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Soccer Is Un-American 400 @ Daytona


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#151 AustinF1

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 00:31

That's being passive aggressive.  You absolutely accused them of trading safety for money.  You admit you don't follow the sport, then you claim they haven't done enough. They done plenty but there is still more to go.  At these speeds with the way the cars develop there will always be room for improvement.  They do care about the safety of the drivers and the fans though your point of view doesn't square with that.

Reduction in downforce to slow the cars is something they are always working on to tame the cars at a plate track. The difficulty comes from the aero interaction between the cars.  The balance is being able to get the car so it handles well alone and also in packs.  What works well for one may not work well for the other.  F1 has that issue now, when they pull up on a guy, it washes out the front wing which makes not only passing overtaking    ;)  more difficult, it make it more dangerous because the car is more likely to develop understeer a push as the downforce is taken off the front of the car.  It's only been within the last 5 years or so that they seem to understand better the forces at work in packs of cars from an aero standpoint.  They are working both in tunnels (they rent Windshear) and using CFD to better understand what they can do to minimize risks and still provide for close racing.  One way they could start (and I reckon they will before the next plate race) is further limit the pushing of cars in a line.  The guys that were in the pack behind Dillion said they were being pushed and were pushing and that's what caused them to bunch up at the start.  It's also not only the doing of the mechanical configuration.  In the end there are humans that are driving these cars and they are doing all they can to win.  Many of them are far more aggressive than they realize particularly when after the fact they complain about what happened on the track.

Man, what is it about this board and people putting words in your mouth when they disagree with you? It's not being passive aggressive. It's just what the words say. I hoped it wasn't down to money. I feared that it was. Why is that so difficult to believe? Fearing something is not at all the same as making an accusation of same. It was absolutely not an accusation.

 

I didn't say I don't follow the sport. I said I don't follow it the way I have for most of my life, which is to say 'fanatically'. 

 

As for the rest, what you're describing is their efforts to figure out how cars work in packs rather than just getting rid of the pack racing. Everything they do points to a reticence to move away from pack racing. As I said above, that's fine, but if that's the way they want to go, then they need to do some work in other areas to accommodate it.

 

I don't think NASCAR doesn't care about its drivers or its fans. I believe they do. Hopefully they'll get on top of all of it and there'll be no need for conversations like these in the future.


Edited by AustinF1, 08 July 2015 - 02:07.


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#152 Wuzak

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 02:07

Perhaps the solution is to have less grippy tyres, so that much less of a lap can be taken flat?



#153 HP

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 02:33

After seeing the sequence that lead to Dillon's crash. Is there a way to prevent the chain reaction that happened? And to be clear, I'm not interested into appropriating blame, but how things can be made safer for everyone.There is a limit to what crash fences can hold up. Preventing cars to get in there is more effective.

 

What I mean: the other car spun out low, came up the road again, and then wacked into Dillon's car sideways to send him into the car next to him and there Dillon getting catapulted side to side into the air. Can the crash structures on the car not be able to absorb more of the energy, to prevent this type of situation where a is car being pushed up another car? Just wondering?

 

Also don't know how much it played a part, but Dillon just before the impact bumped into the car ahead of him, as those ahead of him braked because of the car spinning out. How did that figure into what happened?


Edited by HP, 08 July 2015 - 02:35.


#154 Afterburner

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 04:42

Man, what is it about this board and people putting words in your mouth when they disagree with you? It's not being passive aggressive. It's just what the words say. I hoped it wasn't down to money. I feared that it was. Why is that so difficult to believe? Fearing something is not at all the same as making an accusation of same. It was absolutely not an accusation.

It's not just this forum, mate. I blame the small-minded new-wave generation that feels the need to easily categorise people as white, black, gay, straight, pro-this, anti-that, or otherwise because it allows their lazy, selfish minds to spend less energy thinking about and understanding other people and ideas.

It's not that everyone who does this is one of these people, it's just that it's a remarkably easy trap to fall into in a society that seems increasingly keen to point out and exploit our differences--a move which, given human nature, has a greater tendency to divide than unite, in my opinion.

