Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The fate of McLaren and Mercedes - 2009 onwards


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 dierome1987

dierome1987
  • Member

  • 92 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:39

I've been rooting for McLaren since the Mika days and I've never seen this team in such bad shape.

 

From the bland livery to the awful engine, it's such a sad decline.

 

And the worst part, it all seems to have been self-inflicted. It all started when Martin Whitmarsh facilitated a deal to give Mercedes engines to Brawn GP.

 

That friendly gesture is what ultimately triggered Honda becoming the Mercedes era - McLaren and McLaren becoming the 2007-2008 Honda works team. McLaren lost Lewis, Paddy Lowe, most of its sponsors and the Mercedes engine deal after that.

 

It's kind of depressing that many of the factors that make Mercedes so successful today were once part of the McLaren team.

 

I wonder what McLaren (and F1) would look like if Martin Whitmarsh hadn't come up with the idea of giving Mercedes engines to Brawn GP?



Advertisement

#2 SealTheDiffuser

SealTheDiffuser
  • Member

  • 2,416 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:46

excuse me?

 

Mercedes would have parted from McLaren anyway I think. Ron was the problem me thinks.


Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 02 July 2015 - 09:47.


#3 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 44,257 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:49

I've been rooting for McLaren since the Mika days and I've never seen this team in such bad shape.

From the bland livery to the awful engine, it's such a sad decline.

And the worst part, it all seems to have been self-inflicted. It all started when Martin Whitmarsh facilitated a deal to give Mercedes engines to Brawn GP.

That friendly gesture is what ultimately triggered Honda becoming the Mercedes era - McLaren and McLaren becoming the 2007-2008 Honda works team. McLaren lost Lewis, Paddy Lowe, most of its sponsors and the Mercedes engine deal after that.

It's kind of depressing that many of the factors that make Mercedes so successful today were once part of the McLaren team.

I wonder what McLaren (and F1) would look like if Martin Whitmarsh hadn't come up with the idea of giving Mercedes engines to Brawn GP?

depends on if Merc wanted to have a own team or if they just took the opportunity with Brawn. As far as I know is that Mercedes anyway wanted to split from McLaren after spy gate. So it wouldn't have made any difference. Just one exception: Vettel would be now a five times WDC and Button would probably have never won the championship and probably never drive for McLaren.

#4 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 6,829 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 02 July 2015 - 10:08

I've been rooting for McLaren since the Mika days and I've never seen this team in such bad shape.

 

From the bland livery to the awful engine, it's such a sad decline.

 

And the worst part, it all seems to have been self-inflicted. It all started when Martin Whitmarsh facilitated a deal to give Mercedes engines to Brawn GP.

 

That friendly gesture is what ultimately triggered Honda becoming the Mercedes era - McLaren and McLaren becoming the 2007-2008 Honda works team. McLaren lost Lewis, Paddy Lowe, most of its sponsors and the Mercedes engine deal after that.

 

It's kind of depressing that many of the factors that make Mercedes so successful today were once part of the McLaren team.

 

I wonder what McLaren (and F1) would look like if Martin Whitmarsh hadn't come up with the idea of giving Mercedes engines to Brawn GP?

If that's true, this must be 1999 revisited.

 

So Vettel 9xWDC by 2021?

 

That'd cheer Ron up :)



#5 Jon83

Jon83
  • Member

  • 5,341 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 02 July 2015 - 10:19

Was losing the likes of Paddy Lowe so bad? McLaren had a fair few seasons of mediocrity with him around.



#6 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 44,257 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:05

Was losing the likes of Paddy Lowe so bad? McLaren had a fair few seasons of mediocrity with him around.

I think Lowe was not so bad to losing him. But they lost the Merc engine (especially the works team advantage) and they failed to replace a driver like Hamilton (first with Perez than with Magnussen) and in the meantime they lost sponsors (because of the departure of Mercedes and in the case of Hugo Boss aparentely because of Hamiltons departure).



#7 OvDrone

OvDrone
  • Member

  • 16,115 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:25

Ah, Whitmarsh... Should of known.



#8 MJ999

MJ999
  • Member

  • 252 posts
  • Joined: September 13

Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:32

Mercedes always wanted to have more control over McLaren and Ron for obvious reasons always resisted so relations were never great between the 2 companies and moreover Mercedes was left fuming when McLaren decided to launch their own road going sports car which was in direct competition with SLR.

 

In conclusion there were multiple reasons why they went their separate ways.



