119 replies to this topic

[MightyMoose]

A couple of observations.

 

Dan Wheldon drove 98 in the Indy 500 in 2011, his number at Las Vegas was 77.  There's some background as to why he swapped with his team mate Alex Tagliani but I honestly can't recall what it was, maybe some team/sponsor deal.  I'd prefer to remember him in 98 or 25 which he ran in 2005.  I don't associate 27 with Gilles because he died with it.

 

NASCAR didn't retire 3 but it remains the teams to use, Richard Childress decided not to use it until his grandson Austin Dillon came up.  Dale Jr did use it in a Nationwide race in 2012 I think which created a bit of attention.  When Kevin Harvick came in as Dale's direct replacement, the car number was 29 which remained Harvicks until he left for Stewart Haas and took 4.

 

Who knows what the FIA would have done in say 1994 had driver's owned numbers, maybe they would have retired RR & AS, maybe not. Perhaps they feel having utterly dropped the ball at Suzuka and then wasted no time in dumping all the blame on Bianchi who of course was in no state to respond they should show some consideration & remorse.

 

Having said that, a period where the number isn't used would have sufficed imo.

[zanquis]

From a complete list just from F1 fatalities in GP weekends* we'd have to retire:

 

2 - Not currently allocated (Musso, Collins and Senna)

4 - Chilton (von Trips and Courage)

5 - Vettel (Siffert)

6 - Rosberg (Marimon, Hocking, Cevert and Peterson)

12 - Nasr (Lewis-Evans)

14 - Alonso (Williamson)

16 - Not currently allocated (Stacey, Taylor, Revson and Pryce)

18 - Not currently allocated (Bandini and Schlesser)

19 - Massa (Koinigg)

22 - Button (Schell and Rindt)

24 - Not currently allocated (Mitter)

27 - Hulkenberg (Villeneuve)

28 - Stevens (Donohue)

29 - Not currently allocated (de Beaufort)

32 - Not currently allocated (Paletti and Ratzenberger)

36 - Not currently allocated (Bristow)

 

Plus a couple of early ones whose numbers I couldn't find. Not too many currently being used, but obviously a few there that have seen more than one death. Actually surprising how many have multiple deaths associated with them.

 

Given that 27 out of the 98 available have already been allocated, would removing so many numbers be a good idea?

 

*Not counting tests and championship non-F1 events like the F2 years and the Indy 500s.

 

Ironically, with the nr 16/17 as they where for teammates, Pryce had nr 16 and his teammate, a Italian, had 17, which apparantly is a badluck number in Italy. After the accident he asked if he could switch numbers, after which the teambossed asked if he was sure since it did not bring much luck to poor Tom. 

And with 4 deaths to car nr 16 and now 1 to nr 17. 16 sounds more like a unlucky number then any.

[george1981]

On the one hand I wouldn't want to see a driver use #17 in the near future but after about 10-15 years there might be another up and coming driver who is Jules-esque. I would like him to have the opportunity (with Jules' family's consent) to race #17 to keep the memory of Jules alive.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

I must admit, part of me disagrees with the decision to retire #17, purely because I don't think any driver in the short/medium term will want to use it, however 50 years down the line a driver may want to choose it. I believe it should be the choice of the driver (in conjunction with Jules' family) whether the number is used, rather than it being taken out of everyones hands (though I do understand the reason behind retiring #17).

[JRUK]

If this makes a casual fan or a future fan learn a little more about Bianchi's life and career then that is a good thing. It is not as if having to use some number other than #17 is such a hardship.

[Jimisgod]

I think it's good because it will give a lasting legacy for a young driver who never had the opportunity to become a WDC and it forces the fans to face the finality of death if we allow lax safety standards. F1 doesn't need edgy teen fans who watch for the crashes and danger because they're disassociated with the risk involved.

