194 replies to this topic

[Jordan44]

I don't really see the problem with this per se, some of the most memorable seasons were fought out between the two guys in the clearly fastest car. If the team is sure to win a title either way it allows them to let the guys race, which is a problem if another team is close.

 

The on-track racing between our two team mates has been great this season, right? There's no comparison to the 3 drivers in 3 different cars we had in Formula E fighting for the championship up until the last corner. The problem with inter-team battles is that one team mate will always be better than the other over the course of a season. Car performance can alter that.

Edited by J0rd4n, 03 July 2015 - 22:48.

[johnmhinds]

I find it hard to believe that they can't have a system that doesn't involve them changing the rules half way through the season, every frigging year.

 

Yet again we have rushed and poorly thought out ideas being forced into the sport even though most of them are the opposite of what the fans surveys just said.

 

And yet again not one sodding thing has been done about controlling the spiralling costs.

[johnmhinds]

The on-track racing between our two team mates has been great this season, right? There's no comparison to the 3 drivers in 3 different cars we had in Formula E fighting for the championship up until the last corner. The problem with inter-team battles is that one team mate will always be better than the other over the course of a season. Car performance can alter that.

 

That's not a "problem" thats just the result of a competitive sport? Of course one guy is going to beat the other...

[BRK]

Maybe that's exactly what the current season needs. Most people I know who used to watch have given up already. Not great for the sport, I guess.

[Okyo]

Brilliant news, for once. Any idea when was driver starting aid implemented in to this sport? As a a fan for the last 10 years, having a hard time knowing what to expect, so would be glad to see some videos of it.

[Laster]

Most of these I like, one I'm concerned about. I'm glad they'll be getting rid of all those launch control systems at race starts and leave it to the drivers to do. Far too often this season I've looked at the positions after the first lap only to see one perhaps two drivers managing to gain places at the start. So getting rid of launch control should make starts more important and unpredictable. I'm also glad they're allowing honda an extra power unit, it should save some blushes for at least one more race weekend, because throwing penalty after penalty at them was just silly.

The only thing that could potentially be bad in my eyes is the added aerodynamic force, however it was mentioned in the practice coverage that they're looking at ground effect which has significantly less impact on cars following behind. So if that's the direction they go, it may yet create closer racing.

[Seanspeed]

I find it hard to believe that they can't have a system that doesn't involve them changing the rules half way through the season, every frigging year.

None of these changes should impact the competitive order of things, so I don't really think that should be a sticking point.

[wj_gibson]

There's is far too often in this sport an attitude of "will this do?" among those responsible for defining the rules, and an ill-conceived notion that things were vaguely better some time in the past, without understanding *why* the sport connected more with its fan base in the past (clue - F1 did not develop a devoted following in the 1980s because the drivers had to make manual starts).

The sport is essentially too remote, too self-important and too arrogant for its own good. That's the issue there and then as far as I'm concerned. The engines and electronics have little to do with it.

[KnucklesAgain]

The on-track racing between our two team mates has been great this season, right? There's no comparison to the 3 drivers in 3 different cars we had in Formula E fighting for the championship up until the last corner. The problem with inter-team battles is that one team mate will always be better than the other over the course of a season. Car performance can alter that.

 

Well if Merc is too uptight that is a problem, but it's not because the winning team is predictable. Edit: And Ham is hardly running away with it. If your attention span does not last for a whole season maybe it's not the sport for you.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 July 2015 - 09:17.

[Jordan44]

Well if Merc is too uptight that is a problem, but it's not because the winning team is predictable. Edit: And Ham is hardly running away with it. If your attention span does not last for a whole season maybe it's not the sport for you.

Of course it does. I support what Merc have done, I'm just speaking from the view point of everyone else which I completely understand. At the moment no, but if we see a 5 race winning streak like last year then he will run away with it. The season so far mirrors what we've seen last year really.

Edited by J0rd4n, 04 July 2015 - 09:31.

[KnucklesAgain]

Of course it does. I support what Merc have done, I'm just speaking from the view point of everyone else which I completely understand. At the moment no, but if we see a 5 race winning streak like last year then he will run away with it. The season so far mirrors what we've seen last year really.

 

I like that we got to see seasons like Senna vs Prost at McLaren with them winning everything. Sure there's no guarantee for something like this to happen, but to me part of the beauty of F1 is that things were often allowed to work out the way they would. Like in football this means that some games/seasons will be boring, but you also get the occasional gem. I prefer this compared to artificially keeping things close for the show. As for Formula E, I'm sure you know why it was close - they have a spec car. If you don't have a spec car there is always the chance of a team running away with it, but that's still better than spec cars.

