86 replies to this topic

[Donkey]

Button's relatively 'low' salary is surprising. I was expecting a WDC to carry a hefty weight, but he's much less than his peers.

 

RBR has got some bargains!

Button nearly didn't have a seat this year, he is on about half what he was getting last year to accommodate pricey Alonso.

 

RBR pay their drivers huge race performance bonuses compared to the other teams, albeit on top of a 'low' base salary. Vettel earnt about $25-30m in his last championship winning year I believe.

[chrisPB15]

They don't have an income source that would cover Alonso's salary without significantly impacting the team budget.

RBR and STR's salary costs put the red bull drivers project into perspective. One year of paying Riccardo's salary instead of Alonso's and it's more than paid for itself.

 

 

Their deal with Honda is a good one and a form of budget improvement. You're almost suggesting it's worthless.

I notice the coverage McLaren/Honda have got by going with the stature of Alonso's name, is being overlooked by the same people who also agree F1 is mainly about the money.

Edited by chrisPB15, 22 July 2015 - 12:59.

[chrisPB15]

Button nearly didn't have a seat this year, he is on about half what he was getting last year to accommodate pricey Alonso.

 

RBR pay their drivers huge race performance bonuses compared to the other teams, albeit on top of a 'low' base salary. Vettel earnt about $25-30m in his last championship winning year I believe.

 

 

Alonso is not 'pricey', he is  a bargain as is Lewis Hamilton. These drivers add significantly to a team's fanbase and the overall team's value and sponsor's exposure draw of the $$$.  Why do you think teams like Real Madrid and Manchester Utd are valued so highly? More so than the actual champions Barcelona and Chelsea.

 

I hate the way sports 'franchises' are valued, but money makes the world go around, not least in F1.

 

http://www.jamesalle...or-tv-exposure/

 

 

It was said Mercedes exposure last season was worth in the billions of dollars. There may be 1/10th of a second performance difference between the bulk of the drivers, but who's going to sell the most road cars? The cheap newbie or the 'pricey' multiple world champions with the biggest fanbases? Honda have more coverage now than when they had their own team.

Edited by chrisPB15, 22 July 2015 - 12:58.

[Talisman]

Their deal with Honda is a good one and a form of budget improvement. You're almost suggesting it's worthless. The coverage McLaren/Honda get by going with the stature of Alonso's name is being overlooked by the same people who also agree F1 is mainly about the money.

You didn't read the post I was replying to.

McLaren on its own does not have an income source that covers alonso's salary and good chassis development. Hence why having Honda pay a portion of his salary is necessary.

In response to another of your posts I would like to see the valuation that puts Real Madrid above Barcelona, what is your source?

[Donkey]

Alonso is not 'pricey', he is  a bargain as is Lewis Hamilton. These drivers add significantly to a team's fanbase and the overall team's value and sponsor's exposure draw of the $$$.  Why do you think teams like Real Madrid and Manchester Utd are valued so highly? More so than the actual champions Barcelona and Chelsea.

 

I hate the way sports 'franchises' are valued, but money makes the world go around, not least in F1.

 

http://www.jamesalle...or-tv-exposure/

 

 

It was said Mercedes exposure last season was worth in the billions of dollars. There may be 1/10th of a second performance difference between the bulk of the drivers, but who's going to sell the most road cars? The cheap newbie or the 'pricey' multiple world champions with the biggest fanbases? Honda have more coverage now than when they had their own team.

For all the wrong reasons one might argue.....unless you believe that all PR is good PR like Ryanair.

[chrisPB15]

You didn't read the post I was replying to.

McLaren on its own does not have an income source that covers alonso's salary and good chassis development. Hence why having Honda pay a portion of his salary is necessary.

In response to another of your posts I would like to see the valuation that puts Real Madrid above Barcelona, what is your source?

 

What about the works engine deal and partnership? is that worth less than the extra money they need to find to pay Alonso at the end of every month? How do you know one of McLaren's partners aren't borrowing the money to pay Alonso? on the basis they now have a massive partner?

after all, if they reach their target, then the team's increase in value will be worth a lot more than Alonso's salary.

