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Did Mercedes break pit rule?


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#1 RealRacing

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:14

Mercedes tries to fool Williams with a dummy pit stop. According to Coulthard and Brundle, these are illegal. IMO they shouldn't be and just another strategic tool to be used by teams whenever they want. But F1 being what it is and Merc acknowledging that it was, in effect, a plot to trick Williams, shouldn't they be penalized? 

 

More here: http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/33403578

 

 



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#2 smitten

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:20

Mercedes tries to fool Williams with a dummy pit stop. According to Coulthard and Brundle, these are illegal. IMO they shouldn't be...

 

If you are pro-safety, you don't want people in the pit lane unnecessarily.



#3 JeePee

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:23

I thought it was cool and they shouldn't need to be penalised for it, but since it's Mercedes: Race ban till Abu Dhabi.



#4 Fatgadget

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:25

Given that was enacted in full view of the stewards, obviously no infraction of the rules took place otherwise they would of been brought to book! :D  



#5 Spillage

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:26

Interesting. I thought at the time they'd just changed their minds, but it seems Toto Wolff is actually admitting to a deliberate violation of the rules. Ought not attract more than a fine though, since it is their first offence.



#6 Tapz63

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:27

How is the rule written? Maybe it is okay to do it on occasion.

#7 SenorSjon

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:30

Ah come on. And they still wonder why F1 is sick?



#8 Jon83

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:31

If it was a one-off, I'd maybe just remind them of the rules and nothing more. If they continually do it (they won't considering 90% they aren't racing another team) then maybe a fine or something might be an idea.

 

Going back to the race, it just makes Williams decision not to pit Massa on the same lap as Hamilton even more ridiculous given there was no way Mercedes would try that trick a second time. But that's another matter.



#9 ardbeg

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:33

I remember it used to be illegal and was very surprised they got away with it. Obviously (since no team are complaining) it is legal now. It was a common tactic in the yesteryears.



#10 RealRacing

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:34

I agree, the rule shouldn't even exist. Supposedly it has something to do with safety. But given the state of the championship this year, it would be nice if they get a couple of grid places penalty for the next race.  ;)



#11 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:57

It was an amateurish chickenshit move. If anything, the fans should recognize what the team is capable of and the childish nonsense they are capable of descending to. Remember, this team also received a reprimand because they breached Article 27.4 of the Sporting Regulations. Although the technicians have built a killer car, at times the people running the race operation are a bunch of clowns.

 

When this occurred they fooled no one, and the rest of the teams looked on and said to themselves, "what a bunch of idiots".



#12 Fatgadget

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:06

Its brinkmanship! And if its legal,why not?



#13 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:09

I remember they did this a lot in the past (Ferrari etc.)...

 

what rule/paragraph in the sporting regs bans it? (only "working personnel" in the active/hot pitlane?")


Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 07 July 2015 - 15:10.


#14 northanmonkee2

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:10

i think it was clever of merc  they played an obvouis  fake pitstop , and then when they came out for hamiltons undercut williams didnt react 



#15 SilverArrow31

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:11

Yes, and its not legal im surprised they didn't get another reprimand for it, maybe they need to do it three times for the stewards to take action or something. Not worth a penalty though, whether sporting or financial.



#16 MikeV1987

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:13

I thought it was funny, no harm no foul.



#17 Dolph

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:13

It was an amateurish chickenshit move. If anything, the fans should recognize what the team is capable of and the childish nonsense they are capable of descending to. Remember, this team also received a reprimand because they breached Article 27.4 of the Sporting Regulations. Although the technicians have built a killer car, at times the people running the race operation are a bunch of clowns.

 

When this occurred they fooled no one, and the rest of the teams looked on and said to themselves, "what a bunch of idiots".

 

You forgot the part when unicorns were flying though the air and monkeys invaded the track mid race :drunk:
 



#18 Dolph

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:13

I also thought it as illegal.



#19 skc

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:14

Would have been uproar if Redbull had done it. Lets be honest.



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#20 Dolph

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:14

I thought it was funny, no harm no foul.

 

Its like with Arrivabene almost being run over by Massa. Funny, but unnecessarily dangerous.



#21 smitten

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:15

I remember they did this a lot in the past (Ferrari etc.)...