 

Edit: And while I understand Merc made sure that they would win 2014, I'd love for them to allow freedom now. They will win both titles even if they let the drivers go at it and it would be good for their image. (Most of their new road cars are trying to shake their "only old or stuffy people buy Mercs" image, so the F1 team could go with the flow)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 July 2015 - 09:53.

[grunge]

Are you guys seriously ever happy?...I mean yes,i dont see the point of bringing changes mid season, but if i like those changes, heck yes im all for them..anything to improve the current stalemate.
Manual starts are obviously welcome...it means we will have more messups at the start, causing the Mercs and Ferraris/Williams to fall back on the first lap and then fight through the traffic..also it should give us a better measure of driver ability to handle throttle input and tire spin..right now they just floor it as soon as the 5 lights go.

Freedom with tire selection is again only going to be good..we've seen every other weekend being marred by a Ferrari/Williams struggling to get any grip on the harder compound..it will also mean more chance of contrasting strategies at the front...i hope they plan to completely strip off the mandatory 2 compound rule come 2016..

More downforce, well i dont know what to make of that at this point.depends on the power regulations whether they get changed too or not.

And comments like it will favor one merc driver over another and thus anger one group of fans, and spoil the show somehow, i honestly dont even know what to say to that...that argument makes zero sense on any level unless u just tune in to watch one particular driver win and are paranoid that every rule change can potentially cut down on his dominance.

Edited by grunge, 04 July 2015 - 10:34.

[DaddyCool]

This coaching / radio restriction reminds me of team orders, it cannot be properly enforced.

 

"Daniel turn the engine to mode 4, to prevent a safety issue" 

"Not allowed to tell you that Lewis, but yes we will have spaghetti for dinner by the way"

"Red V8 meteorology tells that it might rain 5 minutes"

 

*wink, wink*

[pdac]

Loss of EBD and more weight too. The V6 Hybrids aren't that much more powerful than the V8s. The loss of these things is far greater. Different track layout in 2010 too.

 

Fans don't want quick lap times. They want to see exciting racing. I don't care that these cars are slower, just make them interesting.

 

What I think people want to see is cars looking fast - seeing drivers struggling to control the speed. They don't need to be the fastest if it looks lke the drivers are on the ragged edge.

[superden]

Remove the technology for 2-way comms altogether. Allow the pitwall to speak to the driver to notify them of accidents/debris etc, assuming drivers are like Mr Magoo and can't see all the brightly coloured flags. If a driver can't get a car round a lap without being given a constant stream of information, maybe they shouldn't be driving in the ****ing first place.

No driver needs radio communication. This is amply demonstrated by the fact that a pit-to-car radio failure has never led directly to a serious accident or injury. Ever.

Edited by superden, 04 July 2015 - 11:33.

[Jordan44]

Remove the technology for 2-way comms altogether. Allow the pitwall to speak to the driver to notify them of accidents/debris etc, assuming drivers are like Mr Magoo and can't see all the brightly coloured flags. If a driver can't get a car round a lap without being given a constant stream of information, maybe they shouldn't be driving in the ****ing first place.

No driver needs radio communication. This is amply demonstrated by the fact that a pit-to-car radio failure has never led directly to a serious accident or injury. Ever.

That would never happen for safety reasons.

[superden]

That would never happen for safety reasons.

As above, there is no safety reason.

[Jordan44]

As above, there is no safety reason.

So if the driver has a serious issue with the car he can't ask the team what to do?

[superden]

So if the driver has a serious issue with the car he can't ask the team what to do?

Are drivers really incapable of making a decision without a committee these days? Serious issue with the car? If it's broken, get back to the pits, or stop. Car on fire? Stop and let the marshals do their job, the pitwall can't help in that scenario anyway.

Again, as above, flags exist for a reason. If they must, the pitwall or race director can speak to the drivers to advise specifically of accidents or debris. The team know more about the status of the car anyway, so one way comms would still allow them to tell the driver to stop.

There is no valid 'safety' reason.

Edited by superden, 04 July 2015 - 12:38.

[chipmcdonald]

You, maybe I'm crazy, but I thought they were already technically supposed to be "manual starts" anyhow....