[Paco]

Ridiculous. 1st the idea of driver numbers, now retiring a number for him.. Major eye roll, I agree with above... Easily 99% of fans wouldn't have a clue what number he raced with..I bet 50% wouldn't even have remembered which teams and how many races he competed in. I feel bad for him him and his family and it sucks what happened but he was in f1 for such a small time and didn't have time to accomplish much.. Not worthy of a number retirement.

[JRUK]

Easily 99% of fans wouldn't have a clue what number he raced with..I bet 50% wouldn't even have remembered which teams and how many races he competed in.

 

All the more reason to do something which will help him be remembered. Like retiring his number.

 

You must have very little value for human life if you believe that asking a new driver to chose a number other than #17 is such a huge effort that Jules Bianchi is "not worthy" of it.

Edited by JRUK, 21 July 2015 - 13:17.

[Henri Greuter]

I can't make up my mind about appreciating #17 being retired by FIA for F1 yes or no. Somehow it is nice. But since it wasn't done in the past, then why now? Out of guilt for their share in the string of events that resulten int the eventual fatal accident?

I can agree with both parties in the debate of yes or no retiring #17.

 

But it makes me wonder what FIA would have done if it had not been a `personal number` yet and Jules had been using a number allocated to him because of Marussia been given those team numbers by default like in 2013.

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 21 July 2015 - 13:34.

[superden]

All the more reason to do something which will help him be remembered. Like retiring his number.

You must have very little value for human life if you believe that asking a new driver to chose a number other than #17 is such a huge effort that Jules Bianchi is "not worthy" of it.

Are you suggesting he isn't worthy of being remembered without this mawkish, PR driven and ultimately empty gesture?

It won't make anyone remember him, in fact, the absence of #17 on the grid will only make people forget. Most people probably have no idea what number Senna had on his car in 1994 and he died trackside, live on air.

Superswede Ronnie Peterson was involved in a massive accident at Monza in 1978, partly as a result of poor organisation by the governing body and died later of his injuries. Sound familiar? What number was on his Lotus that day? Does it matter? Was he forgotten? No, he certainly wasn't.

Those who wish to remember Bianchi will do so. The rest wouldn't have remembered anyway.

[Jimisgod]

I can't make up my mind about appreciating #17 being retired by FIA for F1 yes or no. Somehow it is nice. But since it wasn't done in the past, then why now? Out of guilt for their share in the string of events that resulten int the eventual fatal accident?

I can agree with both parties in the debate of yes or no retiring #17.

 

But it makes me wonder what FIA would have done if it had not been a `personal number` yet and Jules had been using a number allocated to him because of Marussia been given those team numbers by default like in 2013.

 

Henri

 

I think it's because prior to 1994 it was just accepted that drivers would die driving. The sport reached a point where it was conceivable that Senna would be the final death in F1 due to placing safety as priority #1. Of course, the lax standards of both drivers and stewarding under yellows was the weak link.

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable that Senna was the 'line in the sand' and every death after him can be considered of a different era where (to corrupt the overused phrase) 'sex was dangerous and racing was safe'. The sport sure entered a different era with the changes immediately after his accident and I think it's ok the number situation reflects that.

[Buttoneer]

All the more reason to do something which will help him be remembered. Like retiring his number.
 
You must have very little value for human life if you believe that asking a new driver to chose a number other than #17 is such a huge effort that Jules Bianchi is "not worthy" of it.

Is it showing value in human life to mark it with the removal of a number? I have seen views here that it would be right for all the drivers to have #17 on their car this weekend as a mark of respect too. In 2014 when this all started, if someone had taken #27 as a 'mark of respect' to Gilles Villeneuve, would that have been wide of the mark or would we all have praised that driver for his knowledge and respect of the past greats?

There's not really a right or wrong answer to this, so IMO it's probably better that they don't make any sort of empty gesture at all, and instead do something more meaningful.

[smitten]

All the more reason to do something which will help him be remembered. Like retiring his number.

 

If somebody doesn't know about/remember Bianchi, then the absence of the 17 for other drivers to use isn't going to spread the knowledge.  (unless we are constantly reminded that 17 isn't available, in which case we could just as easily be reminded that we'd lost the man rather than the number!).

