32 replies to this topic

[Fatgadget]

A necessary evil or the downtrodden scum of the F1 circus?...Always been the case,the likes of Andrea Moda,Life,March, Minardi etc and recently Cateraham and Manor/ Marusia being derided.

 

Surely without these tail enders F1 wouldn't exist no?

[RockBrocaine]

It's not a matter of needing them. F1 could have all their teams represented by every major car manufacturer in the world ,but someone has to come last. In any team sport, there's a team(s) that lingers in last place.

[warp]

We need a place where the Alonsos of the world have a break and start an F1 career at. I figure something similar will happen at the engineers, mechanics, etc. level.

 

Not everyone can land a job at a top paid team on their first campaign but if you show your worth, eventually you can jump to better things... or not.

[Afterburner]

It's not a matter of needing them. F1 could have all their teams represented by every major car manufacturer in the world ,but someone has to come last. In any team sport, there's a team(s) that lingers in last place.

There will always be someone in first, too. Even if there's only one...

 

Worth remembering.

[Sash1]

Look where McLaren would be most of this year if it weren't for Manor still showing up for whatever reason.

[BlackCat]

March definitely does not fit the list. There were bad years but also 3 GP wins, 5 pole positions, 7 fastest laps, two 3rd places among constructors. And yes, there should be teams that do not qualify for every GP, even teams that do not pre-qualify...

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

I have a lot of respect for anyone involved in racing. They are good and talented people who work their butts off trying to get a good product on the grid. Sometimes there are clowns who put together and try to run the show, but I look past those management types (Sassetti of Andrea Moda is a very good example) and have respect for the engineers and drivers. In the present circumstances a team such as Manor is at the back of the grid not because the people are laughable, but because of the simple fact they don't have enough money.

 

At the beginning of the season some teams had longer noses. But they had the resources and money to develop the better short nose, one that requires a lot of money to develop. That is just one example, the back markers have to spend their money wisely and can never be as fast as the teams with a lot more money to spend.

 

While any sport always have their share of jerk fans who are born with bad manners and foul mouths, I have a LOT of respect for most back markers because while it is easier to give up, they soldier on, working harder, longer hours knowing they will not stand on the podium, but for most, because of their love of the sport and being able to participate in it.

 

One must also remember that most back marker teams were very good in other series. For instance Sauber was a big force in endurance racing, they have a LeMans win to their credit. But when you get to play with the big dogs, it becomes obvious you need a lot more money and the ability to put together a package of management and processes that produce wins. It is incredibly difficult to run at the front, just the slightest shortcoming in any department or car part can put you at the back of the grid.

 

In any professional sport you will have teams at the bottom, and they are necessary to that sport. And it is necessary to remember that some teams that spent years at the bottom progressed and improved to the point where they became a top team. Sir Frank Williams started from the very bottom, spent years at the bottom, and look where he is now. At one point he conducted team business from a telephone box.

 

For most of those people at the bottom, I have more respect for them than the rest.

[V8 Fireworks]

A necessary evil or the downtrodden scum of the F1 circus?...Always been the case,the likes of Andrea Moda,Life,March, Minardi etc and recently Cateraham and Manor/ Marusia being derided.

 

Surely without these tail enders F1 wouldn't exist no?

Somebody has to come last.  It's less embaressing for McLaren this way. 

[Spillage]

What's wrong with them? Toro Rosso and Force India were once marooned on the back of the grid. This year they'll both outscore Mclaren.

[oetzi]

Apart from all the reasonable reasons, nobody would look good in F1 if nobody looked bad.

[OvDrone]

Who doesn't love a Minardi? C'mon.

[chhatra]

For the thousand of people who would lose their jobs, yes F1 needs those teams.

The results may be shocking but that doesn't change the reality that there are some hard working boys and girls trying their level best.

Their efforts shouldn't be forgotten just because they aren't fighting for the win.

[Fatgadget]

Must say its rather amusing watching a top team - McLaren with world class drivers languishing at the back of the field. Unprecedented? What other once top teams have sunk so low?

[Radoye]

Must say its rather amusing watching a top team - McLaren with world class drivers languishing at the back of the field. Unprecedented? What other once top teams have sunk so low?

 

To name a few:

 

https://en.wikipedia...nd_Prix_results

https://en.wikipedia...nd_Prix_results

https://en.wikipedia...nd_Prix_results

https://en.wikipedia...nd_Prix_results

https://en.wikipedia...nd_Prix_results

[Baddoer]

Every edem have it's abyss.

[blackgerby]

Only those ignorant of f1 and the amount of hard work and achievement to be within 107% deride those teams at the back end of the grid.

[sopa]

A necessary evil or the downtrodden scum of the F1 circus?...Always been the case,the likes of Andrea Moda,Life,March, Minardi etc and recently Cateraham and Manor/ Marusia being derided.

 

Surely without these tail enders F1 wouldn't exist no?

 

You have answered your pondering with your last question.

 

When I look at F1 history, usually there are something like... 3/4 to 7 works teams. Or should I say big teams. 7 is actually quite a luxury, "a lot", like in mid-to-late 2000s. Usually it is less. The other are underfunded privateer teams to a bigger or lesser extent. Some operate respectably (like i.e Petronas-badged Sauber used to), however others fight for survival. But usually there are no more than 8-9 teams overall, who are financially in a relatively decent shape. So to get 20 cars on the grid, we usually have such teams too, who genuinely struggle for survival.

 

Nature of the competition I guess. The lower down the field you are, the lesser is sponsor interest. Companies don't want to put their logos on your car too easily if you trundle around 15th positions and barely catch attention. This unless you are a big team, are considered to have "lots of potential" as a team and potential sponsors still consider you a good long-term investment.