 

They're out of their minds.   Obviously they're operating under the principle that they can't change sacred cows because they've been TOLD that (engines, gearboxes) so instead, to make it appear that they're "doing something"..... we get "this".

 

I'm all for no driver coaching during the race, but again.... what did I miss, I thought they'd already ruled on that??

 

Meanwhile, DRS, crappy engines, a penalty festival...  the way penalties are going, Alonso and Button are going to have to start the Interlagos race from the starting line in Melbourne.

 

The thing is, F1 has now gone backward so badly that it's crossed a line marked "Too Stupid to Endure".  I'm not really sure I can watch next year.  It's grating on my nerves enough that they're not just rev-limited, but fuel flow limited - a RACE CAR.  And DRS.  AND goofy tires.  AND "power units" that have a mind of their own.  AND parc ferme.  AND ...

 

 

[PayasYouRace]

To be honest I'd rather they keep the radio and ban the telemetry. It's the latter that leads to driver coaching over the radio because it gives the team every little reason why their driver is losing or gaining time round the track.

With the radio communication open, at least the driver would be able to report issues with the car or out on track and inform the team if he intends to pit, etc. Similarly the team could keep the driver informed of what the rest of the field is doing, what the incoming weather is like if there's damage he can't see, etc. A talented engineer could even help the driver sort out an issue just from the description the driver gives, which I think is good. At the moment it's just about reading numbers on a screen and relaying an instruction to the driver.

I think it would reward talent and good team play.

[BoschKurve]

There should be a concern for drivers stalling and then getting rear ended by unsighted cars further down the field, otherwise I don't know much that will change. Unfortunately teams always prepare for changes like these and in a few races nobody would know the difference. 

 

 

Yeah, EBD was probably worth over 1-2 seconds. I think the turbos are definitely a good deal faster than the old engines, they're as much as 15-20 kph faster at the end of some straights. 

 

Faster because of reduced drag.

 

Max power is relatively the same, only difference is where the power is delivered in the powerband. There's more power at lower RPM's than there was with the V8's. 

[turssi]

So this is why certain stakeholders spoke against the Strategy Group recently. Could also explain certain tones of Todts latest interview.

[Marklar]

http://www.motorspor...revealed-by-fia

Some Information regarding the new start procedure and the radio clampdown from Spa onwards

[MarkWRX]

I would like the FIA / FOM to release transcripts of radio conversations between drivers and the pit wall during the race.  We get a 'cherry picked' and delayed version on the feed.  How much conversation is happening on the formation lap to adjust the clutch bite for the start? 

 

It used to be that drivers controlled wheel spin by balancing throttle input and clutch engagement.  With launch control, they engaged the launch control software and pressed or released a button (or in the case of Benneton, installed a sensor to read when the signal from the jump-start sensors stopped, then launched, which must have been a bit of a surprise to the driver sometime).  Now it appears that they have launch control with 'man in the middle' in which they engage software to control the clutch bite and throttle so when the lights go out, they release the clutch paddle and off they go.  We don't hear the revving of the engines like we used to.  They come up to the optimum RPM as determined by the engineers and loaded into the car. 

 

I don't have a problem with this, per se.  That's the way launch control works in cars you and I can buy.  WRXs have it and so does the VW GTI (well, you have to pay for it) and any number of supercars.  What I do have a problem with is the panicked, keening voices (well, mostly one German accented voice) asking the pit for advice on all the knobology in the car.

 

Drivers should learn to use the tools in the cockpit and should know how to interpret the car's status and adjust accordingly.  The top tier teams have a little screen in the steering wheel.  I am sure there is a YouTube video out there somewhere that shows how to adjust clutch bite.  They can watch it on the recon lap. 

[Marklar]

I would like the FIA / FOM to release transcripts of radio conversations between drivers and the pit wall during the race. We get a 'cherry picked' and delayed version on the feed. How much conversation is happening on the formation lap to adjust the clutch bite for the start?

It used to be that drivers controlled wheel spin by balancing throttle input and clutch engagement. With launch control, they engaged the launch control software and pressed or released a button (or in the case of Benneton, installed a sensor to read when the signal from the jump-start sensors stopped, then launched, which must have been a bit of a surprise to the driver sometime). Now it appears that they have launch control with 'man in the middle' in which they engage software to control the clutch bite and throttle so when the lights go out, they release the clutch paddle and off they go. We don't hear the revving of the engines like we used to. They come up to the optimum RPM as determined by the engineers and loaded into the car.