 

what rule/paragraph in the sporting regs bans it? (only "working personnel" in the active/hot pitlane?")

 

23.11 Team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before they are required to work
on a car and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.

 

Ergo, you are not allowed in the pit lane unless you intend to do some work....



#22 redreni

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:16

Yes. Although I was quite amused by Pat Symmonds telling the BBC, during the race, that "it is actually against the rules to go out if it's not a genuine call". Not sure Mercedes should be taking too many lectures from him on the propriety of anything...

 

The rule on this is clear enough. Team personnel were in the pit lane and they were not required to work on the car immediately afterwards, which is a breach of 23.11 SR. All sorts of rules get broken all the time, though. If Whiting hasn't specifically said he will enforce a rule, then the odds are that he won't. Physical contact between drivers and team personnel after the race but before the driver steps onto the weighbridge isn't allowed either, for perfectly good reasons, but it always happens. It's one of those rules that only gets enforced if the officials feel the transgressor is taking the mickey and gaining an advantage.



#23 chadwick8505

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:18

I thought they were allowed into the pit lane for one lap, if the car comes in they service it and return... if not they must return to the garage. Could be wrong.

 

Either way, who cares? It's not like it had any effect whatsoever.



#24 Jon83

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:23

Did the mechanics not used to always be out around the pit box from the start of the race until the end of lap 1? Or am I wrong?


Edited by Jon83, 07 July 2015 - 15:45.


#25 Gareth

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:35

I remember they did this a lot in the past (Ferrari etc.)...

No one's ever 'fessed up to it in the past.  So they've always had plausible deniability regarding whether it was a feint, or whether there was a genuine possibility of a stop.  Not this time, though.  Which I guess is the difference.



#26 redreni

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:40

i think it was clever of merc  they played an obvouis  fake pitstop , and then when they came out for hamiltons undercut williams didnt react 

 

But Merc telepgraphed Hamilton's stop by telling him "box, box, box" at the start of his in-lap. It would be audacious of them to have a code where "box, box, box" actually meant stay out, especially when we have a technical directive banning coded messages. So it was clear they were stopping.

 

From Williams' point of view, stopping on the same lap as Merc was ideal, but stopping first would have been better than stopping second, so I've absolutely no idea why they waited. I can see why they didn't take the bait on lap 14, but by the time Hamilton pitted they were well into the 1-stop window.

 

Also interesting to read in the article that the regulation is "a little vague" according to Benson. I think it's clear enough, isn't it? And he points out that this sort of thing happened all the time 15 years ago. I remember what it was like then, and it was bloody dangerous.

 

Ferrari and Mclaren's boxes were adjacent to each other, and generally speaking, they would not be trying to dummy each other into stopping. Refuelling was allowed and fuel effect generally had a greater influence on laptime than deg, meaning times would fall as each stint wore on rather than increasing as they tend to now, plus the tyres of that era were not quick on the outlap. So there was no incentive to undercut anyone, and people generally only pitted when they were out of fuel.

 

The reason they would come out when they weren't stopping was because Mclaren and Ferrari's boxes were adjacent to each other, and they were positioning their people in the pit lane in order to stop the other team's drivers from driving through their box on the way into or out of their own box. Having to drive around the other team's mechanics always costs time. So Ferrari's front left wheelman would be kneeling on the concrete operating as a human apex of a corner that the Mclaren would have to get around in order to stop in its box. And the Mclaren driver would know that the fella was only there in the hope of costing him the race. Races would often be decided at the stops and every half a tenth counted, so they would leave no margin in getting around these people. I seem to remember Mclaren pulling this trick in 1999 at Silverstone, and Irvine overshot his marks and lost the race (which ultimately could have been the difference that cost him the WDC). He said after the race that he'd misjudged it because it had been the first time in the whole weekend that Mclaren had been out in the pitlane when he was coming in. But anyway, it was brutal and dangerous and it needed to be reigned in.

 

By comparison, the "dummy" manoeuvre is relatively harmless, but there is a clear rule. And admitting that it was a dummy, rather than a late reversal of an initial decision to pit on lap 14, is brazen. I was surprised to hear Wolff admitting to that on television.


Edited by redreni, 07 July 2015 - 16:50.


#27 AustinF1

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:45

If it's illegal, then yes, they should have been penalized. 



