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Best wet weather/changable conditions driver in the current grid?


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#1 kenkip

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:27

I thought there was an interesting debate going on in the Vettel vs Kimi thread with some posters making a case for Vettel being the best on the current grid and I thought I would open it up to the rest of the forum to get your views.
Vettel is a magnificent wet weather driver,any otherwise is just delusional,but I would like to make a case for Jenson Button.His ability to make those split second calls and finding grip when switching between slicks and wets is massively underrated.
Obviously another honorable mention is Lewis Hamilton.
Thoughts?

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#2 McLaren

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:29

The above 3 you mentioned, plus Nico Hulkenberg.



#3 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:37

For me Vettel, Hamilton and Button.

#4 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:37

I'm a fan, so a bit biased, but I'd agree with Button. He's good (although obviously not the best) in the dry and wet, but in changeable conditions he's always at the top of the times or near as. When it was wet in Austria qualifying it was notable that he jumped up from the back of the grid to the top 3 until conditions moved back to being pure dry, at which point the McLaren showed it's true position.



#5 P123

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:41

Yep, JB has generally been pretty good in the greasy/ damp conditions. I'm not sure about finding grip when changing between slicks and wets- I think he's always stood out more when running on slicks on a wet track.

In terms of drivers on the current grid who have had stand out wet weather performances then Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso.

#6 Imateria

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:49

Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso and Hulkenburg are all excellent in the wet but Button really takes the biscuit and then some.



#7 chadwick8505

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:53

I think Vettel is the best in the wet conditions. He seems to just love it and alters his driving perfectly to fit the conditions.

 

I have a hard time giving Lewis any positive critic of wet weather because I remember his first couple of drives in wet conditions in 2007... they didn't always go well. But a lot of that could have been the fact that he was a rookie. But for some reason those instances always stick in my mind despite him being a damn fine driver in the wet.



#8 smitten

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:56

I think Vettel is the best in the wet conditions. He seems to just love it and alters his driving perfectly to fit the conditions.

 

I have a hard time giving Lewis any positive critic of wet weather because I remember his first couple of drives in wet conditions in 2007... they didn't always go well. But a lot of that could have been the fact that he was a rookie. But for some reason those instances always stick in my mind despite him being a damn fine driver in the wet.

 

Silverstone 2008: Hamilton won by a mile and Vettel ended up in the gravel.  How do you square this with your statement?
 

A agree with consensus of Hamilton, Vettel, and Button being above average, but remember being better than average in the wet doesn't mean you cannot make a mistake or have a bad race.  At the other end I think Alonso and Kimi are surprisingly poor for their experience and stature.



#9 RekF1

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:58

I think all 3 of the above mentioned drivers have demonstrated good skill in the rain. Vettel in Brazil 08 nearly cost Lewis a championship, Lewis in Silverstone 08 and Button in Canada 11.

They've also all had horrible experiences in mixed conditions.

Vettel in Canada 2011, Lewis in the same race and you could argue Silverstone last Sunday. I can't remember Button being noticeably slower,than his team-mate at least, in any mixed condition race.

It's a lottery really. Bottas has also had great wet or mixed condition races, where as Massa is usually shocking, but at Silverstone Massa was on it in comparison to VB.

#10 Button4life

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 17:58

I think that Button, Vettel, Hamilton are the best drivers in wet and damp conditions. Maybe Ricciardo but we haven't seen enough of him these conditions.


Edited by Button4life, 07 July 2015 - 17:58.


#11 SilverArrow31

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:01

His first wet races such as Canada and japan 2007?

 

The best drivers are always relatively good in wet conditions. So Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. But Button is the best in the wet, compare him with other drivers while its wet and then while its dry you see a marked improvement, not just Canada 2011, but all his best wins came when he took advantage of the conditions.



#12 Imateria

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:02

I think Vettel is the best in the wet conditions. He seems to just love it and alters his driving perfectly to fit the conditions.

