Looking at a few tenuous-looking timed runs this year made me wonder if any of the British Hill Climb Championship runners would ever be given a go at FoS? Seems a shame not to, given that they'd be best qualified to show how it should be done.
It's doubtful they'd be fazed by Lord March's drive (other than it being maybe a lot wider than the confines of many BHC venues) - and that flint wall is nothing compared to the armco at Doune!
Graeme Wight, jr's last attempt (the last time a current hill climber attempted it?) was a good 2 seconds clear of this year's best, and judging by the amount that the outright hill records have tumbled over the last few years, I'd think as sub-40 would be easily achievable.
So. With the first British championship first running in 1947, 2017 would make a good year to celebrate.
I think after Nick Heidfeld's on the edge record run, LM has been scared to death that a car could end up in the crowd, hence no timed F1 runs. I think it would be great to see the proper hillclimb boys at the most heavily promoted hillclimb in the world.
The commentators were speculating along these lines during the timed shoot-out. A proper hillclimb single-seater ought to at least get close to Heidfeld's time. However, I suspect something somewhat more substantial than a few straw bales might be needed at the more challenging corners ...
The commentators were speculating along these lines during the timed shoot-out. A proper hillclimb single-seater ought to at least get close to Heidfeld's time. However, I suspect something somewhat more substantial than a few straw bales might be needed at the more challenging corners ...
Logically an unlimited hill climber would easily beat Heidfeld's time, but I think maybe the straw bales would be the showstopper.
Still, maybe an anniversary celebration would be a good place to see a few spirited demos?
True, so let's bring some of the European drivers over, they face hitting mountainsides if they get it wrong so a flint wall isn't going to hold much fear for them
Hillclimbers have run at FoS on at least two occasions (and did cause a little controversy). Discussed here: http://forums.autosp...ht#entry6358749 from around post 64 and onwards.
Given time to tune the cars to suit, I don't think Heidfeld's 'record' would then look so good.
I agree Chris, it would be fun to see the likes of Simone Faggioli and Christian Merli tackle the course (although it's still ridiculously short for them!.
Wouldn't it be a bit fast for the UK hill climbers? Most of our hills are pretty tight surely, compared to G'wood?
I think Goodwood probably compares closest with Shelsley or Gurston: both have (from memory) 150mph+ finish line speeds, and I can't see much of a change for the BHC boys & girls.
I thought I'd do a bit of daydreaming and look at a likely hill record, should the BHC ever be allowed to do it:
GWJ set his 42.90 time at Goodwood in 2003, the same year he set the (then) Shelsley record at 24.56.
Current Shelsley record is 22.58, set by Martin Groves in 2008: a 2-second reduction since 2003.
Another key thing to consider is that Junior set his time in a relatively small-capacity GR.51/51b, whereas a lot (but not all) of the current hill climb leaders in the UK are using circa 3.5-litre NME/Powertec/Judd/Cosworth engines, which since Graeme (semi) retired seem to be the way to go. But let's not forget Will Hall's AER turbo and Jos Goodyear's giant-killing supercharged 'busa machines - both are potent combinations on their day, as was Alex Summers the last few years in his DJ/s-c 'busa (apologies if I missed someone).
Any of these driver/engine combinations, with he right gearing, could easily beat the 2003 Goodwood time, and judging by the way hill records have reduced, my 'open to challenge' thoughts are that a time in the 38's would be on the cards.
I'm always puzzled by the timed runs anyway. Having been involved in organising what was the Bexhill 100, and the first FOS, I recall that as soon as you timed any run on a course, you had to fullfil a huge array of criteria, in essence, it became a motor racing event, and straw bales etc, didn't cut it.
I'm always puzzled by the timed runs anyway. Having been involved in organising what was the Bexhill 100, and the first FOS, I recall that as soon as you timed any run on a course, you had to fullfil a huge array of criteria, in essence, it became a motor racing event, and straw bales etc, didn't cut it.
Agreed: a local historic hill climb was nixed for this very reason. However I wouldn't want to probe too deep into the FoS arrangement, lest it put future arrangements at risk.