#9 Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86
  • Member

  • 2,573 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:43

Sorry OP but you are quite wrong. Merc wanted to buy a team, the wanted to buy McLaren but McLaren resisted as they wanted to remain independent and wanted to make their own sports cars. A split was obviously going to happen, it was just one of those things. It's nobody's fault.

#10 dierome1987

dierome1987
  • Member

  • 92 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:12

I'm not sure they were really looking for a team. If that were the case, why didn't they just buy the Brackley operation from Honda at the end of 2008? I pretty much doubt Mercedes wanted a works team after the financial meltdown of that year. It was all pretty oportunistic, they wanted to take advantage of the sudden success of Brawn GP. 

 

It's obvious the relationship between Mercedes and McLaren was not the best, especially after spygate. The thing is, allowing Brawn GP to have Mercedes engines facilitated the deal later that year.

 

As to the "what if" scenario, I agree that Vettel would have been 2009 WDC. It would have been a Red Bull walkover, far worst that what we saw in later years. 

Brawn GP would have raced with rebadged (or unbadged? LOL) Honda engines and would have finished 3rd or 4th in the CC. Sadly, the team would have foiled at the end of the season. In addition, Schumacher would have never made a return.

 

McLaren, on the other hand, would have kept a Mercedes works deal until the end of the V8 Formula. I suspect Mercedes would have formed a works team for the hybrid V6 Turbo era, a team that, ironically enough, would probably be performing at McLaren Honda levels right now.



#11 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:19

 

And the worst part, it all seems to have been self-inflicted. It all started when Martin Whitmarsh facilitated a deal to give Mercedes engines to Brawn GP.

 

 

That sneeky Whitmarsh guy.... fooling his own Team Principal!

 

(remember Ron was still TP  at the start of 2009)


Edited by scheivlak, 02 July 2015 - 12:24.


#12 dierome1987

dierome1987
  • Member

  • 92 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 14:12

That sneeky Whitmarsh guy.... fooling his own Team Principal!

 

(remember Ron was still TP  at the start of 2009)

 

Check this out:

 

http://www.independe...ip-1783434.html



#13 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 02 July 2015 - 14:37

 

And the worst part, it all seems to have been self-inflicted. It all started when Martin Whitmarsh facilitated a deal to give Mercedes engines to Brawn GP.

 

 

I'm sure this was discussed previously  :)

 

Anyhow Mercedes was not happy with McLaren anyway, there is little McLaren could have done...

 

Don't forget McLaren "gave" 100m to the FIA that they didn't need to -- that could have been spent on car development!   ;)   ;)  Not small change by any means...



#14 03011969

03011969
  • Member

  • 656 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 02 July 2015 - 14:43

Whilst it's unlikely to be down to a single factor, Spygate was presumably one of the key reasons for Mercedes wanting to move some of their eggs out of the McLaren basket.

 

I'm not sure I'd blame Whitmarsh for that sordid debacle.



#15 LuckyStrike1

LuckyStrike1
  • Member

  • 8,681 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 02 July 2015 - 14:56

Ah I love me a thread about McLaren that clearly states from the beginning its Martin Whitmarsh or Sam Michael or boths fault McLaren are where they are. 



#16 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 8,597 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 02 July 2015 - 15:09

excuse me?

 

Mercedes would have parted from McLaren anyway I think. Ron was the problem me thinks.

 

I wouldn't say it was a "problem", per se. Depends on which perspective you're looking at it from, I guess. 



#17 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 7,073 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 02 July 2015 - 16:46

That friendly gesture is what ultimately triggered Honda becoming the Mercedes era - McLaren and McLaren becoming the 2007-2008 Honda works team. McLaren lost Lewis, Paddy Lowe, most of its sponsors and the Mercedes engine deal after that.

 

No it wasn't.

 

The underlying issue here is that Mercedes did the math and realised it was far more cost effective to own its own team rather than merely supply engines, and that Ron Dennis refused to let them buy into McLaren.

 

There were loads of reasons why Mercedes chose Brawn in particular and the engine deal was only a small factor, only in so far as they got in touch directly with people at Brackley.

 

Brawn had great modern facilities Honda had built.  They were debt free and weren't owned by a multibillionaire with a huge ego or a car company demanding full asking price.  By the time Mercedes started to look for a team to buy there were plenty of valuable homeless sponsors like Petronas looking for a partner.  There were no complicating issues to delay purchasing negotiations.  And they were British based.

 

Once Mercedes had its own team there was no reason for McLaren to remain a works team.  Once they weren't works any more it made no financial sense for McLaren to stay with Mercedes if they could find a works deal elsewhere which they did.  Whether the team was run by Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh wouldn't have made any difference.