 

I have a hard time giving Lewis any positive critic of wet weather because I remember his first couple of drives in wet conditions in 2007... they didn't always go well. But a lot of that could have been the fact that he was a rookie. But for some reason those instances always stick in my mind despite him being a damn fine driver in the wet.

The only mistakes from Hamilton that year I remember are the Nurburgring, were turn 1 became a lake and frankly it was little more than a lottery that any one got through there, and China where he put too much trust in the team leaving him out. That of course came a week after dominating Fuji in what were easily the worst conditions of any race that year. It's in changing conditions that he's weakest as he doesn't trust his own feeling for grip levels as much as some drivers do.



#13 Imateria

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:04

His first wet races such as Canada and japan 2007?

 

The best drivers are always relatively good in wet conditions. So Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. But Button is the best in the wet, compare him with other drivers while its wet and then while its dry you see a marked improvement, not just Canada 2011, but all his best wins came when he took advantage of the conditions.

Canada that year was perfectly dry.



#14 Jamiednm

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:05

There's a pretty strong consensus for Button, Hamilton and Vettel. Very unusual for this forum.



#15 Timantti

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:07

Silverstone 2008: Hamilton won by a mile and Vettel ended up in the gravel.  How do you square this with your statement?
 

A agree with consensus of Hamilton, Vettel, and Button being above average, but remember being better than average in the wet doesn't mean you cannot make a mistake or have a bad race.  At the other end I think Alonso and Kimi are surprisingly poor for their experience and stature.

 

McLarens from 07 and 08 were beasts in the wet. Most of Hamilton's rainmaster reputation came from 2007-2008. Silverstone 2008 just proved how unbelievably good that car was in such conditions. Hamilton is good but not "lap the entire field" good.

 

I think Vettel, Button and Hamilton have the best resumes when it comes to driving in the wet.



#16 Spillage

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:07

I'll go with Vettel, I think. Seems to pull it out of the bag whenever it gets slippery, even (as last year) when he's otherwise struggling.



#17 krea

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:08

Silverstone 2008: Hamilton won by a mile and Vettel ended up in the gravel.  How do you square this with your statement?

 

Vettel was kicked out of the race by Coulthard in 2008. What are you trying to imply?



#18 redraven9

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:13

Everyone forgetting Alonso. Brasil 2003, Hungary 2006, Europe 2007 (class of his own), 2010 Korea, Hungary 2014, Spa 2014 qualy, Japan 2014 qualy, Sepang 2012, Silverstone 2012 (qualy), Brazil 2012, etc

 

Vettel, Hamilton, Button are great as well.

 

Verstappen has great potential as well.


Edited by redraven9, 07 July 2015 - 19:08.


#19 chadwick8505

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:13

Silverstone 2008: Hamilton won by a mile and Vettel ended up in the gravel.  How do you square this with your statement?
 

A agree with consensus of Hamilton, Vettel, and Button being above average, but remember being better than average in the wet doesn't mean you cannot make a mistake or have a bad race.  At the other end I think Alonso and Kimi are surprisingly poor for their experience and stature.

 

That's what I mean I have no real reason for personally putting Lewis at the top except that my very first impressions of him in the wet were poor. Lewis has obviously had great races in the wet, I just always remember Germany 2007 first. I blame DC for Vettel at Silverstone in 2008. Plus Vettel's drive in Monza 2008 was impressive (but I don't want to open that can of worms... please forget I brought it up).

 

Despite being a fan of Kimi I agree his driving in wet conditions isn't that great



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#20 sennafan24

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:14

You guys are sleeping on Alonso (not literally). He deserves to be featured more in this debate.

 

All the top drivers have had their days as rainmaster. But I fail to see an absolute standout. Just like I fail to see a standout qualifier of this era.


Edited by sennafan24, 07 July 2015 - 18:15.