I mentioned this in another thread last year about having a Hillclimb "Celebration" [to avoid confusion with the FoS].....Sat, have genuine hillclimb cars from the past, not just those in RAC HillClimb Championship but also things like Jeff Goodliffe's Vitamin etc....then on the Sun, a round of the MSA Hillclimb Championship, maybe the MSA Sprint Championship as well.
Incidentally, I attended Barbon yesterday, Jos Goodyear smashed Scott Moran's 7 year hill record...was 20.50 now 20.08...he went through speed trap at 146 mph !!
I mentioned this in another thread last year about having a Hillclimb "Celebration" [to avoid confusion with the FoS].....Sat, have genuine hillclimb cars from the past, not just those in RAC HillClimb Championship but also things like Jeff Goodliffe's Vitamin etc....then on the Sun, a round of the MSA Hillclimb Championship, maybe the MSA Sprint Championship as well.
Incidentally, I attended Barbon yesterday, Jos Goodyear smashed Scott Moran's 7 year hill record...was 20.50 now 20.08...he went through speed trap at 146 mph !!
I noticed that: Jos does impossible things with that car.
And though I doubt it would ever be a round of the Championship (too many extra entries for a start), it is one of very few branches of top-level motorsport which seems to get ignored at FoS.
I mentioned this in another thread last year about having a Hillclimb "Celebration" [to avoid confusion with the FoS].....Sat, have genuine hillclimb cars from the past, not just those in RAC HillClimb Championship but also things like Jeff Goodliffe's Vitamin etc....then on the Sun, a round of the MSA Hillclimb Championship, maybe the MSA Sprint Championship as well.
Incidentally, I attended Barbon yesterday, Jos Goodyear smashed Scott Moran's 7 year hill record...was 20.50 now 20.08...he went through speed trap at 146 mph !!
I was at Barbon too and the quick cars were. as ever, amazing. I missed the next day's Harewood but last time I was there (May I think )the quickest car was 149 mph on the top straight and so I don't really think the holy ground of Goodwood would present too much difficulty .
On a wider note it was fascinating to read elsewhere how a first timer to Harewood (and to hills generally) was gobsmacked by the difference between road cars like Nissan GTRs and Ferrari 430s and proper hillclimb singe seaters. The top speed difference at Harewood between a Gould and a 430 is over 60 mph.... That's what you get with a Top Gear generation who judge cars by Stig times around Dunsfold - would have loved to have seen him punt a Jedi around there....
I was at Barbon too and the quick cars were. as ever, amazing. I missed the next day's Harewood but last time I was there (May I think )the quickest car was 149 mph on the top straight and so I don't really think the holy ground of Goodwood would present too much difficulty .
On a wider note it was fascinating to read elsewhere how a first timer to Harewood (and to hills generally) was gobsmacked by the difference between road cars like Nissan GTRs and Ferrari 430s and proper hillclimb singe seaters. The top speed difference at Harewood between a Gould and a 430 is over 60 mph.... That's what you get with a Top Gear generation who judge cars by Stig times around Dunsfold - would have loved to have seen him punt a Jedi around there....
I have to concur heartily: looking at the armchair enthusiasts' comments on various Doune onboard YouTube cams is entertaining: "Must be a fake" is a typical response.
Sadly there are too many 'enthusiasts' out there who never get beyond watching F1 on TV on a Sunday.
Looking at a few tenuous-looking timed runs this year made me wonder if any of the British Hill Climb Championship runners would ever be given a go at FoS? Seems a shame not to, given that they'd be best qualified to show how it should be done.
It's doubtful they'd be fazed by Lord March's drive (other than it being maybe a lot wider than the confines of many BHC venues) - and that flint wall is nothing compared to the armco at Doune!
Graeme Wight, jr's last attempt (the last time a current hill climber attempted it?) was a good 2 seconds clear of this year's best, and judging by the amount that the outright hill records have tumbled over the last few years, I'd think as sub-40 would be easily achievable.
So. With the first British championship first running in 1947, 2017 would make a good year to celebrate.
Likely to happen?
1) Putting the current BHC contenders on the FoS hill would give the MSA nightmares. Safety is currently the watchword and after several 'incidents' is being reviewed in all branches of the sport.
