is way slower than last years Merc engine with also having one more year time and the chance to check out some basic things on the Merc engine in 2014.
So I think no, they couldn't have done a worse job....
Edited by Marklar, 30 June 2015 - 17:43.
#4
Posted 30 June 2015 - 17:53
I'd be interested in seeing their total mileage to date (including preseason) compared to what the Mercedes works team managed in 2014 preseason testing alone.
But that's just how my cool mind works.
#5
Posted 30 June 2015 - 17:55
Honda have just been shocking this year, in more sports than F1:
F1- We all know what's happened there
Indy - Made a worse Aero kit than Chevy, leaving them to be the underdog in this season
Sportscars - Oh boy did they screw this one up. Made a brand new LMP2 car for the new rules cycle, turned out to be OKAY, but the aero just did not work. So Honda withdrew it from hte rest of the season to do development work on it, after just one race at the Daytona 24. Fast forward 6 months, and they planned on entering Pikes Peak, with the same P2 car and Justin Wilson at the wheel. They pull out due to engine issues.
Honda/HPD need a serious look at their infrastructure, cause something clearly isn't right
#6
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:02
I think Honda have made a poor job this season, their ability to be better or worse is harder to gauge. It does appear they regardless of what transpired last season for Renault and Ferrari, no heed have been paid, no plans have been changed and the effort needed completely underestimated. Somewhere in other threads we have had the various variations of how McLaren Honda used to be great, but the glamor and achievements of yesteryear have zero meaning.
Bottom line is the Honda McLaren partnership have a much much poorer 1st season together than anyone had imagined, and with the current regulations it is a stretch to see how they can become even remotely competitive in the short term.
#7
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:08
Probably true, stil it is not an excuse for such a big company like Honda. And if mileage would be the problem than they would improve in every race but since Monaco they don't.When you consider that Mercedes effectively had 4 times the feedback (probably more), in preseason testing last year than Honda had this year, they were always going to be off the pace no matter how much dosh they throw at the team.
I'd be interested in seeing their total mileage to date (including preseason) compared to what the Mercedes works team managed in 2014 preseason testing alone.
But that's just how my cool mind works.
#8
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:09
#9
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:13
With a smaller budget I honestly believe cosworth would have done a better job
#10
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:20
#11
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:21
What's there to debate about? No one denies Honda failed.The point I'm trying to debate is that for a company the size of Honda the operation has been farcical
With a smaller budget I honestly believe cosworth would have done a better job
#12
Posted 30 June 2015 - 18:23
What's there to debate about? No one denies Honda failed.
Failure can only be judged once Honda leave the sport. At this moment they are not doing well, but that does not mean it will always be that way.
#13
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:05
I think it's a question for the future, if they end up in a few years being serious competition to the Ferrari and Mercedes engines, they might have actually down a good job, but if they don't, they did a bad job.
#14
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:10
After RekF1 asked that's the total mileage of the Mercedes teams in 2014 compare to Honda in 2015.
2014 Testing mileage (km) of the Mercedes teams (pre season testing, Bahrain and Barcelona in season testing) Mercedes 7.119 Williams 5.902 McLaren 5.822 Force India 5.363 ------------------- 24.206 Race weekend mileage (km) of the Mercedes teams Australia 5.579 Malaysia 5.732 Bahrain 5.033 China 5.338 Spain 5.373 Monaco 4.119 Canada 5.865 Austria 6.278 ------------------- 43.317 Total: 67.523 km 2015 Testing mileage (km) of McLaren (pre season testing, Barcelona and Austria in season testing) McLaren 3.310 Race weekend milage (km) of McLaren Australia 944 Malaysia 848 China 1.455 Bahrain 963 Spain 1.383 Monaco 1.155 Canada 1.143 Austria 848 ------------------ 8.739 Total: 12.049 km
#15
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:18
Understaffed operation, smaller budget than Merc and Ferraris engine programs
How do you know this for certain?
And how would you have done things differently?
#16
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:21
The comparison should be with the struggling teams and not the successful ones.
Renault - 2 teams, 3 wins, 73 laps led, 12 podiums.
Ferrari - 3 teams, 0 wins, 32 laps led, 2 podiums.
Renault have regressed, Ferrari have advanced, Honda is no way near anything like where they were last season after 8739 km.
#17
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:26
I've seen enough projects fall way behind original deadlines to believe, before the season started, that Honda would not be bringing a blisteringly competitive PU in this season. The problems they are experiencing are, in my opinion, simply down to underestimating the task at hand or, perhaps, just not acknowledging that the time line was not achievable when they started.