 

The post you replied to suggested McLaren weren't a poor company, their budget in 2013 was said to be around £160m behind Ferrari and Red Bull (source Autosport)

Martin Whitmarsh wanted Alonso several years ago and I'm sure knew how they would pay him. At the end of the day it's about financial planning and getting people on board (plus a certain amount of bulls###)  Ferrari are probably the only team paying drivers out of the actual business.

If Williams are in debt, who are paying their drivers? If they get new sponsors, perhaps from Brazil, does Massa become a 'pay driver' for that sponsor?

 

As for Real Madrid's value. I'm a lifelong football fan and whenever I've paid attention to 'Club rich lists',  Real Madrid have always been at the top.    As for a source, well this was top of a googgle search just now http://www.totalspor...football-clubs/

 

(Forbes)

Edited by chrisPB15, 22 July 2015 - 13:45.

[chrisPB15]

For all the wrong reasons one might argue.....unless you believe that all PR is good PR like Ryanair.

 

 

When you have the Narcissist media looking for and creating trouble in F1 (think of the BBC's Andrew Benson claiming Alonso-McLaren relationship was broken before the season started, over the facts of the testing crash)  then unfortunately for Honda and McLaren, no not all PR is not good PR.

 

Maybe now theyre being watched for the wrong reasons.. But the cameras were swarming around them from the very first time the car fired up. I don't remember there being the same mad rush and expectation surrounding  their previous effort. For a back of the grid team alongside Manor they're certainly getting good exposure. A lot of that to do with the drivers 'stature' in the series.

Edited by chrisPB15, 22 July 2015 - 13:38.

[Talisman]

What about the works engine deal and partnership? is that worth less than the extra money they need to find to pay Alonso at the end of every month? How do you know one of McLaren's partners aren't borrowing the money to pay Alonso? on the basis they now have a massive partner?
after all, if they reach their target, then the team's increase in value will be worth a lot more than Alonso's salary.

Martin Whitmarsh wanted Alonso several years ago and I'm sure knew how they would pay him. At the end of the day it's about financial planning and Ferrari are probably the only team paying drivers out of the actual business.

As for Real Madrid's value. I'm a lifelong football fan and whenever I've paid attention to 'Club rich lists' Real Madrid have always been at the top. As for a source, well this was top of a googgle search just now http://www.totalspor...football-clubs/

(Forbes)

Free engines saves money. It isn't an income source. And yes a customer merc engine deal is cheaper than alonso's supposed salary. Look at the mclaren and tell me which sponsor pays mclaren anything like alonso's salary please?

What do you mean by partner? If you mean Honda, that is precisely what I'm suggesting. If you mean Dennis or the Bahrainis then your logic doesn't work out. The team won't increase in value by alonso's salary.

[chunder27]

Driver salaries will always cause controversy, but they are simply a figure, and not the end story.

 

I am fairly sure Lewis is earnign a darned sight more than he is through various endorsements, as is Alonso or Jenson.

 

It is clear Red Bll have a different policy, but even with that Daniel shoud be on a considerably higher basic retainer in my view, he was dominat over theri own little baby boy last year and should have been rewarded with a considerable salary hike as a result, but I guess the contract is just that, watertight and signed years ago no doubt, I just hope he did get some serious bonuses for his wins!

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Lewis is way underpaid. He should be on par with Alonso.

 

[MikeV1987]

Lewis is way underpaid. 

 

really?

 

[Marklar]

I think your avatar would suit perfectly to this quote

Lewis is way underpaid.

[Charterhall]

Lewis Hamilton has a list of flaws as long as your arm.  He is however winning Championships at the moment.  Alonso isn't, and hasn't for a long time.

 

Perhaps if he wasn't so consistently financially rewarded for failing he'd have done better?

[Marklar]

Lewis Hamilton has a list of flaws as long as your arm.  He is however winning Championships at the moment.  Alonso isn't, and hasn't for a long time.
 
Perhaps if he wasn't so consistently financially rewarded for failing he'd have done better?

This thread is starting to get offtopic, but how have Alonso failed the past years? He destroyed his teammates, what else should he do? You need the fastest (or at least almost) car to win the championship, thats a fact. Or has Lewis also failed until last year?