#21 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:14

McLarens from 07 and 08 were beasts in the wet. Most of Hamilton's rainmaster reputation came from 2007-2008. Silverstone 2008 just proved how unbelievably good that car was in such conditions. Hamilton is good but not "lap the entire field" good.

I think Vettel, Button and Hamilton have the best resumes when it comes to driving in the wet.

Why was the McLaren the best car in the wet in 2007-2008. Any proof on this? He lapped the entire field in Silverstone 2008 not because of the car or because he was so superiour. He lapped the entire field because they made always the right call for changing tyres...

I'll agree with your top 3 ;)

#22 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:18

You guys are sleeping on Alonso (not literally). He deserves to be featured more in this debate.

All the top drivers have had their days as rainmaster. But I fail to see an absolute standout. Just like I fail to see a standout qualifier of this era.

For me Nando is a little bit behind these guys. Its like his qualifying: really good but not really his big strength.

#23 RealRacing

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:24

Thinking about the Senna movie, I remembered this part when someone described his ability to find grip under any condition. So, it was said, his extreme overall talent to find grip on a track made him fast in both dry and wet conditions.  I think this is different from having a good or great intuition of when to do what when the conditions get wet or mixed. I think, of the drivers mentioned here, what Button has is that intuition, so knowing what to do when the conditions get mixed, when to stay on the track, when to enter the pit to change tyres. He also has this smooth driving style that is well suited for slippery conditions. In his case, however, it doesn't translate to being one of the fastest in normal conditions, so in that sense he's different from Senna, or also from Vettel and Hamilton for that matter, which are the ones being mentioned here. 



#24 jjcale

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:25

SV and JB - changeable

 

LH - full wet / stable conditions (ie not starting to rain or drying out - even if not fully wet) 



#25 YoungGun

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:26

I think it would be  Button because he would have the best win to wet races starts.



#26 sennafan24

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:26

For me Nando is a little bit behind these guys.

I think recent drives by Lewis and Seb in the wet, have made people forget Alonso's masterclasses in wet conditions. (RedRaven mentioned a few choice drives above)

 

As for Alonso's qualifying, don't mistake weak machinery for lack of aptitude. If he had the 2011 Red Bull or the 2014 Mercedes underneath him, I think people would hold a different perception.



#27 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:34

I think recent drives by Lewis and Seb in the wet, have made people forget Alonso's masterclasses in wet conditions. (RedRaven mentioned a few choice drives above)

As for Alonso's qualifying, don't mistake weak machinery for lack of aptitude. If he had the 2011 Red Bull or the 2014 Mercedes underneath him, I think people would hold a different perception.

To be honest until Malaysia 2012 I didn't really considered Alonso as an rain specialist. The past years he had great races/qualifyings in the wet. So its deffo not because of the recent races that everyone is considering Vettel and Hamilton and forgetting Alonso. At least in my case.

#28 SlickMick

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:34

Half the people on this website have no freakin' idea what the word delusional means.

#29 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:36

Everyone forgetting Alonso. Hungary 2006, 2014, Spa 2014 qualy, Japan 2014 qualy, Sepang 2012, Silverstone 2011 (qualy), Brazil 2012, etc

Vettel, Hamilton, Button are great as well.

Verstappen has great potential as well.

I think Silverstone was 2012 if I'm not mistaken. The totally wet qualifying where he grabed the pole?

And Japan 2014 qualy was dry. The race was wet but he had an early failure.

And Brazil 2012 he got clearly beaten by Massa in this race if I remember correctly...

Edited by Marklar, 07 July 2015 - 18:38.


#30 smitten

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:36

Half the people on this website have no freakin' idea what the word delusional means.

 

I deduce you disagree with somebody, but who or why you forgot to mention :wave:



#31 redraven9

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:38

I think recent drives by Lewis and Seb in the wet, have made people forget Alonso's masterclasses in wet conditions. (RedRaven mentioned a few choice drives above)

 

As for Alonso's qualifying, don't mistake weak machinery for lack of aptitude. If he had the 2011 Red Bull or the 2014 Mercedes underneath him, I think people would hold a different perception.