I don't have a problem with this, per se. That's the way launch control works in cars you and I can buy. WRXs have it and so does the VW GTI (well, you have to pay for it) and any number of supercars. What I do have a problem with is the panicked, keening voices (well, mostly one German accented voice) asking the pit for advice on all the knobology in the car.

Drivers should learn to use the tools in the cockpit and should know how to interpret the car's status and adjust accordingly. The top tier teams have a little screen in the steering wheel. I am sure there is a YouTube video out there somewhere that shows how to adjust clutch bite. They can watch it on the recon lap.

f1 fanatic is publishing every wednesday after the race the broadcastet team radio (which is just a little part of all messages). You're getting an idea by reading every transcript which information they get in the prestart/formation lap.

[AustinF1]

More downforce means more turbulent air, so less close racing. They've clearly landed on 'Mid season rule change' on my monopoly board.

They're talking about a wider car and wider front wing with a wider neutral area in the middle of the wing--- which some aerodynamicists (sp?) feel will reduce the bad effects of following closely in 'dirty air'.

[AustinF1]

They are talking about "floor shape" in that press release so maybe they are talking about ground effects, which wouldn't be so bad if they obtain more downforce that way

The only concerns I've heard about ground effect aero is that it tends to let go much more quickly and drastically when there's a problem. True, or not? 

 

If true, is there a way to lessen that effect using ground effect floor tunneling in conjunction with very basic front and rear wings to mitigate to some extent the effects of a sudden loss of ground effect downforce?

[Vettelari]

So for the first time since Merc domination began, a team's cars (Williams) were able to jump over both Mercs at the start of a race and suddenly they want to change the entire process again?

 

What an awfully funny coincidence! Ha ha!

[TomNokoe]

The changes are great, but fickle Pirelli tyres will just turn it into a lottery

[johnmhinds]

So for the first time since Merc domination began, a team's cars (Williams) were able to jump over both Mercs at the start of a race and suddenly they want to change the entire process again?

 

What an awfully funny coincidence! Ha ha!

 

They were talking about these changes before the Silverstone race.

Edited by johnmhinds, 10 July 2015 - 16:58.

[peroa]

No change really then, except for the number of bite-point finds...

[northanmonkee2]

FIA Formula One World Championship

The WMSC has approved the rule adjustments proposed by the F1 Strategy Group and approved by the F1 Commission. These are:

-        The simplification of the power unit penalties, ensuring that the most a driver can be penalised is to be demoted to the rear of the grid – this will eliminate penalties during the race for these infractions.

-        New power unit manufacturers to F1 will receive an extra power unit for each driver to use throughout Grands Prix for the season, bringing the total to five – one more than the existing power unit suppliers. This will be applied retrospectively to Honda.

These changes to the sporting regulations will come into force with immediate effect.

The provisional calendar for the 2016 FIA Formula One World Championship was approved:

April 3

Australia

April 10

China

April 24

Bahrain

May 1

Sochi

May 15

Spain

May 29

Monaco

June 12

Canada

June 26

UK

July 3

Austria

July 17

Baku

July 31

Germany

August 7

Hungary

August 28

Belgium

September 4

Italy

September 18

Singapore

September 25

Malaysia

October 9

Japan

October 23

USA (Austin)

October 30

Mexico

November 13

Brazil

November 27

Abu Dhabi

http://www.fia.com/n...cil-2015-mexico

Edited by northanmonkee2, 10 July 2015 - 19:32.

[TomNokoe]

7 back-to-back weekends. Wow.

[Marklar]

Interesting that the GB GP is before Austria in June and Malaysia is back to September (somehow swapping with Sochi) Interesting also that we just have an 3 weeks break.

Edited by Marklar, 10 July 2015 - 19:55.

[PlatenGlass]

Am i completely missing the plot of the sport since i've been thinking LC and other utter crap was already banned since like 1949?

I thought LC was already banned as well. This sort of thing seems to happen in F1. Stuff gets "banned" and then you find it still exists (they probably don't write the rules properly). I remember in 2011, they banned the blown exhaust for the British GP, which Alonso won. Then they unbanned it again for the rest of the season, but they said it would be the rules for the next year (2012). Roll on 2012, and they were talking about banning blown exhausts for 2013...

Also there was some fuel irregularity with the Renault engines in the Brazilian GP in 1995 - Schumacher and Coulthard were allowed to keep their points, but the constructors lost their points. Then it was "made clear" just such a points separation wouldn't be allowed to happen again, but then in the Austrian GP in 2000, it did.