[Charterhall]

This thread is starting to get offtopic, but how have Alonso failed the past years? He destroyed his teammates, what else should he do? You need the fastest (or at least almost) car to win the championship, thats a fact. Or has Lewis also failed until last year?

 

It entirely depends on how you define success.

 

Let me ask you this.

 

Should the best paid driver on the grid have not won a world title in nearly a decade?  Perhaps if we strip away hyperbole and look at the facts he may be considered a little overpaid?

 

Michael Schumacher wasn't perfect in terms of his conduct, God knows, but few would argue his central role in providing Ferrari with success.  His rewards were, by comparison to those of his peers, less than Alonso's.  He was however a far, far, far more effective leader and as such won alot more.

 

The excuse that Alonso has been let down by those around him (which is mainly propagated by Alonso himself whenever he gives one of those "It's not me, it's you" interviews) only goes so far.  He's been backed by the richest team in the sport for the last few years (of course he has, who else could afford his salary), and he's failed to deliver.

 

Let's look at the past 5 years of F1 competition in isolation.  If you were going to hand out salaries on that basis, who would you be giving the money to?  I wouldn't be bankrolling Alonso on the grounds that he won two titles nearly a decade a go, and since then has ended up having a go at everyone he's worked with.  Would you?

Edited by Charterhall, 22 July 2015 - 16:06.

[Marklar]

It entirely depends on how you define success.
 
Let me ask you this.
 
Should the best paid driver on the grid have not won a world title in nearly a decade?  Perhaps if we strip away hyperbole and look at the facts he may be considered a little overpaid?
 
Michael Schumacher wasn't perfect in terms of his conduct, God knows, but few would argue his central role in providing Ferrari with success.  His rewards were, by comparison to those of his peers, less than Alonso's.  He was however a far, far, far more effective leader and as such won alot more.
 
The excuse that Alonso has been let down by those around him (which is mainly propagated by Alonso himself whenever he gives one of those "It's not me, it's you" interviews) only goes so far.  He's been backed by the richest team in the sport for the last few years (of course he has, who else could afford his salary), and he's failed to deliver.
 
Let's look at the past 5 years of F1 competition in isolation.  If you were going to hand out salaries on that basis, who would you be giving the money to?  I wouldn't be bankrolling Alonso on the grounds that he won two titles nearly a decade a go, and since then has ended up having a go at everyone he's worked with.  Would you?

I would give Alonso the highest salary because in my opinion he was the best driver in the past 5 years. Due to his age and lower marketability atleast towards Hamilton I could understand if he would get slightly less money than Seb or Hamilton.

[Charterhall]

I would give Alonso the highest salary because in my opinion he was the best driver in the past 5 years.

 

I wouldn't as he's been shown to be ineffective at winning titles (which I assume is what I'm ultimately paying him to do) and a destabilizing influence. 

[Marklar]

I wouldn't as he's been shown to be ineffective at winning titles (which I assume is what I'm ultimately paying him to do) and a destabilizing influence.

Are you suggesting that a driver is responsible for the development of an fast car?

How was Schumacher the highest paid driver in the late 90s with beeing 5 years without a title?

[kevinracefan]

Ferrari really have rocks in their to be paying kimi that much considering his performance levels since 2008. Kimi has the best manager of all time. He needed Ferrari a lot more than they needed him when he left under funded Lotus, he should have been put on a minimum performance based retainer.

uhhh... rocks in their what?? did you watch any races in 2012 / 2013?? do you think that P O S Lotus was a fast car???

[P123]

Lewis Hamilton has a list of flaws as long as your arm.  He is however winning Championships at the moment.  Alonso isn't, and hasn't for a long time.
 
Perhaps if he wasn't so consistently financially rewarded for failing he'd have done better?

I'm sure you mean Hamilton has a list of achievements as long as your arm. If he's that flawed..... well, have a think about it yourself.

As for Alonso, maybe you could fault him for 2010, but I've never got the impression, or seen it suggested elsewhere, that he's sitting back resting on his big fat pay check. He's not be the part of the equation that has failed to deliver over the past few years at Ferrari, or McLaren.

[sennafan24]

 

Michael Schumacher wasn't perfect in terms of his conduct, God knows, but few would argue his central role in providing Ferrari with success.  His rewards were, by comparison to those of his peers, less than Alonso's.  He was however a far, far, far more effective leader and as such won alot more.