Just a quite possibly incorrect observation that isn't at all directed towards anyone in this thread. Carry on.

#155 jonpollak

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 06:01

Meanwhile.... Back OnTopic

http://www1.nyc.gov/...-champions.page
ttparade.gif
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 08 July 2015 - 06:13.


#156 kevinracefan

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 14:00

Bullet proof clear plastic fencing will one day be used to protect fans more from these types of accident. 
 
:eek:

have you seen the aftermath of 1 race on the bullet-proof windshields... they gat sandblasted so badly you can't see thru them..

it won't work for fans' viewing after a race or 2

Edited by kevinracefan, 08 July 2015 - 14:01.


#157 427MkIV

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 14:26

On another note, some sad news:

 

from jayski:

Buddy Baker has lung cancer; retiring from SiriusXM: Buddy Baker, whose storytelling and friendly demeanor made him a fan favorite, announced Tuesday night that a "huge tumor" in his lung is inoperable and he is leaving his role as a co-host of SirusXM NASCAR Radio, effective immediately. "For those who feel sorry, hey I'm 74 years old, have great friends, had a career," he said on "The Late Shift" on SiriusXM NASCAR Radio. "The toughest part for me is not being able to talk to some of our regulars that are almost like family. "There comes a time when you talk to the doctor and say what are my chances and there's a dead silence. I went how long. 'Well, we don't own the hotel, we don't know when we check out. It's something that we cannot fix." Baker then added: "Do not shed a tear. Give a smile when you say my name." The 74-year-old Baker won 19 races in what is now the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, including the 1980 Daytona 500. He made his series debut in 1959 and ran his final Cup race in 1992. The son of NASCAR Hall of Famer Buck Baker, the 6-foot-6 Baker was known as the "Gentle Giant" during his racing days. That same friendly style endeared him to fans when he worked on television after retiring. He served as a broadcaster for TNN and CBS. He started with SiriusXM NASCAR Radio in 2007.(NBCSports)(7-7-2015)



#158 John B

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 18:32

Even if there is a way to spread the cars out, there's still the issue of them being packed up by gwc finishes (which created the opportunity for multiple accidents that wouldn't happen in the past) and double file restarts. I'd be happy to see the restarts canned at all tracks as they are too often influenced by the line and factor into too many race outcomes.

Wouldn't be surprised if there's a fairly tame race at Talladega in the fall as that has happened after some plate races with bad wrecks.

Edited by John B, 08 July 2015 - 18:34.


#159 427MkIV

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 20:58

Reduction in downforce to slow the cars is something they are always working on to tame the cars at a plate track. The difficulty comes from the aero interaction between the cars.  The balance is being able to get the car so it handles well alone and also in packs.  What works well for one may not work well for the other.  F1 has that issue now, when they pull up on a guy, it washes out the front wing which makes not only passing overtaking    ;)  more difficult, it make it more dangerous because the car is more likely to develop understeer a push as the downforce is taken off the front of the car.  It's only been within the last 5 years or so that they seem to understand better the forces at work in packs of cars from an aero standpoint.  They are working both in tunnels (they rent Windshear) and using CFD to better understand what they can do to minimize risks and still provide for close racing.  One way they could start (and I reckon they will before the next plate race) is further limit the pushing of cars in a line.  The guys that were in the pack behind Dillion said they were being pushed and were pushing and that's what caused them to bunch up at the start.  It's also not only the doing of the mechanical configuration.  In the end there are humans that are driving these cars and they are doing all they can to win.  Many of them are far more aggressive than they realize particularly when after the fact they complain about what happened on the track.

 

Would it help spread out the cars if they didn't all have the same body with tightly regulated engines and drivetrains? In the early days of restrictor plates, before the common template and COT, the packs were a lot smaller and the cars weren't as close together. I don't need 20+ cars finishing on the lead lap, just a handful that can run each other down and pass each other. If just 8-10 cars finish on the lead lap, but they can pass for the lead on the track at times other than on a restart and without drafting help, then I'm happy with that.

 

I also have no problem with races finishing under caution. I would love for GWC finishes to end. All they do is tear up equipment.