2) Heidfeld's record would be totally destroyed.
3) Not likely to happen as it would put too many F1 noses out of joint having some "amateurs" beating them.
Wouldn't it be a bit fast for the UK hill climbers? Most of our hills are pretty tight surely, compared to G'wood?
Craigantlet isn't tight! As for a bit fast the corner speed of the current BHC contenders would overcome any shortcomings on speed however they could always put in a slightly higher ratio gear set!
True, so let's bring some of the European drivers over, they face hitting mountainsides if they get it wrong so a flint wall isn't going to hold much fear for them
Hillclimbers have run at FoS on at least two occasions (and did cause a little controversy).
Discussed here: http://forums.autosp...ht#entry6358749
from around post 64 and onwards.
Given time to tune the cars to suit, I don't think Heidfeld's 'record' would then look so good.
I agree Chris, it would be fun to see the likes of Simone Faggioli and Christian Merli tackle the course (although it's still ridiculously short for them!.
At Escdorf last year there was only one European who beat the Brits and 'our boys' hadn't seen the hill previously whilst the Europeans had competed on it often. BTW the Europeans would also make mincemeat of Heidfeld's record.
I think my main issue is that, considering the FoS is fundamentally set up around a hill climb format, it seems strange that the one branch of the sport which represent such events, is ignored. we even have Drift and Time Attack cars represented these days - and timed in the latter case!
But the issue of 'timed' runs is BS too: a few of the current leaders, plus several historics could quite easily do spirited demonstration runs.
And yes Steve - F1 must be respected as the pinnacle of the sport, no matter how much we know it isn't!
And though I doubt it would ever be a round of the Championship (too many extra entries for a start), it is one of very few branches of top-level motorsport which seems to get ignored at FoS.
With the BHC regulations you could have the FoS as a round of the BHC but limit it to just the Championship contenders and exclude it from the Hillclimb Leaders (this already happens with Craigantlet and the Channel Island rounds). Currently 58 people are registered for the Championship. However if FoS was a BHC round then expect that figure to grow massively (probably 100 at least). Also within the BHC regulations if a Championship contender enters an event prior to the Closing Date for Entries then their entry MUST be accepted.
As Sabrejet rightly says that would be too many for the FoS to cope with.
At Escdorf last year there was only one European who beat the Brits and 'our boys' hadn't seen the hill previously whilst the Europeans had competed on it often. BTW the Europeans would also make mincemeat of Heidfeld's record.
An impressive feat indeed! Just for the record, Moran, Hall, and Willis came home 2nd, 4th, and 7th respectively.
It should be noted that Faggioli reckoned the course to be "too short and easy" and thus too easy to learn...
Truth is, I don't think there's much of a difference in speed or bravery between the Brits and the Europeans in hillclimbing, despite the very different formats. I'd love to see the UK contingent come over to somewhere like St Ursanne though!
You could however easily accomodate a BHC Historic class. My 'wish list' would start with an ERA then add in ...
Steyr-Allard
Cooper T53 Climax
Felday-Daimler
Ferguson P99
Marsh Special
BRM P67
Hepworth Special
McLaren M10A
March 712
Brabham BT36X Repco
McRae GM1
March 772 BMW
March 771 Six Wheeler
Pilbeam MP40
March 782 Hart
Pilbeam MP50 Hart
Pilbeam MP43 Hart
Gouid 84 Hart
You could also throw in cars like the McLaren M6/M12 Chevvie that George Tatham ran, a couple of 'special saloon' Skodas & Imps, a Terrapin and a Jedi plus a couple of Buick/Oldsmobile Brabham/Cooper hillclimbers.
The concensus at Harewood the day after was that the speed trap at Barbon Manor hillclimb was optimistic to say the least.
I wondered that...straight after his run, I hoped that the timing system had worked OK as chopping .42 of a sec off the record seemed a big chunk percentage-wise....also, others who went through the trap at 130-135 had problems at the hairpin, seemed inconceivable that at 146 he'd got round no problem...
With the mention, above, of last year's end-of-season Masters event at Eschdorf, I think it's worth saying that comparison of the UK and European Hillclimb Championship scenes is difficult, if not impossible, and potentially misleading. The nature of the events and the regulations are rather different.
