41 replies to this topic

[SWAN]

Its great to see Williams doing better these days. They are talking very racy about taking on Ferrari, bringing upgrades to each race, taking on staff...my question/discussion point is - can they really be doing this well on their quoted budget of 100m?

 

This is the same as Lotus spend, and half to a third of what Merc, Ferrari, and Red Bull spend...

 

Or do we think its likely the 2014 and 2015 budgets are going to be much higher since they got new sponsors etc?

[aramos]

Were are you getting that quoted budget from?

 

In short, no, they're budget would be 2.5x that.

[tmekt]

Were are you getting that quoted budget from?

And you?

Would make sense actually if they were operating under such a small budget, it was not long ago when they were in financial trouble and they lost PDVSA's money with Maldonado. I'm sure Martini doesn't pay quite as much as they are a real company with different goals as Venezuelan government.

EDIT: I do suspect it's a bit bigger than 100M (whatever currency that is)

Edited by tmekt, 13 July 2015 - 09:07.

[Gilles4Ever]

In 2014 their FOM payout alone was $83 million, I very much doubt Williams and their sponsors only put in $17 million and still run at a massive loss

[scheivlak]

Were are you getting that quoted budget from?

 

 

Possibly from last year's Autosport article (October 30) mentioning Williams' budget as £105 million.

Edited by scheivlak, 13 July 2015 - 09:16.

[Jambo]

Their budget was 120 million in 2014 based off this http://bleacherrepor...ormula-1-season . I imagine it would be around 160-170 this year? Hard to say.

Edited by Jambo, 13 July 2015 - 09:10.

[Marklar]

Apparently Williams had an budget of 150m in 2014

https://infogr.am/te...t-and-employees

[Laster]

Different sources give different amounts this is the first one I found from a google search - https://infogr.am/te...oyees?src=embed

What I know is Williams made a huge loss in their annual earnings in order to push themselves up the grid, and if I recall correctly they knew it would happen but in order to reach the top you have to take risks.

I think you can count on them spending more than all the midfield teams, but spending less than the likes of Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari, and Mclaren. They'd lie somewhere between these two groups with their budget.

[aramos]

And you?

Would make sense actually if they were operating under such a small budget, it was not long ago when they were in financial trouble and they lost PDVSA's money with Maldonado. I'm sure Martini doesn't pay quite as much as they are a real company with different goals as Venezuelan government.

EDIT: I do suspect it's a bit bigger than 100M (whatever currency that is)

 

100 million is the type of money marussia run on. No one knows exact figures. But Williams would be spending at least 200 million dollars.

[aramos]

Their budget was 120 million in 2014 based off this http://bleacherrepor...ormula-1-season . I imagine it would be around 160-170 this year? Hard to say.

 

Are you talking pounds or dollars. That would be accurate in pounds as 160 million pounds is 250 million USD.

Edited by aramos, 13 July 2015 - 09:22.

[brr]

Of all the teams, Williams is the one whose budget does not require speculation and rumours. Their team is part of a publicly listed company, and annual reports are available. 2014 annual report states the F1 team revenue as 71.2 million pounds, and loss of 42.7 million pounds. One might assume that the figure 71.2+42.7 = 113.9 million pounds is a fair estimate of their 2014 budget.

[Force Ten]

Funny how one guy quotes numbers in pounds, another one in dollars, yet another in Euros. I mean, it's all just numbers, right and 150 is better than 105?

[hittheapex]

100 million is the type of money marussia run on. No one knows exact figures. But Williams would be spending at least 200 million dollars.

Not necessarily. Formula Money said that Toyota were spending well over $400m 2008/2009 and they were beaten by BMW Sauber who apparently were spending almost $100m less.

 

My point is that success isn't always an indication of spending more money. If it were Toyota and Honda would have dominated. The money helps, but people and facilities are just as important. It's an old article here but the point remains the same. Worth a read for the 2007 "dollars per point" alone. Compare Super Aguri and Toyota. Ouch.

http://www.f1fanatic...1-budget-4456m/

Edited by hittheapex, 13 July 2015 - 09:34.

[Gorma]

According to these figures in 2014 it was about 120 million pounds. That's about 185M USD in todays money.

 

http://www.williamsf...inancial-report

 

http://az732437.vo.m...2014.ashx?la=en

 

That's Williams' annual report. It does not get more accurate than that.

Edited by Gorma, 13 July 2015 - 09:34.

[Jambo]

I was talking in pounds, sorry.

[aramos]

Not necessarily. Formula Money said that Toyota were spending well over $400m 2008/2009 and they were beaten by BMW Sauber who apparently were spending almost $100m less.