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#160 piszkosfred

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 21:08

There is only one solution and that is to reconfigure the 2 tracks. Nascar tried dozens of rule packages but everything stayed the same, cars get airborne and the big one is always there. Any other track would have changed long time ago. I'm not really a big fan of Newman but he was spot on: Nascar wanted this, that's it. It was just pure luck that no spectators died. But that luck will run out once... 



#161 August

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 21:16

Obviously something should be done. But also, racing must continue, those who don't accept the risks can go away.

 

Improving the fencing would be one thing, you don't want a car to tear the fence and possibly land to the grandstands. Of course, I'm not sure how much they could improve the fencing but it's something they need to seek to improve.

 

Another thing is how to avoid collisions leading to this. Having less pack racing might help but would NASCAR want to have less pack racing? Having less grip would enable drivers to make some gaps, thus reducing pack racing. Getting rid of GWC would be another way to reduce pack racing, especially as after a GWC drivers are going all-out for win.

 

But it's really if NASCAR wants to change racing to make this kind of collisions less likely. Otherwise it's just how to minimize the risks of such collisions, how to improve the cars' safety, how to improve the tracks' safety.

 

And even if you do everything to improve safety, some danger will remain still. Going 200+ mph is dangerous, especially when you're racing other cars. That's just something you have to accept, but not use as an excuse to do nothing to improve safety.



#162 AustinF1

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 21:23

Well, I guess piszkosfred's & August's posts are a perfect segue for this:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119899

 

NASCAR to evaluate safety changes following Austin Dillon crash

 

 

"Anything that we can do to continue to make the racing as safe as possible and have the fans in as safe an environment as possible, we will do that heading into Talladega," said O'Donnell.

 

Dillon escaped the crash with bruising and believes NASCAR will find ways to reduce the risk of cars getting airborne without fundamentally altering the style of pack racing seen on the large ovals.

"We can do some things to prevent these accidents for sure," said Dillon.

"They'll look at the car and figure out ways to keep them on the ground.

"We can do things to help slow down some of the wrecks and that might keep us from catching air.

"We can give them a good opinion to make the racing still stay the same."



#163 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 05:19

Amazing.

Never in a million years would I guess that NASCAR would evaluate safety changes after this incident.

Stunning news.



#164 AustinF1

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 08:43

Yet it's interesting that, even immediately following an event like that, Dillon thinks NASCAR will focus on ways to keep the high-speed pack racing rather than examining that and opening the door to possibly changing it. Which was my point.

 

Ryan Newman's reaction was interesting as well...

“NASCAR got what they wanted,” Newman told USA TODAY Sports. “That’s the end of it. Cars getting airborne, unsafe drivers, same old stuff. They just don’t listen.”

Newman has been railing against plate racing at Daytona and Talladega Superspeedway for years, earning a $50,000 fine five years ago after suggesting the Talladega race should be run as an exhibition and rebranded as event marketing.

Asked whether Dillon’s wreck might effect change, Newman referenced the death of RCR driver Dale Earnhardt on the last lap of the 2001 Daytona 500.

“They’ve had several events since then,” Newman said. “They just don’t pay attention to safety. Simple as that.”

http://nascartalk.nb...more-than-once/

Kurt Busch:

“I’m glad that we have night-time sessions for practice and qualifying (because) we get all day to think about how we’re going to end up all wrecking at the end,’’ Kurt Busch sarcastically told NASCAR Talk after the race. “It’s like a Kentucky Derby. It’s like a Preakness. It’s like a Belmont Stakes except there are 30 horses running down to the finish and the track is only wide for three at a time. Do the math.’

 

Joey Logano:

“There isn’t much good to say about what happened here tonight,” said reigning Daytona 500 winner Joey Logano, who was caught in multiple crashes Monday. “It is a product of the racing here.

“I just heard (Dillon) up in the catch fence, and motors were flying out of cars. That isn’t the first time that has happened here and it is just dumb that we allow it to happen more than once.”

A.J. Allmendinger:

I hope all the fans and @austindillon3 are ok. I don't know how many cars we need to keep sending into the grandstands before we fix this.