The comment attributed to Simone Faggioli about course length may be pertinent, but I believe the short length was one of the deliberate choices made in an effort to level the playing field a little and entice contenders from series such as the UK's. (Having said that, SF was uncharacteristically low down the results there - although the weather was unhelpful to many).
The UK cars ran in a different class to the regular Euro contenders. The Euro cars run unsilenced which is a potential advantage - otherwise they run to fairly tight regs, capacity limits, strict minimum weight limits and so on, more akin to the circuit cars they resemble. UK cars have a considerable weight advantage apart from anything else (though that doesn't diminish the impressive performances of the UK drivers on their first visit.
At the daddy of them all, Trento-Bondone, I'm not sure if the UK-type single seaters would have made it to the top of the hill.
There is a Nostalgia link here in that some of the classic courses have been in use for a very long time.
This clip:
is how imagine the Targa Florio might look with modern LMP2 cars
And this one too:
Trento-Bondone was back on the calendar this year - run this weekend just gone, I think. For a taste, see this on-board clip from 2013:
The passage of Sardagna - from about 1m 30s in - is eye-opening... However committed and polished that is, though, it's worth noting that it didn't get the driver onto the podium - and the winner, Faggioli (inevitably), went some 40 seconds quicker in a wide-bodied sports-racer.
(Apologies to those who've endured me raving about this in the past.)
Sorry - I intended those to be links, not screens within the post - what did I do wrong?
I keep saying this, but Euro hillclimbing provides one of the last few chances to experience motor sport as it used to be (minus the overtaking) - from the runs themselves to the paddock atmosphere and spectating crowd.
Marengo... ah, no - not the same Tony, unfortunately.
I used to get email from people thinking I was the hillclimb driver/constructor, from seeing my name on a couple of forums and a magazine I used to edit. For a time I had contact details for my namesake and tried to point people in the direction, but that hasn't happened lately. Aside from sharing a less-than-common surname, there was some confusion because I had an interest in hillclimbing, had a little technical knowledge, and some experience of driving a 'bike-engined car.
I think, more recently, that the other Tony had some association with one of the more commercial hillclimb car constructors - someone like Force maybe?
If my meagre grasp of Italian is serving me, I think I have just read that the dependable Sr. Faggioli has chopped another ten seconds from the record for Trento-Bondone...
Proportionally, ten seconds on that hill would be something like 0.4 seconds off the record at Shelsley I think - so yes, quite a chunk of time.
In 1971 Peter Schetty (works Ferrari) held the record at 10m 58s. It's now 9m 10s. That sounds a lot, at just under 2.5s per year average, but the equivalent at Shelsley might be, what?, four hundredths or so per year?
If the FoS team were to consider a celebration of hillclimbing , it would be wonderful if it could include a selection of some the incredibly innovative, clever and terrifyingly-quick devices that continue to appear on the hills. Some are home-made, others come from small specialist firms.
Two come to mind:
Nic Mann's "Mannic Beattie" which has a Mallock chassis at its core, a highly-developed and laid-on-its-side Cosworth BDT engine developed by John Beattie, a gas turbine that both provides the BDT with lag-free boost and also drives a blown diffuser for added downforce, and four-wheel-drive. It is beautifully engineered, in my view, and it sounds like nothing else. It is also astonishingly quick. have a look at this:
Chris Cannell's Force SR8 with its twin side-by-side Hayabusa engines is equally impressive:
Does anyone know the whereabouts and condition of any of the hillclimb specials from the more traditionally glamorous marques - such as Schetty's Ferrari 212 and the like, or the Porsche Bergspyders? Have any of them been to the FoS? I don't know how much of a draw such things would be for the more casual FoS visitor.
That said, UK hillclimbing did play a very significant, and higher profile, part in motorsport in days gone by and might be celebrated rather more. Mind you, I'm not sure that the FoS is actually about hillclimbing, is it? - it's an altogether broader and less closely defined event than that.