I have no reason to doubt that the PU will perform given time (as long as they don't panic and try to force more unachievable deadlines on the project - which is what I feel has happened at Renault due to the posturing of Red Bull).
#18
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:27
To be honest, my expectations were very low for 2015 season but for 2016 season, I expect Honda to be competitive. Honda have to produce a competitive power unit for 2016 season because Ferrari showed that it is possible.
#19
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:29
As far as i know the year is not over.
#21
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:41
Come 2016,if they are competitive all will be forgotten and the project will be a success.
If not,well then...
#22
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:50
Could have done better, but could have done worse.
I think the main thing, unlike Renault, is that that they recognise their mistakes and are trying hard to rectify them.
If they are trying then their efforts are not good enough. Given Renault slow start to 2014, one could have expected Honda to have learned from that and prepared even more. Their failure to even put down a meaningful number of laps in testing demonstrated severe lack of testing. It was as if the car and engine were mated for the first time. If Mclaren were a midfield team make a brave decision to partner with a new engine manufacturer then the performance would have been excusable, but this is a top team, with two world champions.
This performance is an unmitigated farce. There is no lower point than this. The engine lacks power, reliability or any positives.
#23
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:52
We can compare to Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault from last year. And they did a hell of a lot better than what Honda has done so far. Honda even had a full year to prepare and failed miserably.
#24
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:57
They also over hyped the return to the point that anything other than instant wins was going to be a disappointment. Unfortunately I dont think we'll see McLaren winning anything anytime soon which is a big shame for both Jenson and Fernando they deserve better.
#25
Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:59
We can compare to Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault from last year. And they did a hell of a lot better than what Honda has done so far. Honda even had a full year to prepare and failed miserably.
The other teams still had more time before their engines hit the track than Honda did.
#26
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:02
This is not correct.We can compare to Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault from last year. And they did a hell of a lot better than what Honda has done so far. Honda even had a full year to prepare and failed miserably.
They will be in September where the others have been in January 2014.
Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari started development _latest_ in Summer 2011, as soon as the rules became clear.
So they had roughly 30 Months of development.
Honda started somewhere in Spring 2013, so they had less around 9 months less time to arrive at Jerez for the first tests.
(Apart that, I'm sure that at least Mercedes was so committed to F1 in 2010/2011, that they had begun even earlier with development, and giving some direction to the regulations....)
#27
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:14
If they are trying then their efforts are not good enough. Given Renault slow start to 2014, one could have expected Honda to have learned from that and prepared even more. Their failure to even put down a meaningful number of laps in testing demonstrated severe lack of testing. It was as if the car and engine were mated for the first time. If Mclaren were a midfield team make a brave decision to partner with a new engine manufacturer then the performance would have been excusable, but this is a top team, with two world champions.
This performance is an unmitigated farce. There is no lower point than this. The engine lacks power, reliability or any positives.
Actually things could be a lot worse given the short lead time the engine had. We are used to simple ICE PUs and the current systems are on a level above in terms of both hardware and especially software.
If Honda was alone screwing up I'd blame Honda. However the reality is that in 2014 only one manufacturer turned up with a decent engine. Two didn't. In 2015 one manufacturer caught up a bit with Mercedes, the other didn't and Honda are also having problems. All of the manufacturers involved have decades of F1 experience each.
The joker who claims Cosworth would have done a better job doesn't understand the difficulty of the task, given their current competences they would have been lucky to develop a PU that could complete a series of laps, packaging it as tightly as Honda did would be a distant dream.
F1 should be spinning this positively accentuating the amazing technological feat these PUs are instead of talking about how bad they sound. The fact that two of the most successful manufacturers in history are having difficulties underscores that.
Given the truncated development time Honda's current difficulties are disappointing but not surprising. However I don't think their efforts can be judged until 2016 at the earliest.
Edited by Talisman, 30 June 2015 - 20:16.
#28
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:20
Even McLaren's Peugeot engine wasn't as bad as this. Dire.
#29
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:21
Well count me as surprised that they after failing as much as they did with their last effort, they once more enter the sport without understanding what it takes.
#30
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:29
After RekF1 asked that's the total mileage of the Mercedes teams in 2014 compare to Honda in 2015.