 

https://twitter.com/...951267428691968

 

Maybe they're wrong though. Who knows. O'Donnell, at least publicly, isn't eliminating any possibilities.

 

 

Interesting comments from Ray Evernham, too. He thinks reducing the speeds doesn't hold much promise and that they need to continue improving the catch fencing:

 

"I don't know that you're ever going to be able to avoid putting a car in the air unless you slow them down to 150 miles per hour," he said. "Then I'll guarantee that somebody is still going to tip over. Do you slow them down to 100 miles per hour?

"Any time you put cars on the track going that fast, somebody is going to get airborne. So, with that said, we've got to continue to work on the catchfences. I think the speeds should be kept under 200 because the more speed you add the more velocity you add. They're going to have to continue to look at how close do people need to be sitting to the racetrack and continue to work on the fences."

http://www.usatoday....acing/29862737/

 

Again, though, I'm not sure why all the sarcasm is necessary.  Ah, well. 


Edited by AustinF1, 09 July 2015 - 09:07.


#165 Atreiu

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 13:02

Make them slower?



#166 piszkosfred

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 13:28

Make them slower?

That will make the pack even closer to each other.



#167 jonpollak

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 13:51

Well.. Thank God that's resolved.

#168 Atreiu

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 14:05

That will make the pack even closer to each other.

 

Sure, but they wouldn't have enough speed/energy to fly and wreck a catchfence.



#169 OvDrone

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 18:25

There's one race. One goddamn race I miss a year of Nascar. And it had to be this one.



#170 Victor_RO

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 18:40

There's one race. One goddamn race I miss a year of Nascar. And it had to be this one.

 

I caught the finish at work before the morning status meeting. Woke up to go to work, checked Twitter first thing in the morning and went "wtf is this thing STILL GOING???"



#171 OvDrone

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 18:47

I caught the finish at work before the morning status meeting. Woke up to go to work, checked Twitter first thing in the morning and went "wtf is this thing STILL GOING???"

 

My roommate (who only watches Nascar and makes fun of Indycar) comes knockin' on my door at like 8orsomethingAM and was all like: 'DUDEYAGOTTASEETHIS'.

 

I forgot we were in Eastern Europe 'my god it's Monday morning and it's not even Le Mans wtf are you still doing you complete and utter Dale Jr. fanatic' timezone.

 

And I mainly forgone this thread, because as with the Fontana race, I have no clue whatsoever of how to improve pack/plate racing. I just read the McLaren/Honda thread for dem delicious, delicious tears.


Edited by OvDrone, 09 July 2015 - 18:48.


#172 nosaj100

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 00:11

That will make the pack even closer to each other.

 

Only if they can still hold it full throttle all the way around the track. They need to find a combination between aero downforce, tires, and drivetrain to where that can't happen. They went in the right direction a handful of years ago with some aero changes that broke up the large packs.The result was two cars tandem drafting. Personally I liked that more but overall, fans whined enough to where NASCAR scrapped it. Here's the secret though. NASCAR doesn't really care if tons of cars get torn up every restrictor plate race in a predictable under 10 laps to go "big one" so long as nothing gets in the stands and no one dies. They like the spectacle of 3 and even 4 cars wide  10 rows deep because a vocal portion of the fanbase loves it and the chaos that always ensues. It's not so much racing as it is a special event that they do a very good job of selling that. I think they're flirting with disaster by sticking with packs personally even if they've done a good job with safety (which they most certainly have) but its apparent to me they aren't going to break up the packs anytime soon. Otherwise they would have stuck with the tandem package and kept tweaking it. But I know what would have happened had they done that. The cars would get more strung out (because the tracks, Daytona and Talledega are too big) and fans will say its boring. They've got too much invested in Daytona being special for that so they stick with the spectacle of packs and do everything possible to avoid disaster while trying to maintain the status quo.


Edited by nosaj100, 10 July 2015 - 00:13.


#173 John B

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 02:04

And just four days later, the Kentucky truck race just ended after Ben Kennedy got turned into and damaged the catch fence on the front straight...

