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Carbon fibre production wheels


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#51 Greg Locock

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 18:31

I'll suggest it, that's certainly a left field approach. Actually the paint issue is more of an aesthetic thing, I don't want to go into details as it was an entirely off the cuff discussion that may have revealed a bit too much.



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#52 MatsNorway

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 19:14

Just ask them/show them the thread and desmo cleans up if you ask kindly. That said, i doubt it being needed as far as i remember. (i do not bother going thru)


Edited by MatsNorway, 28 August 2015 - 06:49.


#53 Canuck

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 21:00

That's a brilliant marketing photo, used by one of my local spray coating suppliers. I've always wanted to have them spray an apple and cut it open to see what the surface damage actually is.

#54 bigleagueslider

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 03:37

Here's a good analogy from the aircraft industry similar to the choice of metal vs composite materials for wheels. If you look at the history of commercial turbine engine fan blade development from the late 70's to the late 90's between GE and Rolls-Royce, you'll note that GE was successful at producing composite fan blades while Rolls-Royce stuck with metal fan blades. Both companies were able to make fan blades that performed quite well. And each company claimed advantages for their fan blades. Rolls-Royce claimed their titanium fan blades were more tolerant to impact damage, which was true. While GE claimed their composite fan blades were lighter and provided better fatigue life, which was also true.



#55 404KF2

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:28

If your cars always fall apart after three years, maybe for your next set of wheels you should consider those that aren't made in France.

 

Hmmmm, let's see.... my French car is 49.5 years old..... :rotfl:

 

Let me spell it out for you, since you seem to be a little slow.  The manufacturers are happy to sell anything that will last reliably for a typical lease period.  Say three years.  They don't care much what happens to the car (carbon fibre wheels and all) after that because in many cases, warranty is up and the owner is on his own dime.



#56 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 00:24

According to this rather detailed looking tool a 21" rim would weigh 21 kg. http://www.wheel-siz...l=30mm&scl=50mm

 

That seems high to me, it may be a gravity cast aluminium/air alloy  rather than a low pressure die cast aluminium wheel. That's a little joke, porosity is a big problem with gravity cast wheels

A 18x9 mainstream aftermarket cast alloy rim is aprox 11 kilos. Same wheel in magnesium probably 10% less. [no they are not made that way] Composite about the same but with  a bit less centrifigual mass. C/F what maybe 9 kilos. 

Personally for street use I will use the cast alloy [or better a forged alloy. Though they tend to cost quite a deal more] and for proper race use probably a composite. Which as the advantage of being able to replace the odd damaged half. They all have a service life. I suspect the c/f one is less.



#57 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 00:35

F1 has been the stepping stone for some technology ahead of its application in road cars. It doesn't matter if the technologies were invented by F1, that's not the point. It still furthered their development and accelerated their deployment 'downstream'. That's really all anyone ever really does, as mats suggested. An inventor is the one who happens to find improvements that are distinct enough to give a technology a new name. Like seat belts that existed as harnesses before, they were just applied to restrain someone to a seat and voila, a brilliant new technology! Within the automotive sector F1 has pioneered many technologies and that's all people rightly credit it for.

F1 was decades behind in the use of race harnesses. I believe originally military jet eqipment used by hot rodders and oval track racers in the 50s. Names like Simpson where around long before F1 even used seat belts! In actual fact road cars here in Oz had seat belt anchors since 65 and front  belts fitted since 67. F1 started using belts when? 68-69. Decades out of date. look at them now, 13" wheels. Decades out of date!

And their costs? sorry again way out of date. But so is the FIA and defenitly Bernie!



#58 imaginesix

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 01:33

Hmmmm, let's see.... my French car is 49.5 years old..... :rotfl:

 

Let me spell it out for you, since you seem to be a little slow.  The manufacturers are happy to sell anything that will last reliably for a typical lease period.  Say three years.  They don't care much what happens to the car (carbon fibre wheels and all) after that because in many cases, warranty is up and the owner is on his own dime.

Except that poor reliability impacts resale value which impacts new car sales and selling prices. A little lesson that's been learned over the past 49.5 years thanks to Japanese competition.



#59 bigleagueslider

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 04:06

Hmmmm, let's see.... my French car is 49.5 years old..... :rotfl:

 

Let me spell it out for you, since you seem to be a little slow.  The manufacturers are happy to sell anything that will last reliably for a typical lease period.  Say three years.  They don't care much what happens to the car (carbon fibre wheels and all) after that because in many cases, warranty is up and the owner is on his own dime.