2014 Testing mileage (km) of the Mercedes teams (pre season testing, Bahrain and Barcelona in season testing) Mercedes 7.119 Williams 5.902 McLaren 5.822 Force India 5.363 ------------------- 24.206 Race weekend mileage (km) of the Mercedes teams Australia 5.579 Malaysia 5.732 Bahrain 5.033 China 5.338 Spain 5.373 Monaco 4.119 Canada 5.865 Austria 6.278 ------------------- 43.317 Total: 67.523 km 2015 Testing mileage (km) of McLaren (pre season testing, Barcelona and Austria in season testing) McLaren 3.310 Race weekend milage (km) of McLaren Australia 944 Malaysia 848 China 1.455 Bahrain 963 Spain 1.383 Monaco 1.155 Canada 1.143 Austria 848 ------------------ 8.739 Total: 12.049 km
That's really cool of you to take the time to do that. Thanks man.
#31
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:37
I didn't expect them to be any better. While renault and ferrari were embarassing last year compared to mercedes, they could at leastrun their cars, renault even won 3 races. Honda hasn't built a decent f1 engine since 1991, when the technology was preety rudimentary compared to today, and their policy of using young engineers without enough eperience is definately showing this year. They might get the car more often to the finnish net year, but they'll stil be miles off. Time to spend some money on merc and ferrari personnel.
#32
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:42
Yes, Button's engine could have failed in Monaco.
#33
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:49
#34
Posted 30 June 2015 - 20:51
I don't think they could have done a worse job than this. And I seriously doubt that they can do the job at all. They failed the last two times and it's much more complex now. I predict they will be gone by the end of 2016.
#35
Posted 30 June 2015 - 21:16
I am not joking about cosworth, I'm not saying they would have won races but they would have done a better job than what Honda have so far
The point is that for everything, even with lower expectations this year Honda have not even got close to meeting them
It will be at least 3-5 years before they can challenge realistically
#36
Posted 30 June 2015 - 21:17
I wonder what McLaren's backup plan is should there be no improvement next year? A team of this calibre can't just keep on being this bad or they'll end up like Williams did for so many years.
#37
Posted 30 June 2015 - 21:19
#38
Posted 30 June 2015 - 21:23
I am not joking about cosworth, I'm not saying they would have won races but they would have done a better job than what Honda have so far
On the one hand you accuse Honda of underspending, and that being a big contributor to their current situation.
On the other you claim that a company with a group turnover probably less than half of what Honda spends on F1 could outdo them?
#39
Posted 30 June 2015 - 21:31
Not sure what people expected. It was always going to be a short term pain, in order to experience (hopefully for them) long term reward. It was a constant theme in all of the topics about this last year.
But both sides were sort of doing this "gamble" out of desperation. McLaren were poor last year with the best engine in the field. Forget about fighting Merc or Williams, they were fighting Force India. Alonso had exhausted all patience or time with Ferrari and was set to go somewhere else. For both sides, it was a "grass is always greener" sort of move, that COULD pay off.. but in the short term, all odds were against them.
I haven't been impressed with McLaren on the chassis side, since Lewis left. Which is quite a long time ago by now. Now they have a Renault-esque engine.. and they are nowhere. Lucky to score a single point if everything goes well.
McLaren can use the season as a test season, to develop the car. It's hard for Honda, because they are behind everyone before they even start, and it's hard to catch up with only one test to test with, and with partially frozen regulations. Not to mention, that they have 'returned' to F1, which other engine makers have been in F1 all along.
If anyone expected podiums or contending against Merc this year, I don't know what to say. Maybe in a few years but Honda has never been strong on the engine side since I started watching F1. Average at best. When Honda left, Brawn put a Merc engine in the car and suddenly the car won a championship. Would that same car have won with a Honda engine?
You can understand things from McLaren's side, as it would always be hard to beat Mercedes while using their engine. It was always going to be a high risk, high reward thing though. Maybe in a few years the reward can pay off, but it's hard to watch right now. Alonso and Button aren't getting any younger and they deserve better. We deserve better in watching the races and seeing the drivers compete against each other without such huge handicaps. F1 has become an engine formula, and only two of the four makers are good at making engines. That means half of the grid will always be getting shafted.
People complained of tyre wars, and how half the teams would be on the wrong tyre but it's the exact same thing only with engines instead of tyres. If Honda and Renault left the sport, would Merc and Ferrari be forced to supply everyone? That would assure that Merc and Ferrari would be the only two championship contenders for the long term future right?
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#40
Posted 30 June 2015 - 21:58
As a 40 year McLaren fan, I'm a wee bit disappointed. To answer the original question, no, they couldn't. People can say that they had less time, but they really didn't. No-one last year suffered the humiliations that they have. It's looking likely that they will both again need to have replacement engines this weekend - okay, Honda cannot be held responsible for the engine that got disintegrated in the collision with Kimi, but Jenson's engine that suffered sensor problems is "under investigation", and now Fred is getting an old engine to prevent penalties. Even the much maligned - and deservedly so - Peugeot in the '94 season got podiums, I don't think anyone now will say that the Honda unit will even vaguely approach the heights that the Peugeot managed.