 

The excuse that Alonso has been let down by those around him (which is mainly propagated by Alonso himself whenever he gives one of those "It's not me, it's you" interviews) only goes so far.  He's been backed by the richest team in the sport for the last few years (of course he has, who else could afford his salary), and he's failed to deliver.

 

Let's look at the past 5 years of F1 competition in isolation.  If you were going to hand out salaries on that basis, who would you be giving the money to? 

Ask yourself this. Did Alonso have Brawn, Todt and an entire tyre company to work with? It's different situations isn't it?. While Schumi was indeed a great team leader, so was Alonso. Just ask Rob Smedley, who has no reason to defend Alonso. 

 

Alonso really didn't fail deliver at Ferrari, Without Alonso, it is probable that Ferrari would have been lower in the constructors standings. Check the points ratio between Alonso and Kimi/Massa. Also, consider that Alonso took the Championship to the last race in 2010 and 2012 against a superior car. 

 

Alonso's main problem is that he makes silly business decisions. 

[sennafan24]

Lewis Hamilton has a list of flaws as long as your arm.  He is however winning Championships at the moment.  Alonso isn't, and hasn't for a long time.

Thanks to a business decision by Lewis, and one that was a massive gamble.

 

If I was in charge of an F1 team, and could sign any driver to get optimum performance out of my cars, Alonso would be my 1st or 2nd choice. The only downside is his age. Since 2007, Alonso has rarely done much to disrupt his team.  Even when he has said or done something questionable, it has been no worse than what other top drivers have said or done. 

Edited by sennafan24, 22 July 2015 - 16:37.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Thanks to a business decision by Lewis, and one that was a massive gamble.

 

 

IMO it wasn't much of a gamble.

 

The previous year the Mercedes Board of Directors decided they were going to invest a lot more resources and were tired of waiting. Haug and Brawn went, and considering that the 2014 car would rely on energy recovery systems a lot more, it was a no-brainer to see that the company that stood head and shoulders above the rest in KERS was going to be on top.

[Marklar]

IMO it wasn't much of a gamble.
 
The previous year the Mercedes Board of Directors decided they were going to invest a lot more resources and were tired of waiting. Haug and Brawn went, and considering that the 2014 car would rely on energy recovery systems a lot more, it was a no-brainer to see that the company that stood head and shoulders above the rest in KERS was going to be on top.

Funny thing is that nobody said that back in 2012...

[sennafan24]

IMO it wasn't much of a gamble.

 

The previous year the Mercedes Board of Directors decided they were going to invest a lot more resources and were tired of waiting. Haug and Brawn went, and considering that the 2014 car would rely on energy recovery systems a lot more, it was a no-brainer to see that the company that stood head and shoulders above the rest in KERS was going to be on top.

That makes perfect sense in retrospect. But at the time, people were very cynical. Remember the J.V comparisons?  It wasn't like drivers were competing for the Mercedes seat either. Unlike the Red Bull seat, drivers were not actively seeking employment with Mercedes. 

[Marklar]

That makes perfect sense in retrospect. But at the time, people were very cynical. Remember the J.V comparisons?  It wasn't like drivers were competing for the Mercedes seat either. Unlike the Red Bull seat, drivers were not actively seeking employment with Mercedes.

http://www.skysports...s/22058/9538348

Read and enjoy

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Funny thing is that nobody said that back in 2012...

I did. The moment his move was announced, I predicted with good accuracy why the move and what was going to happen. The only thing I missed was that I underestimated the Mercedes success in 2014.

 

Sometimes fans are so emotionally invested in a personality they do not recognize the business aspect of why things happen.

[Marklar]

I did. The moment his move was announced, I predicted with good accuracy why the move and what was going to happen. The only thing I missed was that I underestimated the Mercedes success in 2014.

 

Sometimes fans are so emotionally invested in a personality they do not recognize the business aspect of why things happen

I also said that his move could went very well, because Merc have invested much more time into the development of the V6 engines which was also the reason why they returned with an own works team. on the other side I knew that Alonsos move will completely fail because I heard from someone who was asked to take part in the Honda F1 project and refused after seeing their development (must have been last summer). So I think that Alonsos move was more a gamble. Even knewing that Merc have invested much money it was stil a big possibility that McLaren is stil making the better chassis (like they did for lots years) and winning the championship with the same engine, so it was also a gamble in my opinion.