#28 Tomecek

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 15:55

Is it not AMAZING? The same people, who talks about necessity the sport to become more entertaining, are keen to penalize a little display of playful temperament. This is sick  :drunk:



#29 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:00

23.11 Team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before they are required to work
on a car and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.
 
Ergo, you are not allowed in the pit lane unless you intend to do some work....

Exactly. I think it doesn't matter, because it did not fool Pat into bringing one of his cars in, but if it had, I would have been mighty irritated. The fact that Toto fessed up so willingly was a little bit surprising to me, but I am sure behind the scenes someone has had a word.

Should they be penalised? Yes, the team should get a reprimand.

#30 AustinF1

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:02

Is it not AMAZING? The same people, who talks about necessity the sport to become more entertaining, are keen to penalize a little display of playful temperament. This is sick  :drunk:

Maybe you should be arguing that it should be legal. Then maybe you'd have a point. To me this isn't a matter of whether or not I like the rule. I never minded the dummies thrown in the pits. But if it's illegal now, well then, that changes things, doesn't it?

 

It's a matter of whether or not they willfully and knowingly broke a rule that was put in place for a reason. If they did that, then they should be penalized.



#31 RubalSher

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:03

23.11 Team personnel are only allowed in the pit lane immediately before they are required to work
on a car and must withdraw as soon as the work is complete.

 

Ergo, you are not allowed in the pit lane unless you intend to do some work....

 

They intended and changed their mind?



#32 Riverside

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:04

Interesting. I thought at the time they'd just changed their minds, but it seems Toto Wolff is actually admitting to a deliberate violation of the rules. Ought not attract more than a fine though, since it is their first offence.

 

 This is the proper action.   No penalty($$$)/reprimand  is just another example of FIA being completely inconsistent ...... 



#33 RubalSher

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:06

Where was the outrage when Alonso was not DSQed from qualy for using Button's tyres? Oh wait, another Merc moan thread disguised.



#34 Riverside

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:06

Is it not AMAZING? The same people, who talks about necessity the sport to become more entertaining, are keen to penalize a little display of playful temperament. This is sick  :drunk:

 

  Nothing sick about safety,  mate.  Obviously the rule was made with that in mind.  



#35 AustinF1

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:09

Where was the outrage when Alonso was not DSQed from qualy for using Button's tyres? Oh wait, another Merc moan thread disguised.

Outrage? I'm not outraged. Someone asked the question & I answered. Didn't McLaren get a reprimand, btw? Not really the same situation, either as there was at least a little bit of FIA involvement/miscommunication  that started the confusion in the first place.



#36 Riverside

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:11

They intended and changed their mind?

 

  Denial much?  Toto admitted to the ploy.   

 

Where was the outrage when Alonso was not DSQed from qualy for using Button's tyres? Oh wait, another Merc moan thread disguised.

 

 Perhaps you should have made a thread about it.   Was it dangerous?   Is there a rule about it?    This is hardly a Merc moan thread ......   



#37 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:16

McLaren were reprimanded. If there's more to say about that, dig up the thread for it, because in here it's just sour grapes. It has nothing at all to do with whether this action - to get your staff out into the pitlane for some brinksmanship - is illegal or punishable.

#38 HeadFirst

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:17

Is it not AMAZING? The same people, who talks about necessity the sport to become more entertaining, are keen to penalize a little display of playful temperament. This is sick  :drunk:

 

"A little display of playful temperament" .... what the hell is that supposed to mean? They admit it was an attempt to mislead the opposition, if it is against the rules there should be consequences.



#39 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:19

Had Williams had taken the bait, wouldn't that have been better for them? Isn't the criticism against them that they should have pitted first?



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#40 RubalSher

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:20

Should this not be an open and shut case? Why does anyone think Merc were not penalized if it is against the rules?

 

It is quite likely Merc did something well within the rules. Simples.

 

A nothing thread really based on misinformation.

 

Edit: It is obviously within the rules. The Merc pit crew sat out for a whole lap in Monaco without doing a thing as both their drivers passed the pits. Not sure what the fuss is about now.


Edited by RubalSher, 07 July 2015 - 16:22.


#41 Atreiu

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:22

I don't like Mercedes, so it's illegal and they should be banned and burnt.

