157 replies to this topic

[Marklar]

In the recent discussions if the race weekend format could be change the qualifying plays a central role. Which qualifying system do you prefer and why?

Edited by Marklar, 12 July 2015 - 16:41.

[FerrariV12]

I voted with my heart and went for one hour, thats what I grew up with and enjoyed. This is the one occasion somebody could throw the "rose tinted glasses" thing at me and it actually be true rather than a logicless defence of the present.

Because if I voted with my head I could happily go for present system with small modifications, that modification being the start on Q2 tyres rule. I dont like that.

But that aside the qualifying system is one of the last things about F1 Id be looking to change if I listed them all by priority.

[taz]

The current format, but give them qualifying tyres in Q3

[chhatra]

I actually enjoyed 2005's 1 lap shootout. You got to see the whole lap from each driver and you had the variable of the championship leader going first and the lesser drivers going out when track was at best. Fastest cars always ended up at the front, but usually always had a surprise in there somewhere.

Oh and we need a 1 lap qualy tire, super soft and with awesome grip.

[Disgrace]

The current F1 format is excellent, but there should be no connection between qualifying and race with regards to tyres. Qualify on what you want. Start on what you want.

[BlackCat]

back to the roots. NO qualifying session. two practices friday, two practices saturday, best lap counts for grid position.

[thegamer23]

WTCC like.
3 sessions, with the top five's final showdown with single laps.

[brr]

I prefer the one which is least affected by track conditions, traffic, impossibly narrow tyre operating window, and saving tyres for the race.

[superden]

1 hour, 12 laps and no tyre restrictions.

[Beamer]

I prefer the one which is least affected by track conditions, traffic, impossibly narrow tyre operating window, and saving tyres for the race.

And that would be.... what?

[RealRacing]

X number of time, no limit of laps, no limit on tyres (ok, maybe x number of each compound max. but no relation with race tyre allowance) but no special qualifying tyre, drivers use whatever tyre they want for qualifying and whatever they want for racing. May the fastest guy win.

[PlatenGlass]

back to the roots. NO qualifying session. two practices friday, two practices saturday, best lap counts for grid position.

So four qualifying sessions.

[Tourgott]

Actually I liked the 1 hour / 12 laps qualifying the most.

Today is also ok but to be honest: In most cases you don't miss anything if you watch only Q3. That's what I don't like.

 

What I would like to see would be something like a shoot out / one versus one qualifying. 

Edited by Tourgott, 12 July 2015 - 16:09.

[registered]

WEC has one qualifying session not combined practice results, only at Le Mans there are more quaifying sessions...

[Spillage]

One lap, for me, but I'd like to see it with low fuel. I liked being able to see every corner of every lap in every car. Nowadays we usually miss most of the pole lap as we only see the cars coming over the line. And how did the Marussia handle at Silverstone? I've no idea; we never saw the bleedin' thing. The one-lap format is also good for sponsors in these austere times.

[Marklar]

WEC has one qualifying session not combined practice results, only at Le Mans there are more quaifying sessions...

Dont know what you mean ^^^^

Thanks for the correction. Totally forgot that.

[Atreiu]

Current system giving WCC points and then reversing the grid.

[Hans V]

Never understood what was wrong with old one-hour twelve laps format, apart from little action in the first half hour. The last five minutes used to be electrifying - usually the best part of the race-weekend. I'd say one hour, 15 laps, but they must set a lap in each 20-minute bracket. Dealing with traffic is part of the game.

[DutchQuicksilver]

How can anyone enjoy the old 12 lap 1 hour qualifying is beyond me. There was absolutely no fun in that format, watching Minardis for the majority of the session....

 

Best qualifying format his by far the current one. Most excitment, most activity ontrack both for tv audience as well as fans live at the venue.

[RubalSher]

Have a mini race on Saturday to decide grid positions for Sunday. Grid for Sat race based on reverse order of WDC points.

 

The current format is good but the fun part only lasts 10 minutes and 2 runs in a whole hour.

Edited by RubalSher, 12 July 2015 - 18:19.

[sabjit]

Nice try trying to split the vote for the current system.

 

Anyway, glad there is proof that people prefer this one. I have had a nagging feeling the the strategy group actually read threads where a vocal minority cry for a change which most people dont want, then they go and do it and wonder when everyone criticises them.