 

The journos and pundits were completely wrong of course and thats what I meant.

[paulrobs]

I always squirm a bit when I see salaries quoted like this. I always feel a bit embarrassed when I hear of the sort of salaries the drivers get. Same applies to other sports too. £2M for winning Winbeledon. Golf career earning in the hundreds of millions of dollars. I understand market forces. I just always feel like they just don't need to be that big. In this day and age I'll be honest and say that it feels a little bit obscene to me. Big disparity in salaries though. Then again, you have the proven winners and the ones who might become proven winners but waren't yet. Agree that any list of salaries is probably not factual anyway given the many different ways in which salaries will be made up and also paid.

[riya21]

Driving is amazing job.. It is full of fun and adventurer..

I like driving..

But never get chace on high level.

Their salaries are also very good.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

 

The journos and pundits were completely wrong of course and thats what I meant.

 

A bit OT, but that brings to question the pundit's jobs. To be accurate or to draw in more viewers or web site visits? We all know the term "clickbait", and that is what pays their bills. A logical explanation devoid of emotion draws in a lot less clicks than one marinating in emotion, drama, fashion speculation, and team-mate comparisons. And of course, some of those pundits know more about fashion and generating emotions than the business of racing.

[Marklar]

A bit OT, but that brings to question the pundit's jobs. To be accurate or to draw in more viewers or web site visits? We all know the term "clickbait", and that is what pays their bills. A logical explanation devoid of emotion draws in a lot less clicks than one marinating in emotion, drama, fashion speculation, and team-mate comparisons. And of course, some of those pundits know more about fashion and generating emotions than the business of racing.

Yeah, thats indeed a problem and I dont know if they are really not aware of this facts or if they doing that on porpose: I mean in this example you will have more clicks and views if you're slagging Hamilton and not praising his decision. Especially for the tabloids. And some pundits at least said it could turn out well, but not more. Its a bit dissapointing.

[Fatgadget]

Are you suggesting that a driver is responsible for the development of an fast car?

How was Schumacher the highest paid driver in the late 90s with beeing 5 years without a title?

Dont forget the 6 tenths!

[Strontiumdog]

http://www.skysports...s/22058/9538348

Read and enjoy

 

These are my favorites from that article,  absolute Gems 

 

“I don’t see Lewis winning races in 2013 – and there has to be doubts that the car will be good enough in 2014. And it is easy for a lean couple of years to develop into something longer. Just look what happened to Jacques Villeneuve after he joined BAR having won the title in 1997. He never won another race. Lewis has got a tough task ahead of him at Mercedes. It is a gamble” – Allan McNish, Audi.

 

“Lewis Hamilton does not know much about racing history and so cannot learn from the mistakes of others. Perhaps he thinks that if it fails he will at least have the consolation of earning loads more money and being a bigger star, thanks to his hustling management that will sell his image here, there and everywhere. That might make him an international celebrity on a bigger scale than he is, but it will not make him a racing legend. Perhaps Mercedes will pull it off and then Hamilton will look clever, but I fear that this will be a move similar to James Hunt joining Wolf; Emerson Fittipaldi joining Fittipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve moving to BAR or Niki Lauda’s ill-fated move to Brabham. History relates that you do not leave a winning team in F1 unless it is to go to another proven winner…” -  Joe Saward, GP+ e-magazine.

 

Edited by Strontiumdog, 23 July 2015 - 11:24.

[Marklar]

These are my favorites from that article,  absolute Gems

Also mine. Especially Saward nailed it

Could it be possible that we are slightly OT now?

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Could it be possible that we are slightly OT now?

 

Slightly, but these days a driver's salary is tied to market value. While Rosberg looks like he's posing for the cover of GQ, Hamilton is doing his thang, and that contrast masks what is a basically boring package from Mercedes. Show up, dominate, repeat. Fans don't go to Kanye West's concerts to listen to his dulcet baritone, he has to add something to the show.

[chunder27]

Judging by Glastonbury, why anyone would pay to watch that cretin is beyond me.