 

The absence of something isn't going to make people remember, the presence of something might.

[DS27]

Does seem PR driven, but all things considered, I generally don't think they should be retiring numbers.

 

I could just about understand it if the number was hugely significant to a driver that had been around for many years (Mansell and No.5 comes to mind). This isn't to say that one life is worth any less than another, but I for one couldn't even have told you Jules race number, and I suspect i'm not alone in that.

[Henri Greuter]

I think it's because prior to 1994 it was just accepted that drivers would die driving. The sport reached a point where it was conceivable that Senna would be the final death in F1 due to placing safety as priority #1. Of course, the lax standards of both drivers and stewarding under yellows was the weak link.

 

I think it's perfectly acceptable that Senna was the 'line in the sand' and every death after him can be considered of a different era where (to corrupt the overused phrase) 'sex was dangerous and racing was safe'. The sport sure entered a different era with the changes immediately after his accident and I think it's ok the number situation reflects that.

 

I don't know if it is the right plasce to post it here but I don't know where else I can post it.

 

You talk about Senna being "the line in the sand" and as if racing was safe ever since. Well, since Senna I have seen a number of accidents and incidents that could so easily have been fatal and nothing but a sheer miracle that it came off as well as it did.

Some of those incidents were related with the developments of the cars as they became ever since. Meanwhile we saw an ever more forceful kind of driving and defence of positions, Aggression in driving has increased over the years, primarily courtesy a certain Brazilian driver who got away with it and was not kept back and called to order by FIA

 

In one thread, in which tributes to Jules can be posted I read all kind of comments how shocked people are because of a fatality. Make no  mistake, I am just as shocked as many, the more while it was such a needless `sacrifice`.

But it truly amazes me how people react now we finally saw a fatality within F1 while at the same time the increased dangers because of the current speeds and drive styles of some drivers and employed tactics are taken as accepted and part of the game since `him` and his successors he inspired.

I can't help it but it feels so double to me if I read people complain about the current cars being too slow and too easy to drive and wanna see more danger and so on while at the same time you read how people feel about a fatality.

THIS FEELING IS NOT A DISREGARD OR DISREPECT FOR JULES!!!!

But: Still a demand for introducing yet more dangers?

There is something strange with the things I read and I can't `put` it right.

I don't understand it.

 

Henri

[mclarensmps]

Henri, I see where you are coming from, and no doubt you have a point in that Jules lost control of the car in bad conditions, thus, sending him off track and resulting in the crash that eventually proved to be fatal.

 

However, if people feel that the cars are too easy to drive and too slow, but are also shocked at Jules' death; that doesn't mean they are being contradictory or hypocrites. 

 

Just because people ask for these two things, doesn't mean they have to be connected. There are so many other points to take into account:

 

1. F1 testing is becoming more and more limited, therefore, drivers spend less time on track and in the car. I consider this very different from spending time in a simulator

2. The cars are, in fact, slower, and there was a period where F1 cars were faster and more difficult to drive than they are now, where we had no fatalities (remember Kubica's accident?)

3. Bianchi's accident had a bunch of factors involved in it that made it more of an exceptional case than normal. The organizers handling of the yellow flags, the equipment at the scene, etc

4. The cars currently have less downforce than they did before (when the cars were faster), thus making them trickier to drive in wet conditions (which may sound contradictory to the cars being "easy to drive", but what I mean to imply is that the cars can be easier to drive than they used to be, but at the same time be more unpredictable than they used to be).

 

I don't think this is the correct thread to be posting these thoughts in, so if a mod would like to move them, I understand why. 

[FerrariV12]

If somebody doesn't know about/remember Bianchi, then the absence of the 17 for other drivers to use isn't going to spread the knowledge.  (unless we are constantly reminded that 17 isn't available, in which case we could just as easily be reminded that we'd lost the man rather than the number!).

 

The absence of something isn't going to make people remember, the presence of something might.