 

I have never understood the argument for 1 hour qualifying. Someone even once gave me a list of about 10 "reasons" which consisted mainly of either incorrect reasons or highlighting problems with knockout qualifying which 1 hour qualifying shared and repeated himself a few times to make the list seem longer.

 

TL:DR there is not a single reason why there should be 60 minute qualifying instead of the current format. Or indeed why the current one should be changed at all.

Edited by sabjit, 12 July 2015 - 18:37.

[Marklar]

Nice try trying to split the vote for the current system.

 

I did that because I hear lot of peoples saying that this qualiying system in general is the best but it need some adjustments (e.g. qualifying tyres, getting a rid of the Q2 race tyre rule, reduce the time in Q1 and Q2 and perhaps in Q3 and make an Q4). Thats why I splitted the votes

 

Anyway, glad there is proof that people prefer this one. I have had a nagging feeling the the strategy group actually read threads where a vocal minority cry for a change which most people dont want, then they go and do it and wonder when everyone criticises them.

That's exactly the reason why I did this thread. I was reading the past days about the plans of an quali race and was asking myself: "Does anybody want that?" (I have nothing against that to be honest). Obviously not....It's typical for the strategy group that they are trying to distract from the real problems of F1 with trying to fix something what doesn't need to be fixed (and even if than just a little bit).

Edited by Marklar, 12 July 2015 - 18:48.

[Happs]

A 25 lap shootout race on Saturday with starting positions determined by reverse points. The results of the Qualy race determines the grid for the race on Sunday. Might mix up the grid a bit. A bit more excitement on Saturday. Just a thought.

[PlatenGlass]

TL:DR there is not a single reason why there should be 60 minute qualifying instead of the current format. Or indeed why the current one should be changed at all.

Well - you prefer the current system. Not "there is not a single reason" to change it. There's a lot of subjectively in opinions that you seem to be failing to appreciate!

I would actually prefer to go back to a single free-for-all session. One of the biggest arguments people cite against it is that the cars would stay in the pits for most of the session. But that's a bogus argument, because the 12-lap rule is completely arbitrary and not in any way logically tied to it. It also doesn't have to be an hour.

I'd probably still have a tyre limit, but if we had tyres that weren't just good for their first lap then drivers could fuel up for four or five flying laps. Then four sets of tyres or so should cover the session (if we're sticking with an hour) quite nicely. I don't see the need for specific qualifying tyres. But if you think that's stretching it out, you could just have a single 20-minite session.

I find the current system to be a gimmick to try and artificially keep it interesting throughout the session and trying to deliver us with bite-size pieces of interest spread out over the hour. But actually I find having quite a long Q1 just to get rid of five backmarkers actually quite boring and rather pointless. Obviously it's artificially spiced up further by having the faster drivers trying to make it through on the slower tyre to keep up some sort of interest, but this is pure show rather than anything resembling sport.

Also Q3 is often a bit of an anti-climax. The most exciting part of qualifying is often the battle to make it into Q3 - so for the battle at the bottom of the top ten. While the top drivers are doing "just enough" to get through Q1 and Q2, we still generally see enough of an indication of their form and when we actually get to Q3 there are rarely many surprises. So why bother implementing arbitrary rules aimed at artificially holding back the pace of the frontrunners for the first two of three parts, when it does little to keep up the suspense anyway? So we might as well make the early laps actually count for the grid. Yes, we will still then see the form early on, but since we do so anyway, resetting the lap times is just a gimmick.

While the first half of the one-hour sessions were often boring (which has nothing to do with it being a single free-for-all session as pointed out), when it did hot up, I preferred it to what we have now.

[superden]

Subjective opinion is not fact.

[sabjit]

@PatenGlass

 

Okay so your first point, a single 20 minute session would just be chaos, they would all try and pile in at the end and traffic would be horrendous especially if tyres need a few laps to warm up it would be a lottery on traffic to determine the grid and not merit which is not how it should be.

 

Second point, the current system allows teams at the back some sponsor coverage. A few times in the previous seasons it was sometimes asked if Caterham or Marussia might be able to squeeze through and sometimes they did. These days it gives coverage to Mclaren to see if they can get through whereas otherwise they would get no exposure at all which would be bad even for a team like McLaren who need a sponsor.