Edited by John B, 10 July 2015 - 11:51.


#174 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 02:11

Only if they can still hold it full throttle all the way around the track. They need to find a combination between aero downforce, tires, and drivetrain to where that can't happen. They went in the right direction a handful of years ago with some aero changes that broke up the large packs.The result was two cars tandem drafting. Personally I liked that more but overall, fans whined enough to where NASCAR scrapped it. Here's the secret though. NASCAR doesn't really care if tons of cars get torn up every restrictor plate race in a predictable under 10 laps to go "big one" so long as nothing gets in the stands and no one dies. They like the spectacle of 3 and even 4 cars wide  10 rows deep because a vocal portion of the fanbase loves it and the chaos that always ensues. It's not so much racing as it is a special event that they do a very good job of selling that. I think they're flirting with disaster by sticking with packs personally even if they've done a good job with safety (which they most certainly have) but its apparent to me they aren't going to break up the packs anytime soon. Otherwise they would have stuck with the tandem package and kept tweaking it. But I know what would have happened had they done that. The cars would get more strung out (because the tracks, Daytona and Talledega are too big) and fans will say its boring. They've got too much invested in Daytona being special for that so they stick with the spectacle of packs and do everything possible to avoid disaster while trying to maintain the status quo.

I think some people probably would say it's boring if they gain some separation. But what's weird to me is that I don't remember anyone saying it was boring back in the 70s, 80s & 90s when these guys really had to drive the cars in the turns, and the field stretched out as a result.



#175 Jim Thurman

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 19:18

I think some people probably would say it's boring if they gain some separation. But what's weird to me is that I don't remember anyone saying it was boring back in the 70s, 80s & 90s when these guys really had to drive the cars in the turns, and the field stretched out as a result.

 

Well, some thought Bill Elliott's domination on superspeedways was dull or boring, but, you're right, it wasn't called boring at the time because that's what racing was at the time. Unfortunately, after creating artificially tight competition, fans have grown used to that and going back would seem boring to them. It's like a genie that can't be put back in the bottle. I blame these damn kids, particularly Stonefeld and Hope  ;)  (and, yes, that last sentence is satire folks)



#176 CaptnMark

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 19:23

Make them slower?

 Hmm, follow F1's lead from a decade ago and put a chicane on one of the turns.



#177 biercemountain

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 19:49

 Hmm, follow F1's lead from a decade ago and put a chicane on one of the turns.

 

I like that. Make them use the bus stop like they do in the 24 hour race.

 

Paul



#178 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 20:12

And just four days later, the Kentucky truck race just ended after Ben Kennedy got turned into and damaged the catch fence on the front straight...

In completely different types of vehicles, on a flatter track, at slower speeds.

But hey, let's slow down stock cars anyway, that will solve everything...



#179 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 22:13

Yeah, I don't think slowing down the top speed is necessarily what they need, either. There are things you can do to stretch them out & break up the packs without slowing them down in the straights. 



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#180 SR388

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 22:54

I'm at Kentucky speedway.

#181 AustinF1

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 23:10

^^^Nice! Have fun...



#182 SR388

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 00:32

Thanks. The scanner is worth every penny at $35.95 + $10 for an extra headset!

#183 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 00:58

wondering, tech, why buy the headset?

#184 SR388

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 12:09

wondering, tech, why buy the headset?


You can listen to all pit to car communications. It's awesome.

#185 Andrew Hope

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 19:53

The grandstands should be on the inside of the track, but that's a huge waste of money at every oval you could try to switch at and a pain in the ass, so the best that could reasonably be expected to happen is that new NASCAR tracks are built with grandstands on the inside. But no one is building new NASCAR tracks, because the grandstands on the outside of the track are much emptier than they used to be. So sometimes, these few people who still do bravely soldier on to support a sport they love, sitting down and getting comfy in the (outside) grandstands with an XL Coke and a hot dog, they get a face full of engine parts.