Definitely not the case with US automobiles. In the US, the OEM is responsible for any emissions related equipment for 100K miles. And as for safety related problems, they issue recalls for far more than 3 years. I got a recall notice from GM to replace the cable stops on the tailgate of my 10 year old truck. Don't see how these cables presented a safety hazard, but 10 years after I purchased the truck, somehow GM managed to track me down and send me a recall notice offering to replace the cable stops at no cost.



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#60 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 07:44

I got a recall notice from GM to replace the cable stops on the tailgate of my 10 year old truck. Don't see how these cables presented a safety hazard, but 10 years after I purchased the truck, somehow GM managed to track me down and send me a recall notice offering to replace the cable stops at no cost.

Sounds like a cheap way to get you into a dealership to try and sell you a new model.

#61 bigleagueslider

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 01:48

Sounds like a cheap way to get you into a dealership to try and sell you a new model.

I don't think so. In fact, when I dropped the truck off at the local Chevy dealer to have the recall repair done I also pointed out that the passenger side seat belt inertia reel was not operating properly, and they replaced it at no cost. That was 5 years ago, and I'm still driving the same truck. The dealerships are happy to perform any recall related service work since they get paid by the factory for it.



#62 desmo

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Posted 30 August 2015 - 14:41

I had an old (like 10 years!) Honda Civic that got a recall notice and they not only replaced the belts which were the recall item, but did a fabulous wash, wax and interior detailing of the car. And didn't charge me a penny for any of it! Very nice. Of course I still take my cars to the nice Japanese mechanic who runs a shop a couple of blocks away when I need service.

#63 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 03:36

Recalls are interesting. My Toymota is NOT affected by airbags recalls, yet other models that use the same steering wheels, so I guess airbag too have been.

Many different generic Toyotas use the same basic items. That is rationalisation. In the past I have used wheels from several different years and models to replace sun damaged ones.

GM, Ford etc too do similar things. Sometimes the wheel is a slightly different color but otherwise interchanges fully.

And ofcourse some entirely different wheels swap too. A Pontiac one was fitted to a Holden I once owned. Though it was very similar to the wheel used on that models 'hero' car.



#64 gruntguru

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Posted 26 May 2016 - 00:26

Ford Supercar options CF wheels, plus interesting info and videos from the Carbon Revolution wheel factory.

 

http://www.designfax...rearticle&pn=04



#65 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 08:33

Not a car for the average commute so it will not be pounded over worn out roads day in day out like your more average vehicle. 

And that does include for the more well heeled Porsches, Benz and many 'practical' hi performance cars.

 

Though if a wheel fails on a 10y/o one on a blast through the hills or at a track day then things may get interesting.



#66 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 09:52

How is that different to a steel wheel, a low pressure diecast alloy wheel, or a gravity cast alloy wheel (spit)?  You can never prove you haven't kerbed it, or more likely been through a pothole.



#67 gruntguru

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Posted 02 June 2016 - 22:44

That raises an interesting question. How do these materials compare when it comes to detecting damage-induced weakness or imminent failure? My carbon fibre bike frame had a scratch near the bottom bracket where the chain had come off a couple of times. I monitored it closely for several months before noticing a crack. (The maker replaced it under warranty.)

 

Is a damaged/unsafe CF component more likely to exhibit a visible flaw than steel or aluminium.



#68 MatsNorway

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 09:46

Can you even do NDT on a carbon rim? Has to be some resonanse.. just on different frequensies. Probably a entirely different world of technics.



#69 Greg Locock

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 22:38

Google broken on your machine? yes NDT is possible on composites, how else would they certify aircraft?



#70 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:07

How is that different to a steel wheel, a low pressure diecast alloy wheel, or a gravity cast alloy wheel (spit)?  You can never prove you haven't kerbed it, or more likely been through a pothole.

Yes, hi magnesium alloy wheels that fail through moisture contamination.

What will these wheels do when hit, kerb hits or in motorsport another car hitting them or bouncing off walls?

I have been getting feedback about various brands of alloys in motorsport recently, some bend and some break. In that circumstance a bent one usually retains the tyre wheras broken ones go down immediatly often increasing the accident.



#71 Greg Locock

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 01:15

yup, alloy wheels that are gravity cast will have porosity, and if alloys haven't been heat treated they'll tend to crack not bend, and if they have the wrong wheelweight flange design they'll crack in minor impacts. At the same time the racer's pursuit of low unsprung mass encourages the manufacturer to go light on the design, with obvious consequences.