[Donkey]

A necessary evil or the downtrodden scum of the F1 circus?...Always been the case,the likes of Andrea Moda,Life,March, Minardi etc and recently Cateraham and Manor/ Marusia being derided.

 

Surely without these tail enders F1 wouldn't exist no?

If you didn't have them then you potentially wouldn't have drivers like Alonso/Webber/Button in F1.

[MLC]

Must say its rather amusing watching a top team - McLaren with world class drivers languishing at the back of the field. Unprecedented? What other once top teams have sunk so low?

Some teams have won the WDC and then been nowhere the following year; Lotus in 1978 to '79 and Ferrari in 1979 to '80.

[oetzi]

At least they'd won the WDC the previous year.

[Rob]

Who doesn't love a Minardi? C'mon.

 

Minardi were practically midfielders when I started watching. There was a buffer zone beneath them of Forti, Pacific and Simtek that managed to rapidly collapse and leave Minardi exposed.

 

The sport is worse off without the smaller teams. They have some of the most passion for the sport you're likely to find in the paddock.

[jonpollak]

Max Chilton just won the IndyLights race in Iowa!
Jp

[wookles]

Although I understand the topic I think it's unfair to include March in that list. They won races!

 

Someone has to come last, that always has been and always will be the case. When teams end up in that position more often than not, eventually they become victim to the great balance book in the sky and are no more.

 

If F1 is anything it is a Darwinian experience with teams at the bottom end of the food chain not lasting long.

 

Everyone in F1 deserves our support and respect, from the fans point of view we all want more cars on the grid than less, which just draws us back to the basic unfairness of how money for points and participation is being handed out. It needs fixing or we really will end up with 12 cars and 4 teams on the grid.

[wookles]

Max Chilton just won the IndyLights race in Iowa!
Jp

 

Good work fella! I would have liked to have seen the chap in a better car. Very hard to judge ppl in a Manor or a Caterham. Except, sadly, Jules Bianchi who clearly had something more.

[noikeee]

I agree with everyone else who's saying someone must come last, and no doubt I think Manor's very valuable to the grid even if just for fulfilling a decent number of cars for watching and seats for drivers. But I do think cases like this are bizarre as they languish several seconds off anyone else, with zero hopes of ever beating any competitor on merit - that seems a little pointless. From their point of view, I don't really know what are they trying to do beyond surviving.

Edited by noikeee, 20 July 2015 - 08:52.

[RedBaron]

We need teams like Manor and McLaren in Formula 1. I know their cars look bare without sponsors and they're slow but they're not there just to make up the numbers. 

[FullThrottleF1]

I agree with everyone else who's saying someone must come last, and no doubt I think Manor's very valuable to the grid even if just for fulfilling a decent number of cars for watching and seats for drivers. But I do think cases like this are bizarre as they languish several seconds off anyone else, with zero hopes of ever beating any competitor on merit - that seems a little pointless. From their point of view, I don't really know what are they trying to do beyond surviving.

Well I'd like to see your F1 team try and beat anyone with a modified 2014 car, a rubbish 2014 Ferrari engine and having to restructure a team which has just collapsed. 

[noikeee]

I understand why they are in the position they are. Showing up at the GPs this season must feel rather pointless to a lot of their staff though. I can't possibly imagine they are any motivated.

 

Even McLaren are a little different, as amazingly bad as they are for their expectations, they have loads of things to learn from the new engine partnership. But Manor are kinda stuck there until they build a new car and get a decent engine - so they cruise around a million miles off anyone else's pace. It just looks so pointless man. Better than packing up, going home, losing their jobs and depleting the grid from even more cars, but still. That's barely "competing".

[Fisico54]

I agree with everyone else who's saying someone must come last, and no doubt I think Manor's very valuable to the grid even if just for fulfilling a decent number of cars for watching and seats for drivers. But I do think cases like this are bizarre as they languish several seconds off anyone else, with zero hopes of ever beating any competitor on merit - that seems a little pointless. From their point of view, I don't really know what are they trying to do beyond surviving.

You don't seem to understand racing, ambition or indeed sport

[alaim]

Good work fella! I would have liked to have seen the chap in a better car. Very hard to judge ppl in a Manor or a Caterham. Except, sadly, Jules Bianchi who clearly had something more.

 

Whilst I think Chilton wasn't good enough to be an F1 driver I agree with your point. Like Kobayashi who was proven to be decent, granted not a world beater, looked trash in the Caterham purely because there wasn't much performance to extract.

[jonpollak]

Good work fella! .... Jules Bianchi who clearly had something more.

He sure did..Check THIS out.


Jp

[mclarensmps]

These teams aren't run by robots. Small teams are a great place for budding engineers and designers to cut their teeth. They are often the best places for new graduates to find work in the industry.

 

This thread serves as proof that fan votes should not be a major factor when deciding how this sport should be run. 

[Radoye]

I agree with everyone else who's saying someone must come last, and no doubt I think Manor's very valuable to the grid even if just for fulfilling a decent number of cars for watching and seats for drivers. But I do think cases like this are bizarre as they languish several seconds off anyone else, with zero hopes of ever beating any competitor on merit - that seems a little pointless. From their point of view, I don't really know what are they trying to do beyond surviving.

 

Actually, the difference between Manor and Mercedes today is less than the difference between the top team and say a high midfield team some 20-25 years ago. It wasn't unusual back then to have cars on the grid that were 10+ seconds behind the polesitter. The field is so much tighter today, moreso than ever before, which shows that even Manor as hopeless as they are still do a great job. Especially knowing how limited resources they have - give them a Mercedes budget, and they might not be the champion but surely they won't be the tail end charlie either.