It's been totally ridiculous. I can't remember in 40 years anyone else ever producing anything this bad - I know McLaren couldn't win with a customer unit, but they'd be doing a lot better, and the time could have been used to develop this grenade into an engine. Heads should roll - or whatever the cultural equivalent is.
Edited by Lotus53B, 30 June 2015 - 21:59.
#41
Posted 30 June 2015 - 22:06
The point I'm trying to debate is that for a company the size of Honda the operation has been farcical
With a smaller budget I honestly believe cosworth would have done a better job
On the first point, I see what you are saying. One would have thought with the resources and people they have at their disposal coupled with their ingenuity (not necessarily motorsport, I am thinking other fields, like ASIMO, think Honda Jet, think VTEC kicking in yo) and it's surprising that they have fudged it all up so far.
On the other hand, perhaps it is in the context of pioneering engineering endeavour and the memory of past triumphs that have made them (Honda) and their fans conditioned to expect success, perhaps even arrogantly so, in spite of the sheer complexity of the new regulations.
It should be remembered though that, unlike Mercedes and perhaps less so Ferrari, they have simply not committed the time needed to fully understand and ‘perfect’ the technology.
I think that what they need now is just that; time. It’ll be tough, may be even more embarrassing than it is now but unlike Renault, whose interest and commitment to F1 appears to change with the wind, outwardly at least, they appear to be fully committed to seeing this project through. Whether that is enough though, remains to be seen.
On the point about Cosworth, well, possibly, but again I think they suffer in the same way as Honda do, in that they trade on past glories. When was the last time that a Cosworth powered anything won a race? 2003? And that was a fluke (I remember it as I was a Jordan fan back then!). And before that it was 1999 in the back of a Steward, the de-facto Ford 'works' entry.
#42
Posted 30 June 2015 - 22:14
It's been a disaster, Alonso hasn't been able to use his 6 tenths so far this season.
#43
Posted 30 June 2015 - 22:15
Could have done better, but could have done worse.
I think the main thing, unlike Renault, is that that they recognise their mistakes and are trying hard to rectify them.
Could have done worse? How? Not get the engine done in time?
Slow and unreliable. Things couldn't get worse.
#44
Posted 30 June 2015 - 22:20
Honda had at least a whole year to blast away on the dynos, watch and learn from the first year grief the other companies endured, run mules on their own test track, etc. etc.
For a company that thrives on engines I am flabbergasted that they are struggling as much as they are.
I'm sure they have had many sleepless nights.
They could have done worse - Button could have zero points just like Alonso.
#45
Posted 30 June 2015 - 22:33
They did make this though; who needs real race cars?
#46
Posted 30 June 2015 - 22:42
To the OP. For me the jury is still out on that. Mclaren/Honda decided to do something radical, and apparently the goals have been too aggressive. If they can work it out, they might still be driving circles around the competition. If not at least start to look decent soon McLaren/Honda v. 2.0 was a flop. For F1 sake please rebound. If anything, F1 needs a strong McLaren/Honda combo. I'm not a McLaren fan, but this season shows that McLaren is important to F1 overall. While the majority of teams are mostly British, F1 needs one strong team that is considered to be typical British heritage and can challenge for the championship. Be that Williams or McLaren. Williams ain't there yet and McLaren to me is the only team that could turn a corner. But Honda needs to sort out the engine by today.
It's been a disaster, Alonso hasn't been able to use his 6 tenths so far this season.
Which just shows that the engine these days is more important than the driver. But F1 was always more or less that way. Once the engines have more equality we're back to the aero game.
#47
Posted 01 July 2015 - 00:20
Honda have invested heaps, and have gotten publicity. Lots of it. While its been bad, its still been publicity, so they've had a lot of success so far.
Perhaps next year the engine will work, which would please the car team they are supplying.
#48
Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:02
It sort of mystifies me how they didn't learn anything for a whole year with the merc engine right infront of there noses.
I understand that merc didn't let macca touch the engine but hey its right infront of you .
They need a new design this is obvious from arai talking about combustion chamber optimization etc.
this would explain bad fuel consumption and its energy harvesting is a major issue also this would make the fuel consumption worse if this side of it is crap.
I do expect them to get way better by years end
#49
Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:17
Yes they could have been more assertive in demanding a more convention rear end thus reducing overheating and PU problems altogether.
#50
Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:21
Other than a click-bait title, what can be said here that cannot be discussed in the McLaren Honda thread?