 

I disagree that Q3 is an anticlimax, the rest of the qualifying facilitates Q3 happening with little traffic and we can focus on speed and not have the traffic lottery I have talked about. Also I think a single session would be anti-climactic more often than the current format with cars just waiting until the end for best track conditions and then the pole time is determined just by being lucky with traffic.

 

So once again, no valid reason for single qualifying sessions.

[KingTiger]

Q3 is only anticlimactic now because Mercedes always win. Q3 was highly interesting in 07 to 13 when there was big competition for the positions.

[RottenAli]

I did throw up the idea about changes to qualifying, and I've yet another mad idea to add into the mix...

How about 4 x 1 hour long times sessions where each driver carries forward their fastest lap from each session. These fast times are added together to give a grid.

[scheivlak]

I did throw up the idea about changes to qualifying, and I've yet another mad idea to add into the mix...

How about 4 x 1 hour long times sessions where each driver carries forward their fastest lap from each session. These fast times are added together to give a grid.

Only some utter fanatic will follow Q for 4 hours,  it obstructs the supporting races and added times just aren't that exciting (there will be quite a possibility that the starting order is already more or less fixed after 3 of the 4 sessions unless somebody makes a mistake so in the final sessions nobody really will take chances).

[redraven9]

As someone who didnt watch F1 in the early 2000's, how did the one lap qualy work? I mean it was quite unfair that some drivers had to go out in worse conditions (track evolution and all that).

 

I think the current qualy system is fine.

Edited by redraven9, 12 July 2015 - 20:55.

[DILLIGAF]

The current F1 format is excellent, but there should be no connection between qualifying and race with regards to tyres. Qualify on what you want. Start on what you want.

+1

[Fastcake]

If you returned to the old one-hour system there won't be any more action in the final 10 minutes than there is in Q3 now. If it looks like there is less action in recent years, that is partially because Mercedes and Red Bull's advantage means not everyone has tried too hard, but mainly due to the rule changes in 2011. Overtaking is now easier, so grid position is less vital than it was before, resulting in a more calm qualifying session. Also, even if it wasn't, teams have to save more sets of Pirelli tyres for the race anyway, so unnecessary qualifying runs are avoided. If you go back to 2010, Q3 often had frantic battles between the top 10 throughout the session, easily comparable to anything we saw before.

 

 

Also if we're comparing the systems, the current format means pole is guaranteed to be decided in the final few minutes, which is great for entertainment. In the past, qualifying would often fizzle out if someone set a pole time with twenty minutes to go, or the track conditions deteriorated enough that everyone ran out the clock in the garages.

[Nonesuch]

Out of these options, I'll throw a vote at one-lap qualifying.

 

I don't understand the hype about the current format. The longer it's been around the less of qualifying I watch. These days I often don't even bother, or wait until the final five minutes. It doesn't interest me to see who ends up 18th on the grid, and when the top 10 is finally decided it's done in such a manner that we hardly get to see significant parts of the important laps.

[chhatra]

Introduce 2 qualy sessions like MotoGP.

Take times from 3rd practice and in Q1 let them fight for 11-20th. Then Q2 have a top 10 shootout.

Give them all 3 sets of tires and have 15 minute sessions giving them each 3 shots.

Edited by chhatra, 12 July 2015 - 22:37.

[Skaffen]

I remember them trying out a few options after the one hour format and as soon as they got to what was (effectively) the current format it just seemed obviously significantly better. Of all the things that could be changed with the current F1 rules qualifying seems so uncontroversial that I can't believe they would seriously change it. There's a decent amount of action, the odd surprising result, a bit of tactics and the fastest cars generally get towards the front of the grid. I can't think of a format I would prefer.

[PlatenGlass]

Okay so your first point, a single 20 minute session would just be chaos, they would all try and pile in at the end and traffic would be horrendous especially if tyres need a few laps to warm up it would be a lottery on traffic to determine the grid and not merit which is not how it should be.

It would be no more chaotic than the final 20 minutes in the old-style one-hour qualifying since they all went out at the end anyway. Most drivers are also out at the end of Q1 in today's qualifying. And in neither case was it too bad on most occasions.
 

Second point, the current system allows teams at the back some sponsor coverage. A few times in the previous seasons it was sometimes asked if Caterham or Marussia might be able to squeeze through and sometimes they did. These days it gives coverage to Mclaren to see if they can get through whereas otherwise they would get no exposure at all which would be bad even for a team like McLaren who need a sponsor.