My point is that success isn't always an indication of spending more money. If it were Toyota and Honda would have dominated. The money helps, but people and facilities are just as important. It's an old article here but the point remains the same. Worth a read for the 2007 "dollars per point" alone. Compare Super Aguri and Toyota. Ouch.
http://www.f1fanatic...1-budget-4456m/

100 million usd can barely keep the doors open on an f1 team these days. That is basically no R&D.

[YoungGun]

Must say Williams dollar spent per point ratio is just as good as Mercedes. Loads of value there.

Edited by YoungGun, 13 July 2015 - 10:51.

[Felix]

In 2014 their FOM payout alone was $83 million, I very much doubt Williams and their sponsors only put in $17 million and still run at a massive loss

FOM payouts are in U$, but as a public company Williams reports revenues in GB£, so £100m = $150m which ties in perfectly with the two numbers, just that there is some currency confusion. Of all teams - until Ferrari lists - Williams' financials are the easiest to analyse due to it being a listed company and adhering to stock exchange regulations. 

[SWAN]

thanks for the replies...I think I got the budget from James Allen blog but cant find the link...

 

Thats interesting info tho - I guess they have pushed it up but the Williams report itself you have to go on that...£120m - that is a pretty good effort....does that include the FOM payout - or what they spend themselves?

 

Nice to see FI do so well in efficiency - thats why I like and respect them and IMO is part of what F1 is about - smaller teams being savvy and taking on larger operations on small budgets...like the old Garagistas...

 

Wowser Ferrari spend a lot...

[Felix]

thanks for the replies...I think I got the budget from James Allen blog but cant find the link...

 

Thats interesting info tho - I guess they have pushed it up but the Williams report itself you have to go on that...£120m - that is a pretty good effort....does that include the FOM payout - or what they spend themselves?

 

Nice to see FI do so well in efficiency - thats why I like and respect them and IMO is part of what F1 is about - smaller teams being savvy and taking on larger operations on small budgets...like the old Garagistas...

 

Wowser Ferrari spend a lot...

The 120m quid figure includes income generated by Williams Advanced Engineering and other income such as systems for Formula E 

 

More here http://plus.autospor...1293.1414093472

Edited by Felix, 13 July 2015 - 11:56.

[Gorma]

thanks for the replies...I think I got the budget from James Allen blog but cant find the link...

 

Thats interesting info tho - I guess they have pushed it up but the Williams report itself you have to go on that...£120m - that is a pretty good effort....does that include the FOM payout - or what they spend themselves?

 

Nice to see FI do so well in efficiency - thats why I like and respect them and IMO is part of what F1 is about - smaller teams being savvy and taking on larger operations on small budgets...like the old Garagistas...

 

Wowser Ferrari spend a lot...

 

 

The 120m quid figure includes income generated by Williams Advanced Engineering and other income such as systems for Formula E 

 

More here http://plus.autospor...1293.1414093472

120 million is what they are spending regardless of income. They made a 43 million loss last year in Formula 1.

 

The income last year was about 96 million. 75 million from F1, 19 million from Williams Advanced Engineering and the rest from discontinued operations. 

[pdac]

Can people please prefix numbers with £ or $ or € or follow them with GBP or USD or EUR - it's very confusing otherwise.

[Talisman]

Not necessarily. Formula Money said that Toyota were spending well over $400m 2008/2009 and they were beaten by BMW Sauber who apparently were spending almost $100m less.

My point is that success isn't always an indication of spending more money. If it were Toyota and Honda would have dominated. The money helps, but people and facilities are just as important. It's an old article here but the point remains the same. Worth a read for the 2007 "dollars per point" alone. Compare Super Aguri and Toyota. Ouch.
http://www.f1fanatic...1-budget-4456m/

The $400 million figure was peak spending though and included the cost of upgrading Toyotas facilities. After a couple of seasons they dropped spending to a level comparable with the others. BMW had to spend less because sauber had already invested quite a bit before BMW got involved. I suspect Honda's spending patterns were similar to Toyotas, Brackley was pretty poorly equipped when they took over but not when they left.

[SWAN]

The 120m quid figure includes income generated by Williams Advanced Engineering and other income such as systems for Formula E 

 

More here http://plus.autospor...1293.1414093472

 

thanks - I think that was the place I had my original idea of figures from...

[Spillage]

Different sources give different amounts this is the first one I found from a google search - https://infogr.am/te...oyees?src=embed

What I know is Williams made a huge loss in their annual earnings in order to push themselves up the grid, and if I recall correctly they knew it would happen but in order to reach the top you have to take risks.

I think you can count on them spending more than all the midfield teams, but spending less than the likes of Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari, and Mclaren. They'd lie somewhere between these two groups with their budget.

This worries me. Are they still in the red? I hope they're not going to bankrupt themselves by being good, a la Barry Town. Something's really wrong if you can do as good a job as Williams have in the past couple of years and yet still go bust.

[Imateria]

This worries me. Are they still in the red? I hope they're not going to bankrupt themselves by being good, a la Barry Town. Something's really wrong if you can do as good a job as Williams have in the past couple of years and yet still go bust.