I agree. He kept Felipe honest, who is, in my opinion, a good qualifier. I often remember qualys when there was a pattern in teams and there was Fernando alone with the Ferrari or whatever car.

For Seb clearly the Monza 2008 weekend springs to mind, but even this year he was very impressive: he almost put that Ferrari on pole in Malaysia.

 

Lewis was a class above the grid in Silverstone 2008. Everyone was spinning and crashing around, most notably the Ferrari guys.

 

Jenson had some pretty epic races as well: Hungary 2006, Canada 2011. From recent memory, Suzuka 2014, he was leading the race at some point with that truck called McLaren.



#32 Timantti

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:39

Why was the McLaren the best car in the wet in 2007-2008. Any proof on this? He lapped the entire field in Silverstone 2008 not because of the car or because he was so superiour. He lapped the entire field because they made always the right call for changing tyres...

 

 

Because he hasn't shown such superiority since. It was Button who seemed like the stronger of the two in wet during their time together and even Kovalainen managed to beat him in Malaysia 2009. He doesn't hold a huge upper hand over Rosberg either.

 

It did help that he had such poor competition from Kimi and Massa in Ferrari those years, especially in 2008.


Edited by Timantti, 07 July 2015 - 18:42.


#33 redraven9

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:40

I think Silverstone was 2012 if I'm not mistaken. The totally wet qualifying where he grabed the pole?

Yes. I think he was a good 1.5s faster than Felipe that day.

 

I remember Silverstone 2011 being wet as well though. Or at least bad conditions. He won that race.

 

Edit: Oops. I must have confused Japan with something else.

 

In Brazil 2012 Massa might have been better, but Alonso was under WDC pressure, and Massa was fighting for his seat. Plus he had a really epic save!

 


Edited by redraven9, 07 July 2015 - 18:46.


#34 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:43

Because he hasn't shown such superiority since. It was Button who seemed like the stronger of the two in wet during their time together and even Kovalainen managed to beat him in Malaysia 2009. He doesn't hold a huge upper hand over Rosberg either.

Silverstone was just so superiour because of the strategy.

#35 dean111181

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:44

Silverstone 2008: Hamilton won by a mile and Vettel ended up in the gravel. How do you square this with your statement?


Vettel 4 WDCs Hamilton 2, squared.

#36 Timantti

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:47

Silverstone was just so superiour because of the strategy.

 

I don't remember anything that special in the tactic. I just remember that Ferrari didn't change Kimi's inters during their pit stop and soon after it started raining even more.



#37 joshb

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:48

Drivers I'd want to have in the wet are Hamilton, Button, Vettel, Alonso, Hulkenberg

Button is probably the best when it's mixed (most wet races since China 2009 have been mixed for large parts- Button has won lots).

If it was wet wet- like China 2009 or Japan 2007/2014, Hamilton or Vettel would be my pick

 

Sadly, they rarely race in the wet now. It's always put the SC out until they can be on inters (and then slicks within 10 laps)- Button territory



#38 joshb

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:51

Drivers I probably wouldn't want are Massa, Maldonado and Raikkonen - to me they seem generally off the pace somewhat, despite the occasional good wet drive



#39 Zava

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:53

Yes. I think he was a good 1.5s faster than Felipe that day.

 

I remember Silverstone 2011 being wet as well though. Or at least bad conditions. He won that race.

yeah, it was wet in the first ten laps or so - Vettel was leading by about 8 seconds when they switched to slicks, Webber got pit priority because Vettel had a huge cushion and Webber was in a direct fight with p3 man Alonso, his lead shrunk to 1 second thanks to the extra lap on inters. then red bull mechanics forgot how to do a pit stop in 3 seconds, but remembered how to do it in 15, that's when Alonso passed him. 

 

add a poll, pretty please?