I'd consider this a fairly minor consideration. In the old one-hour qualifying, the backmarkers would often go out early for this coverage anyway.
 

I disagree that Q3 is an anticlimax, the rest of the qualifying facilitates Q3 happening with little traffic and we can focus on speed and not have the traffic lottery I have talked about. Also I think a single session would be anti-climactic more often than the current format with cars just waiting until the end for best track conditions and then the pole time is determined just by being lucky with traffic.

In the past while traffic sometimes played a part, I don't think it was normally that significant. And it still can do in Q1, and indeed on occasion in Q3. Also with one single session, while someone might have their best lap ruined by traffic, they're still going to be able to get a fairly representative lap on a previous lap even if track conditions aren't quite as good.

So once again, no valid reason for single qualifying sessions.

Plenty of reasons!

[TurnOffTheLights]

I really loved the 1 hour-12 laps qualifying system. I'd have no problem at all with re-introducing it.

 

But let's be realistic, in the final years of that system the track has been completely empty for the first 30 minutes at most weekends, because track conditions have been so important it didn't make any sense to go out early. TV channels were showing an empty track, were trying to talk about nothing, and after qualifying 2-3 drivers were complaining about too much traffic in their hot lap. It was embarrasing.

As much as I liked it (and kept watching that empty track weekend for weekend) - these are the main reasons it will never come back.

 

The current format surely is a bit more artificial, but also more contributing for the spectacle without feeling like a gimmick.

 

- It's as fair as the 1hour-12 laps format - everybody has the same chances. Individual time trial in changing conditions for example was a joke.

- There will never be 5 or even more minutes without drivers on track.

- We always get to know the polesitter during the last 10 minutes, often not until the last seconds.

- Sometimes a top car has some problems and struggles to get into Q2 or Q3 thus making the starting grid more exciting.

- With the old 1 hour format most of the time every driver had 4 attempts: 4x outlap - hot lap - inlap. So making mistakes wasn't punished hard. Nowadays drivers only have 1 or 2 attempts in every part of qualifying, so mistakes can become more costly thus again making the starting grid more exciting.

- The track is not as crowded at the end of qualifying as it has been with the 1hour-12 laps format, so top drivers complaining about other drivers has become less common.

 

Conclusion: my heart wants to vote for the old 1 hour-12 laps format, but my brain says, the current format is the best we ever had.

Edited by TurnOffTheLights, 12 July 2015 - 23:19.

[HP]

In my opinion opinion what's wrong with the current format.

 

- If there is a car problem in the beginning a team is screwed. Same goes for a strategic error (Leading to a shock exit).

- Top cars get more laps, in which they have the opportunity to fiddle with those settings that they are allowed to change.

 

I prefer a system where everybody gets equal chances. The nearest IMO is still the 1 hour 12 laps format. The moans there were, no running at the beginning, and drivers complaining that someone destroyed their laps.

 

The first argument can be counteracted with less time, or more laps, the drivers arguments can be taken the current solution, or disallowing the fastest lap, etc.

 

Parc ferme rules should be changed so that parts (except wings, tires and certain fluids) cannot be changed, but teams can run a qualification set-up. That might avoid the predictability of pole positions we have these days, and force cars that run better with full tanks and in race trim to actually have to do something to overtake. 

 

Again, the goal should be that everyone has the same chances, but preferably avoid teams building qualifying specials. Even though I have to say qualifying specials do have their charm, putting in an extra powerful power plant for qualy seems still excessive, but the spectacle was enjoyable. Extra light brake systems, etc. just for qualifying, should not be possible. Broken parts that need replacement can be replaced but there needs a good system for homologation in place so teams change absolutely identical pieces.

[noikeee]

In my opinion opinion what's wrong with the current format.

 

- If there is a car problem in the beginning a team is screwed. Same goes for a strategic error (Leading to a shock exit).

 

That's a good thing, not a bad thing. Mixes up the grid in a not-overly-unfair way. If you mess up with your car or your strategy it's your fault.

 

- Top cars get more laps, in which they have the opportunity to fiddle with those settings that they are allowed to change.

 

It's a very minimal advantage. Those extra 15 or 25 minutes under pressure doing single laps, aren't going to give them huge setup breakthroughs when every team has got an equal 270 minutes of free practices, when they were able to do long stints.