#18 Hyatt

Hyatt
  • Member

  • 1,561 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 02 July 2015 - 17:00

well its not that before 2009 everything was rosy for McMerc ... they grossly underperformed, 4 titels in 15 years?  :down:  something had to happen ...



#19 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 02 July 2015 - 17:08

Ron Dennis refused to let them buy into McLaren.

 

Let's be accurate. They did buy into McLaren - a minority holding.  Ron jibbed at letting them buy overall control.



Advertisement

#20 LuckyStrike1

LuckyStrike1
  • Member

  • 8,681 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 02 July 2015 - 17:19

And Brawn GP was without an engine supplier and in a dire state. Don't think anyone wanted to see that team dissapear from F1. 

 

One of Mercedes, Toyota, Ferrari, Renault and BMW had to supply them with an engine for 2009. At the time Mercedes was most suitable for that, or could was the one supplier who could do it quickly. 

 

Neither Whitmarsh nor Dennis was in charge of Mercedes, so little they could do despite any theoretical clauses of veto for choice of customer teams. Mercedes was already supplying Force India at the time and no one believed Brawn would be a factor in 2009, even if that would have been a factor in the decision, and for the good of F1 it was vital one engine manufacturer could supply Brawn. 

 

McLaren would have looked about what they look now or last year, give or take, with or without Mercedes engines to Brawn. 

 

Of course not a popular opinion since there seems to be a rule to always blame Whitmarsh and Sam Michael for most things F1 if Bernie or Red Bull can't be blamed. 



#21 dierome1987

dierome1987
  • Member

  • 92 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 18:26

And Brawn GP was without an engine supplier and in a dire state. Don't think anyone wanted to see that team dissapear from F1. 

 

One of Mercedes, Toyota, Ferrari, Renault and BMW had to supply them with an engine for 2009. At the time Mercedes was most suitable for that, or could was the one supplier who could do it quickly. 

 

Neither Whitmarsh nor Dennis was in charge of Mercedes, so little they could do despite any theoretical clauses of veto for choice of customer teams. Mercedes was already supplying Force India at the time and no one believed Brawn would be a factor in 2009, even if that would have been a factor in the decision, and for the good of F1 it was vital one engine manufacturer could supply Brawn. 

 

McLaren would have looked about what they look now or last year, give or take, with or without Mercedes engines to Brawn. 

 

Of course not a popular opinion since there seems to be a rule to always blame Whitmarsh and Sam Michael for most things F1 if Bernie or Red Bull can't be blamed. 

 

I'm not really blaming Martin Whitmarsh for McLaren's current state. In other words, I don't think he had the intention of bringing McLaren to the point where it is now, or foresee what was gonna happen when he brokered the Brawn GP - Mercedes engine deal. But from a merely causal perspective, it was exactly what brought the Brackley operation and Mercedes closer together, which is somewhat unfortunate for McLaren.

 

I do think it was mistake for Martin to strike a deal with Honda out of pure nostalgia of the Senna days. But I guess that's a completely different issue.


Edited by dierome1987, 02 July 2015 - 18:31.


#22 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 02 July 2015 - 18:48

Yes, I know that Ross asked Martin, and that Martin went to Stuttgart. However, at that very moment Ron was still the TP and responsible for Martin's actions.

 

There is one interesting aspect: Ron stepped down as a TP (though he remained in charge overall) at the same time the Brawn deal was announced.



#23 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 11,162 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 02 July 2015 - 18:58

It goes way too far to blame Mclaren's demise on the things the OP mentioned.

 

It is true that things would have worked out differently if Brawn GP was unsuccessful in 2009.

 

Norbert Haug would not have been able to make the case to the Mercedes board to buy Brawn GP.

 

But again, only McLaren can be blamed for their woes in the chassis and aero department over the past 7 years. Nothing to do with Mercedes leaving.



#24 realracer200

realracer200
  • Member

  • 1,753 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 02 July 2015 - 22:25

ROFL at this thread, forum logic at its absolute best. :rotfl:



#25 taran

taran
  • Member

  • 4,425 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 03 July 2015 - 07:41

I think McLaren expected Brawn to become a second Force India, e.g. a mid field team which would buy hardware/services from McLaren, thereby creating a second revenue stream. That would have been a smart business decision.

 

Unfortunately (for McLaren), Honda had built a rocketship for 2009 and it allowed Brawn to find a buyer for the team around and rebuild it into a top team.