;)



#42 HeadFirst

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:25

Should this not be an open and shut case? Why does anyone think Merc were not penalized if it is against the rules?

 

It is quite likely Merc did something well within the rules. Simples.

 

A nothing thread really based on misinformation.

 

Edit: It is obviously within the rules. The Merc pit crew sat out for a whole lap in Monaco without doing a thing as both their drivers passed the pits. Not sure what the fuss is about now.

 

It would seem from rule 23.11 that a rule was violated. The fact that Merc got away with it before (if true) is irrelevant.



#43 Speedoholic

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:27

I think the FIA and people in general could use a bit humor in their lives. I see nothing wrong with their move, I thought it was quite funny and entertaining.



#44 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:28

The rule has been quoted above, Symonds predicted it live on the BBC, it was seen to be broken, and Toto then admitted they did it on TV after the race. Why they were not penalized, I cannot say. Perhaps it just isn't something the stewards take seriously? However, that's not the same as understanding and acknowledging the infraction.

#45 smitten

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:32

The rule has been quoted above, Symonds predicted it live on the BBC, it was seen to be broken, and Toto then admitted they did it on TV after the race. Why they were not penalized, I cannot say. Perhaps it just isn't something the stewards take seriously? However, that's not the same as understanding and acknowledging the infraction.

 

I think it is a bit like rigid body work - there needs to be some flexibility.

 

There is nothing illegal about being in the pit lane per se, but the SR gives some means of preserving the safety of people.  Should a team be penalised for coming out if a driver is thinking of coming in but doesn't?  What about when we have radio messages "do the opposite of the car in front": are both teams allowed in the pit lane or neither?

 

Some latitude would seem sensible, but a word in their shell-like may be in order....


Edited by smitten, 07 July 2015 - 16:33.


#46 RubalSher

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:33

It would seem from rule 23.11 that a rule was violated. The fact that Merc got away with it before (if true) is irrelevant.

 

 

The rule has been quoted above, Symonds predicted it live on the BBC, it was seen to be broken, and Toto then admitted they did it on TV after the race. Why they were not penalized, I cannot say. Perhaps it just isn't something the stewards take seriously? However, that's not the same as understanding and acknowledging the infraction.

 

Please tell me you have not seen any pit crews that loiter in the pit lane as soon as SC gets deployed only for both their drivers to keep carrying on. It happens all the time. I cannot believe this is the first time any of you have seen the pit crews come out without servicing either of their cars.



#47 redreni

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:33

They intended and changed their mind?

 

It doesn't say "immediately before it is anticipated that they will be required to work on the car".

 

The way it's worded, if you send your people out and they are not then required to work on a car immediately afterwards, you have broken the rule. Intent doesn't come into it. Which I admit, does seem harsh. Teams always send their mechanics out if they're expecting that their driver might pit, e.g. when it's raining but it's driver's call when to come in, or when the driver has been told "box this lap but do the opposite of the car ahead". If they end up staying out, this would appear to be against the rules, no matter how pure the intention.



#48 RubalSher

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:39

It doesn't say "immediately before it is anticipated that they will be required to work on the car".

 

The way it's worded, if you send your people out and they are not then required to work on a car immediately afterwards, you have broken the rule. Intent doesn't come into it. Which I admit, does seem harsh. Teams always send their mechanics out if they're expecting that their driver might pit, e.g. when it's raining but it's driver's call when to come in, or when the driver has been told "box this lap but do the opposite of the car ahead". If they end up staying out, this would appear to be against the rules, no matter how pure the intention.

 

And all I am saying is pit crews do this all the time. This rule (if it exists) obviously is not enforced, and Merc is neither the first or the last team to do this. That is why this looks more like a witch hunt thread against Merc more than anything else.



#49 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:39

Please tell me you have not seen any pit crews that loiter in the pit lane as soon as SC gets deployed only for both their drivers to keep carrying on. It happens all the time. I cannot believe this is the first time any of you have seen the pit crews come out without servicing either of their cars.

I think you are wilfully ignoring the fact that Toto admitted what they did on television.

#50 redreni

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 16:41

Had Williams had taken the bait, wouldn't that have been better for them? Isn't the criticism against them that they should have pitted first?

 

Not on lap 14, no, because they would have been sitting ducks at the end or they'd have been forced onto a 2-stop and marooned in traffic.