Edited by Zava, 07 July 2015 - 18:54.


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#40 Marklar

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:56

I don't remember anything that special in the tactic. I just remember that Ferrari didn't change Kimi's inters during their pit stop and soon after it started raining even more.

That was the problem. Massa was constantly spinning of the track and Kimi got messed up by the strategy. Hamiltons biggest remaining contender than was Heidfeld. And Barrichello in the awful Honda....

But as you said the "superiority" in the wet of McLaren might had something to do with Ferrari having Kimi and Felipe as their drivers.

Edited by Marklar, 07 July 2015 - 18:57.


#41 mgs315

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 18:57

As regards Lewis, I feel he's a lot better in full wet conditions as opposed to changeable/marginal conditions. He always seemed to struggle in drizzle IMO. Maybe it's because Button is so so good in those.

#42 Strontiumdog

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:00

I don't really know how to judge these weather conditions in relation to driver skill but I do know Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso usually pull something out of the bag. Each one of them does not do it on every single occasion  but they are usually thereabouts. 

 

The standout one of them ? your guess is a good as mine



#43 Fatgadget

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:06

McLarens from 07 and 08 were beasts in the wet. Most of Hamilton's rainmaster reputation came from 2007-2008. Silverstone 2008 just proved how unbelievably good that car was in such conditions. Hamilton is good but not "lap the entire field" good.

 

I think Vettel, Button and Hamilton have the best resumes when it comes to driving in the wet.

I take it you never followed Hamilton during his karting days? Okay,sit back,relax and watch this!...https://www.youtube....h?v=qt_PJqM-sRc



#44 kvyatfan

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:13

I don't think anyone will argue with Vettel and Hamilton. Alonso is obvious. But I think Kvyat deserves a mention as a potential as he was far quicker than Hulkenberg on both tyres and had the fastest overall lap while beating Hamilton and Vettel on several other laps as well in a much slower car. Obviously he would have to prove himself in more than one race, but I'd say he's one to watch.

 

People will say he spun out, but he was brought in to pit a lap too late. The same decision completely ruined Williams as well.

 

Here are the four fastest times from the top three drivers in Britain, two from each set of tyres (I included a third time for Hamilton to be more representative of when Kvyat and Vettel had their second fastest lap since Hamilton was well ahead and may have experienced different conditions for his other fastest lap):

 

Kvyat
1:39.052
1:41.184
 
1:50.301
1:49.817
 
Vettel
1:38.815
1:41.630
 
1:50.559
1:50.291
 
Hamilton
1:38.068
1:37.600
1:41.184
 
1:50.344
1:50.510
 
I think Ricciardo is deserving of a mention as well, but probably needs more races. And Jenson has the experience.

Edited by kvyatfan, 07 July 2015 - 19:16.


#45 CARLO55AINZ

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:19

Im not so sure about Vettel as he lost the Canadian GP in the wet through a bit of a rookie error.



#46 redraven9

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:24

Im not so sure about Vettel as he lost the Canadian GP in the wet through a bit of a rookie error.

He also crashed Jenson in 2010 Spa. (although not full wet conditions)

But he has grown a lot since then. He has been a very mature guy in racing lately.



#47 Fatgadget

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:26

I deduce you disagree with somebody, but who or why you forgot to mention :wave:

Kwality mate!  :rotfl:  :up:



#48 P123

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:29

Im not so sure about Vettel as he lost the Canadian GP in the wet through a bit of a rookie error.


None of them are faultless in the wet. Quite a few in this topic (and the discussion in the Kimi/Vet topic) seem to follow that line of thought though.

#49 noikeee

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:29

Button isn't a great wet driver (though he's competent), he's a great wet strategist!

 

On wet surface pace I'd definitely choose Vettel and Hamilton as the 2 outstanding drivers.



#50 CARLO55AINZ

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 19:31

Funny that most the mentioned drivers are also World Champions, I guess that says it all.