So just because something is supposedly explicitly banned it doesn't mean it won't crop up again a few years later, with everyone "forgetting" that it was banned.

[redraven9]

So what does this exactly mean? Bad starters will be worse, and good starters will be better?

[ANF]

I thought LC was already banned as well.

Launch control has been banned since 2004, and it wasn't just the clutch bite-point settings and various engine modes we see today, but a software that controlled the throttle, clutch, and upshifts at the push of a button.

Here's Nigel Mansell calling it "a total load of nonsense":

 

And here's a great start by Ferrari's software:

Edited by ANF, 10 July 2015 - 20:51.

[Fatgadget]

So what does this exactly mean? Bad starters will be worse, and good starters will be better?

Kwality!..It means absolutely bugger all lol!   

[ANF]

No change really then, except for the number of bite-point finds...

And apparently, the drivers will have to memorize all the start settings on the steering wheel, and they won't get any warning on the radio if the tyre and brake temperatures are a bit low.

[chhatra]

So there is no actual physical change to the start procedure, that's a wee bit disappointing.

I hope that for next year they get rid of anything automated in the process, including pulling away from pit stops too. No special start maps, just give the driver full control over the car.

Edited by chhatra, 10 July 2015 - 21:38.

[Clatter]

To be honest I'd rather they keep the radio and ban the telemetry. It's the latter that leads to driver coaching over the radio because it gives the team every little reason why their driver is losing or gaining time round the track.

With the radio communication open, at least the driver would be able to report issues with the car or out on track and inform the team if he intends to pit, etc. Similarly the team could keep the driver informed of what the rest of the field is doing, what the incoming weather is like if there's damage he can't see, etc. A talented engineer could even help the driver sort out an issue just from the description the driver gives, which I think is good. At the moment it's just about reading numbers on a screen and relaying an instruction to the driver.

I think it would reward talent and good team play.

That's not a bad idea, and it's road relevant.That's what the manufacturers say they want with these engines so how can they not like that?

[Exb]

FIA Formula One World Championship
The provisional calendar for the 2016 FIA Formula One World Championship was approved:
April 3 Australia     August 7 Hungary
April 10 Chin         August 28 Belgium
April 24 Bahrain    September 4 Italy
May 1 Sochi          September 18 Singapore
May 15 Spain        September 25 Malaysia
May 29 Monaco    October 9 Japan
June 12 Canada   October 23 USA (Austin)
June 26 UK          October 30 Mexico
July 3 Austria       November 13 Brazil
July 17 Baku        November 27 Abu Dhabi
July 31 Germany
http://www.fia.com/n...cil-2015-mexico

Where are the pre-season test dates

After guessing them for this year (OK I was 1 day out for the 1st test, I was hoping to be in Jerez for the 1st day but ended up being there for day 2  but spot on for the final test) I can't begin to try and work out when they will be - with the season starting a few weeks later and there only being the 2 tests it could be any time and how will they split them, 1 in Jerez and 1 in Barcelona, or both in Barcelona?  (at a guess I would go for test 1: Jerez/Barcelona 28 Feb-2 Mar, Test 2 Barcelona 17-20 March but I am definitely not gambling and booking this year before they are released)

Edited by Exb, 10 July 2015 - 22:39.

[Marklar]

Where are the pre-season test dates

After guessing them for this year (OK I was 1 day out for the 1st test, I was hoping to be in Jerez for the 1st day but ended up being there for day 2  but spot on for the final test) I can't begin to try and work out when they will be - with the season starting a few weeks later and there only being the 2 tests it could be any time and how will they split them, 1 in Jerez and 1 in Barcelona, or both in Barcelona?  (at a guess I would go for test 1: Jerez/Barcelona 28 Feb-2 Mar, Test 2 Barcelona 17-20 March but I am definitely not gambling and booking this year before they are released)

It is sheuduled for 1-4th March and 15th-18th March. Both in Barcelona. We will just have two test next year

[KnucklesAgain]

(...) (or in the case of Benneton, installed a sensor to read when the signal from the jump-start sensors stopped, then launched, which must have been a bit of a surprise to the driver sometime).  (...)

 

First time I am hearing this. May I ask for a source?

Edit: Thanks TC3000 for PM, we can avoid the OT here

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 July 2015 - 12:59.