Thinking of Nic Mann's latest car (remember his Morris Minor?), didn't Joy and Murray Rainey have a car (the Murrain?) which similarly used some kind of kerosene-burning device to keep a blower spinning? I never got a close look at that one, so I may have the details wrong.
There are any number of technically-fascinating cars from UK hill climbing (the Squires-Kidsley Brabham 'Lysholm', or its turbocharged variant, anyone?) but whether they can be 'sold' as a broad-appeal concept with the Goodwood context, I don't know. It would be interesting to know how many such older machines still exist.
Does anyone know the whereabouts and condition of any of the hillclimb specials from the more traditionally glamorous marques - such as Schetty's Ferrari 212 and the like, or the Porsche Bergspyders? Have any of them been to the FoS? I don't know how much of a draw such things would be for the more casual FoS visitor.
That said, UK hillclimbing did play a very significant, and higher profile, part in motorsport in days gone by and might be celebrated rather more. Mind you, I'm not sure that the FoS is actually about hillclimbing, is it? - it's an altogether broader and less closely defined event than that.
I remember seeing at least one of the Bergspyders at Porsche's new museum five years ago, I would reckon BMW to have kept one of the Montis as well. No idea about the 212 - I would absolutely love to see that car in the flesh.
Does anyone know the whereabouts and condition of any of the hillclimb specials from the more traditionally glamorous marques - such as Schetty's Ferrari 212 and the like, or the Porsche Bergspyders? Have any of them been to the FoS?
This 1965 Bergspyder was at this year's FoS, entered by Martin Viessmann:
BMW have supported Goodwood in the past, promoting their 'Mobile Tradition' department, so if they have a 'Monti' maybe it has been shown? I haven't been to the FoS so much in recent years. You've shown me a big hole in my knowledge though, Wolfgang - I know next to nothing about those cars (was there more than one?) though I believe it was built by Lola (like their F2 car) and may have used the Apfelbeck motor; they were certainly taking seriously. I need to do some homework!
I think I *might* have seen the Schetty Ferrari 212 in the Bardinon collection at Mas du Clos (it was reported to have passed into his collection after a year of competition in private hands). I know it's shameful that I can't remember, but we didn't have long inside: I was on a track driving day there and we were allowed to roam the museum at lunchtime. Most of us were happy to 'extend' the lunch hour and eat into the driving time, but it was still rather rushed to get around the collection. On subsequent visits the museum wasn't open at all. (The circuit is rather nice.)
Off topic again: one particular highlight I do recall is the 312 coupé Group 6 car from 1969 which I thought more attractive than the P4. The later, open-topped version of that seems to be an even rarer beast.
BMW have supported Goodwood in the past, promoting their 'Mobile Tradition' department, so if they have a 'Monti' maybe it has been shown? I haven't been to the FoS so much in recent years.
You've shown me a big hole in my knowledge though, Wolfgang - I know next to nothing about those cars (was there more than one?) though I believe it was built by Lola (like their F2 car) and may have used the Apfelbeck motor; they were certainly taking seriously. I need to do some homework!
I think I *might* have seen the Schetty Ferrari 212 in the Bardinon collection at Mas du Clos (it was reported to have passed into his collection after a year of competition in private hands). I know it's shameful that I can't remember, but we didn't have long inside: I was on a track driving day there and we were allowed to roam the museum at lunchtime. Most of us were happy to 'extend' the lunch hour and eat into the driving time, but it was still rather rushed to get around the collection. On subsequent visits the museum wasn't open at all. (The circuit is rather nice.)
Off topic again: one particular highlight I do recall is the 312 coupé Group 6 car from 1969 which I thought more attractive than the P4. The later, open-topped version of that seems to be an even rarer beast.
Tony, I don't know that much about the Montis either - yes there was more than one: to my knowledge there were three Montis. The first two had Lola chassis, de rigeur for BMW in those days, and they were dubbed "Lola Montez", hence the Monti nickname (of a nickname) :-) The third one was built entirely by BMW (I think), and had the "wasp waist" chassis. As far as I know, all three had the Apfelbeck engine.
Bergspyders, Montis, 212s, Abarths, Schetty - is it time for a separate thread on the halcyon days of the European Hillclimb Championship, or hillclimbing history in general, I wonder...?