 

I've bitten my lip on this thread so far as my disdain for the new numbering system in general which I don't really want to bitch about when a man has just died, but I agree with this point.

 

Example: When I first started watching, I'd hear Murray Walker and others talking about Jean Alesi "carrying the number 27 of the late great Gilles Villeneuve" or words to that effect. Which of course made 9/10 year old me go "who's Gilles Villeneuve?" (he died a year before I was born) and subsequently went to look him up and find out more about him.

 

Obviously chances are as I built up my knowledge of the sport I'd have found out about him eventually anyway, but it definitely didn't hurt.

Edited by FerrariV12, 21 July 2015 - 21:19.

[Henri Greuter]

Henri, I see where you are coming from, and no doubt you have a point in that Jules lost control of the car in bad conditions, thus, sending him off track and resulting in the crash that eventually proved to be fatal.

 

However, if people feel that the cars are too easy to drive and too slow, but are also shocked at Jules' death; that doesn't mean they are being contradictory or hypocrites. 

 

Just because people ask for these two things, doesn't mean they have to be connected. There are so many other points to take into account:

 

1. F1 testing is becoming more and more limited, therefore, drivers spend less time on track and in the car. I consider this very different from spending time in a simulator

2. The cars are, in fact, slower, and there was a period where F1 cars were faster and more difficult to drive than they are now, where we had no fatalities (remember Kubica's accident?)

3. Bianchi's accident had a bunch of factors involved in it that made it more of an exceptional case than normal. The organizers handling of the yellow flags, the equipment at the scene, etc

4. The cars currently have less downforce than they did before (when the cars were faster), thus making them trickier to drive in wet conditions (which may sound contradictory to the cars being "easy to drive", but what I mean to imply is that the cars can be easier to drive than they used to be, but at the same time be more unpredictable than they used to be).

 

I don't think this is the correct thread to be posting these thoughts in, so if a mod would like to move them, I understand why. 

 

I entirely agree with you if moderators should interfere within our discussion.

 

BTW, what angers me the most about Jules death is that it was not necessary. Even if driver error can be proven to be part of the cause, if safety first instead of commercial interests (TV slots, and providing the attendants with a show...) had prevailed, things could have been so different. You read about fans complaining about drivers not permitted to race in the rain but I think that by now it is proven why a line needs to be drawn. If drivers don't fail, something else or someone else might do so at the expence of...

 

I never ever expected Senna to be the last driver to die in F1. Too many other drivers died in racing ever since and it was simply a matter of time that F1 was to be struck by a fatality again. That it went well for so long is much more luck that most will acknowledge. That the lucky string brocke the manner it did is still beyond me and should never have been possible.

 

I also agree with you that maybe in the past cars were faster and more difficult to drive yet still no fatality. But I definitely remember Kubica, and Felipe if we talk about the freak moment that occurred and could have been lethal.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see the reactions of fans been shocked about seeing what it did to their favorites to carry one of them to his final resting place. Maybe that will make more people think twice about what is needed to let the still alive favorites go through for our entertainment.

And what can be the result of it.

Maybe something to think about before asking for more danger and faster cars etc to spice up the show.

What we're looking ar right now in recent years is no racing to me anymore but only a show and a bad one too...

 

Henri

[Jimisgod]

I can't accept arguments that it will take anything away from F1 if we start retiring numbers now. If fatal accidents happen at the same rate post 1994 then we will retire 3-4 more numbers this century, leaving 90+ others and certainly enough for any grid. Civilization will collapse before lack of numbers becomes any issue.

 

Almost 1/3 of F1 history has passed without a fatal accident and fans (and drivers) have been born and grown up without knowing the sadness of losing one of their heroes. This is the first death of the internet age where people willingly spend weeks of their lives arguing over slight differences between drivers - to start complaining about the death of a driver taking away a number is like black comedy. The tokenism argument holds more water, but I don't think more can be done than the current VSC rules.

[YoungGun]

Then number's should also be retired in recognition of accomplishments as in other sports.