#186 loki

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 20:15

The appeal of being able to see the entire track from most seats is big for circle track racing.  Putting the stands in the infield is a non starter not only for logistics reasons (crowd access, pit and garages) but stock car fans aren't going to pay to see the cars come by every 45 secs or so.  The solution is what Daytona is doing, build the stands higher, further back from the track.  The low seats next to the track are the cheapest because they have the most limited views.  When you build up you can get rid of the seats next to the fence and make the least expensive seats still the lowest.  You've shifted everything up, 100' or so from the track.


Edited by loki, 11 July 2015 - 20:15.


#187 jonpollak

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 20:23

Anyone feeling threadTucky ?
Have at it.
Jp

#188 Wuzak

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 00:48

In completely different types of vehicles, on a flatter track, at slower speeds.

But hey, let's slow down stock cars anyway, that will solve everything...

 

I think slowing the cars down in the corners for superspeedways could lead to better racing.

 

Why? Because if they are slowed enough in the corners then they may actually have to brake, rather than simply take it flat or have a slight lift. That means drivers will have to shift down a gear or two, and then re-accelerate. If the grip is lower then the acceleration phase becomes a way that two competitors may get separated, or the following car gets a chance to pass down the straight.

 

Who knows, if they do a good enough job they may be able to take away the restrictor plates.

 

Chicanes may also give the same effect.

 

What needs to be done is for NASCAR to get a few cars together and experiment.



#189 jonpollak

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 00:51

Chicanes... Yeah, that's gonna happen.
Jp

#190 Wuzak

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 00:55

Oh, and I would suggest that the slowing down only needs to be done at certain venues - namely the restrictor plate races.

 

The two ways are the tyres and the aero. The tyres are the easiest way to make the adjustment. Changing aero for two, or even a handful, of races is slightly more difficult (they could cut down the spoiler, or lay it back further to reduce downforce).



#191 Wuzak

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 00:56

Chicanes... Yeah, that's gonna happen.
Jp

 

I realise this. 

 

Certainly not for Daytona.



#192 JHSingo

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 01:13

I caught the finish at work before the morning status meeting. Woke up to go to work, checked Twitter first thing in the morning and went "wtf is this thing STILL GOING???"

 

And there was me thinking that the Daytona 24 was in January. :p



#193 John B

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 01:29

New rules package seems to be favourably received so far at KY now. The spoiler looks tiny after the original gen6.

#194 jonpollak

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 01:44

Yes John.
Cream rising to the top.
Jp

#195 loki

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 03:02

I think slowing the cars down in the corners for superspeedways could lead to better racing.

 

Why? Because if they are slowed enough in the corners then they may actually have to brake, rather than simply take it flat or have a slight lift. That means drivers will have to shift down a gear or two, and then re-accelerate. If the grip is lower then the acceleration phase becomes a way that two competitors may get separated, or the following car gets a chance to pass down the straight.

 

Who knows, if they do a good enough job they may be able to take away the restrictor plates.

 

Chicanes may also give the same effect.

 

What needs to be done is for NASCAR to get a few cars together and experiment.

Stock cars rarely shift more than one gear on the track these days. They gear the cars so they don't have to shift much once they get off pit road.  There have been thousands of hours dedicated to developing super speedway packages and safety over the years.  Likely tens of thousands.  They don't get a couple of cars together and try something out.  They model it in a sim, try results in a tunnel, model some more, more tunnel time then perhaps experiment on cars in a test situation.  Unless they are going to require significantly different engine packages for super speedways (which has about as much of a chance as adding a chicane to an oval, any oval) the plates are here to stay as long as they keep racing super speedways.  They have found that keeping the cars under 200 mph average speed helps.  It's just the race teams develop faster so what may have worked a few seasons or perhaps even last season may not work now to keep the cars slower.

 

With no disrespect toward anyone here offering suggestions, NASCAR has a very deep talent pool that has been doing this sort of thing for quite a while.  It's a complex process and simple answers from an Internet forum, let alone one that doesn't have particular experience with stock car racing and the history of development are going to be too simple and the participants not knowledgeable in the technical subject matter.  It's great forum fodder to discuss, but no one here is going to be able to come up with a solution that's simple enough to fit in a forum post.


Edited by loki, 12 July 2015 - 03:04.