It has to be remembered though that FOM payments are made 12 months after the fact, so Williams wont get their money for 3rd in last years constructors championship until the end of the year. Given that their last two payments were for 8th and 9th place finishes respectively, they're in for a sizable cash injection for at least the next couple of years (given that their form doesn't completely collaps for the rest of the year).

 

All told though it's still a sizable budget gap to what the big 4 have, all estimated at between £200 and £250 million.

[SWAN]

a remarkable achievement in that case - that they are so competitive on their budget. I wonder who is gonna drive for them next year (slightly OT...)

[David Lightman]

Can't really compare to Ferrari and Mercedes as they make engines too (I know they make money back from selling them but even so, infrastructure and staff needed is huge).

[MortenF1]

Can't really compare to Ferrari and Mercedes as they make engines too (I know they make money back from selling them but even so, infrastructure and staff needed is huge).

But not from their F1 teams budget. Their operating costs wouldn't include developing an engine they are also selling. (….I mean, surely?)

[Imateria]

But not from their F1 teams budget. Their operating costs wouldn't include developing an engine they are also selling. (….I mean, surely?)

An interesting point, does Mercedes allocate money to the F1 operation as a whole or engine and team separately? In Ferrari's case who know's, they never release any information regarding budgets and tend to tell inquisitive journalists to mind their own business (see their response to Dieter Rencken last year).

[Imperial]

Do people actually care about the drivel Formula Money write?

[Jambo]

This worries me. Are they still in the red? I hope they're not going to bankrupt themselves by being good, a la Barry Town. Something's really wrong if you can do as good a job as Williams have in the past couple of years and yet still go bust.

The extra winnings from the higher constructor finish should cover that excess this year.

[Imateria]

The extra winnings from the higher constructor finish should cover that excess this year.

Next year, you mean. They won't get the higher winnings until the end of the year.

[Counterbalance]

All you're answers are here, folks.

 

http://www.williamsf...inancial-report

[ionutf1fan]

According with the annual reports:

2014: Expenses 118 mil pounds

2013: Expenses 97 mil pounds

2012: Expenses 94 mil poiunds

 

Not really a dramatic increase in expenses in 2014. Rather the success is based on the Mercedes engine, probably a better version than the one received by Lotus or Force India.

Give them a Renault engine and will be nowhere.

[Talisman]

Not really a dramatic increase in expenses in 2014. Rather the success is based on the Mercedes engine, probably a better version than the one received by Lotus or Force India.

Give them a Renault engine and will be nowhere.

 

Bit harsh, in fact clearly untrue.

 

Williams are the best of the non-Mercedes Mercedes runners.  They were never close to being the quickest or second quickest Renault runners.  There clearly has been a significant improvement in the chassis.

 

My concern with Williams is how much of their budget comes from selling off their non-F1 subsiduaries.  Without an alternative income stream they could be vulnerable if they go through a period of poor results and lose some sponsors.

Edited by Talisman, 15 July 2015 - 21:56.

[Anderis]

They were never close to being the quickest or second quickest Renault runners.

I would say they were in 2012. Maybe they were outperformed over a season significantly by Red Bull and Lotus, but their drivers were underperforming massively. It was clear that car was the quickest or second quickest among Renault runners in a bunch of races throughout the year.

[Talisman]

I would say they were in 2012. Maybe they were outperformed over a season significantly by Red Bull and Lotus, but their drivers were underperforming massively. It was clear that car was the quickest or second quickest among Renault runners in a bunch of races throughout the year.

 

You are right of course, but then much of the early part of that season IIRC seemed to be a lottery as to who could get the best out of the Pirellis on any given weekend.  Their win came out of nowhere following a prolonged drought which switching to Renault power did little otherwise to alleviate.

Edited by Talisman, 15 July 2015 - 22:27.

[black magic]

only?

 

how nuts is that to produce 2 cars that do what 10,000km in a year.

[sopa]

Without being an insider I have to say 150 Million sounds about right, or should I say realistic... in which currency is that 150 M I am unsure though.

 

This means Williams is ahead of cash-strapped teams like Lotus, Force India or Sauber, who are consistently on the verge of "collapse" according to news. Williams seems to be firmly operating above that level for now.

 

At the same time Williams is behind all of Mercedes, Red Bull Racing, Ferrari and most probably McLaren-Honda too (despite McLaren not having title sponsorship?). All works teams should be at least above the 200 M level (asterisk on McLaren-Honda though). Currency is open for debate once again though.

[SealTheDiffuser]

AMUS: cashstrapped Williams (trying) to sell Bottas to Ferrari for 20 Mio $:

 

https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 17 July 2015 - 10:42.

[FullThrottleF1]

Another team in the doldrums. Happy Bernie?