[ElJefe]

Current format, but I want to see more liberty in terms of tyre choice and set-up i.e. overhaul the current parc ferme rules and allow for a warm-up session on Sunday. (I'm not advocating a return to complete qualifying cars/engines etc., but allow teams to make some set-up changes.) That way we will see laps on the absolute limit, which will bring back some of the great laps we saw during the old 12-lap format without the track being empty for the first half an hour of the session. 

[kvyatfan]

Tie one of the McLaren cars to a zipline and whip it around like one of the rabbits at the dog track.

[R Soul]

I also like the current system, but with some changes. They should be allowed to change their setups (so you-know-who can find the balance), and the tyre rule needs to be shoved up somewhere.

[ANF]

- With the old 1 hour format most of the time every driver had 4 attempts: 4x outlap - hot lap - inlap. So making mistakes wasn't punished hard. Nowadays drivers only have 1 or 2 attempts in every part of qualifying, so mistakes can become more costly thus again making the starting grid more exciting.

That's very true. But on the other hand, I think the drivers used to push harder when they had four attempts for that very reason – they could afford to throw one or two laps away – and that would sometimes be very exciting. Today they only get two runs in Q3, and sometimes the first run is on a scrubbed set of tyres.

[TurnOffTheLights]

That's very true. But on the other hand, I think the drivers used to push harder when they had four attempts for that very reason – they could afford to throw one or two laps away – and that would sometimes be very exciting. Today they only get two runs in Q3, and sometimes the first run is on a scrubbed set of tyres.

 

That's correct. But if everyone can push as hard as possible without fearing mistakes we'll get starting grids determined by the strength of the car only. No surprises at all.

Furthermore, we still see drivers pushing - as you said - in Q3, for example. Just remember Rosberg and Hamilton both going off in Austria qualifying. Or Ricciardo exceeding track limits in Silverstone.

And do you really, really care to see the Manors and McLarens push harder (if TV channels had mercy to show them)? They'd still be much slower than a non-pushing Mercedes. But maybe they are already pushing very hard in Q1, because they've got nothing to lose?

 

Formula 1 has got big problems with their races when pushing is punished so hard that nobody is pushing anymore. In qualifying pushing hard still makes sense - perhaps not in every situation, but often enough. That's especially the case for top teams and those are the ones we wanna see pushing, don't we?

Edited by TurnOffTheLights, 13 July 2015 - 01:03.

[Tsarwash]

The present quali system is the only aspect that they have just right currently. 

[v@sh]

I like the current qualifying system but I would tweak it slightly. I would go back to single lap time trial qualifying in reverse championship order like it used to be but this would only be to get into the top 10 12 minute shootout like we currently have in Q3.

 

This would allow minnows to get some tv exposure, show us how good the drivers laps are and also appreciate their skill, it will also help mix up the grid while also keeping the shootout at the end we all like. That's what I would do anyway.

[SB]

Never understood what was wrong with old one-hour twelve laps format, apart from little action in the first half hour. The last five minutes used to be electrifying - usually the best part of the race-weekend. I'd say one hour, 15 laps, but they must set a lap in each 20-minute bracket. Dealing with traffic is part of the game.

 

One silly red flag caused Maldonado would cost all the following drivers (on the track) two laps at least from their limited 12-laps quota. Never believe this is a fair system.

[Tourgott]

The 1 hour qualifying was just what F1 was all about back then: Do whatever you want to win the race.

Todays qualifying fits perfectly in the artificial and restricted F1 we have.

Edited by Tourgott, 13 July 2015 - 05:47.

[encircled]

I'll keep the current format but with modifications. Q1 will determine the top 10 that will move to Q2. Q2 will determine the top 5 for a one-lap shootout or the current 12 minute session in Q3.

Also, scrap the will start the race with the qualiying tires used. Let them have the freedom to choose which tires they'll start the race with.

[SenorSjon]

Current format, but I want to see more liberty in terms of tyre choice and set-up i.e. overhaul the current parc ferme rules and allow for a warm-up session on Sunday. (I'm not advocating a return to complete qualifying cars/engines etc., but allow teams to make some set-up changes.) That way we will see laps on the absolute limit, which will bring back some of the great laps we saw during the old 12-lap format without the track being empty for the first half an hour of the session. 

 

With current tire limitations (six sets for the race), you don't need the 12 lap max anymore.

 

But we went over this just a month ago: http://forums.autosp...-in-motorsport/