113 replies to this topic

[Tsarwash]

After the news of Bianchi's sad death, and the repeated calls for canopies, closed cockpits or some kind of cages, I though it might be pertinent to collect as much information of incidents where objects struck a drivers helmet with force or very near misses which would likely have had terrible consequences. Note, this ins't any argument for or against canopies and such, just collecting information, to see in my mind if they are common occurrences or not that likely. 

 

Massa and Henry Surtees are the two cases that come to mind immediately, along with Alonso's two near misses with Kimi and Lewis which could have had horrible outcomes. 

[Marklar]

Chilton in Silverstone last year almost by a tyre.

And in Silverstone 2013 I think Alonso again was almost hitten by parts of an destroyed tyre of Perez if I remember correctly.

[RedBaron]

Schumacher Abu Dhabi wasn't close close, but it was close.

 

Where Sutil's car came to a rest doesn't show how close it was.

 

Edited by RedBaron, 21 July 2015 - 18:07.

[Marklar]

Schumacher Abu Dhabi wasn't close close, but it was close.
 
Where Sutil's car came to a rest doesn't show how close it was.
 

That was Liuzzi

[ANF]

This could be a long thread.

 

[Jackmancer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and obviously:

Edited by Jackmancer, 21 July 2015 - 18:30.

[Risil]

James Hinchcliffe was knocked out by a detached piece of non-aero-kit bodywork on the opening lap of the Indy Grand Prix of 2014. It's really not his track.

Edited by Risil, 21 July 2015 - 18:35.

[SR388]

I think research needs to continue. It's too frequent to overlook.


"We've always had open cockpits" isn't a compelling argument against some sort of canopy or protection.

[scheivlak]

And in Silverstone 2013 I think Alonso again was almost hitten by parts of an destroyed tyre of Perez if I remember correctly.

What I remember from that race is how Kimi Raikkonen barely escaped a chunk of Vergne's tyre.

[JHSingo]

I don't know, the talk of canopies still leaves me with a lot of concerns.

 

Until someone comes up with a system that is, for want of a better word, fool proof, I'll always have these concerns. Concerns about drivers being trapped in their car. Think of Simona de Silvestro's fire in IndyCar a few years ago. A driver being trapped in a car that's on fire is really no more favourable than being hit in the head by debris, I'd say.

 

And would it have even helped in Bianchi's situation? Would it make the job of extracting an injured driver even harder if the canopy was crushed down, or whatever? In the case of flying debris, would a canopy increase the risk of the debris being deflected into the area of marshals/spectators?

 

It's not an easy one to solve. Closed cockpits may solve one thing, but create more problems in another area. I trust that those in charge of making any decision will have evaluated all of these scenarios. The last thing I'd like to see is a knee-jerk reaction that hasn't been completely thought through.

Edited by JHSingo, 21 July 2015 - 18:58.

[ANF]

What I remember from that race is how Kimi Raikkonen barely escaped a chunk of Vergne's tyre.

Here it is. Looks like some pieces (of metal?) bounced off his helmet.

[Marklar]

What I remember from that race is how Kimi Raikkonen barely escaped a chunk of Vergne's tyre.

That also happened in that race. But I meant that

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=oBKCx51fm50

At 1:25

[DS27]

Maybe a thread on cycling near misses to head injurys, such as Geraint Thomas hitting a lamp post in the Tour De France yesterday woud lead us to fit stabilizers and crash protecton to bikes.

[SR388]

Maybe a thread on cycling near misses to head injurys, such as Geraint Thomas hitting a lamp post in the Tour De France yesterday woud lead us to fit stabilizers and crash protecton to bikes.

So your argument is, "something isn't safe, so we shouldn't bother trying to make it safer". You are a stone in the cogs of progress.

[mmmcurry]

Didn't Button have a bird hit the airbox in testing once?

[superden]

Cristiano da Matta hit a deer at Road America.

Edited by superden, 21 July 2015 - 19:52.

[Marklar]

Didn't Button have a bird hit the airbox in testing once?

I remember Rosberg was hit by a bird in Bahrain 2012

Edited by Marklar, 21 July 2015 - 19:55.

[wingwalker]

Didn't hit anyone, thankfully, but what was the reasoning behind not black flagging Kimi when his exhaust was flapping in the wind until it eventually detached itself from the car is still beyond me.


 

Edited by wingwalker, 21 July 2015 - 20:02.

[katmen]

definitely alonso is very lucky.....

[Graveltrappen]

Very close to the head being ripped off

[Ruusperi]

I think in general it's pretty useless to count near misses. We all know that every time the cars are racing wheel-to-wheel they may suddenly collide that results in either car climbing over the other one. Should we also count those collisions that didn't involve getting airborne just because that could have happened? Should we also count every occasion of wheel-to-wheel racing that could have ended up a serious accident, but didn't?

 

My point is: The fact that worst case scenario could have easily happened doesn't mean it was likely to happen. By cherry picking one-in-a-million bad examples we ignore the happy 999999 instances. In rallying, should we count those millions of "near misses" in which a slight driver error could have sent the car towards a bunch a spectators? Just because we can imagine accidents happening doesn't make them a realistic threat. I'm not against better safety, but making mountains out of molehills is useless.

Edited by Ruusperi, 21 July 2015 - 20:11.

[DutchQuicksilver]

So basically all these images being posted are a summary of the last 10-15 years in racing, which means it's just part of racing. No reason for a closed cockpit, cage or canopie or anything like that. If any, it could be even more dangerous.

[jimjimjeroo]

Seems everyone has forgotten



Ignore my stupidity lol

Edited by jimjimjeroo, 21 July 2015 - 20:31.

[superden]

Ayrton Senna.

[ANF]

So basically all these images being posted are a summary of the last 10-15 years in racing, which means it's just part of racing. No reason for a closed cockpit, cage or canopie or anything like that. If any, it could be even more dangerous.

Should drivers still be allowed to wear helmets though?

[TomNokoe]

I shan't post those Echoes of a yada yada photographs that we've all seen in our bloody sleep, but that was the first time I had seen canopies in a light that didn't inhibit the ideology behind Formula 1 and still having the drivers head and helmet in full view

[Bleu]

Didn't hit anyone, thankfully, but what was the reasoning behind not black flagging Kimi when his exhaust was flapping in the wind until it eventually detached itself from the car is still beyond me.


 

You mean black and orange flag (come to the pits and fix the problem instantly) rather than disqualification from the race?

 

 

Sergio Perez's car was hit by some debris which cut out all the electrics in Malaysian Grand Prix 2011.

[YoungGun]

[byrkus]

Helmut Marko in 1972...

 

 

A stone flung from a car in front, and pierced his visor - and also his eye. He's blind on one eye since then...

 

[scheivlak]

That also happened in that race. But I meant that

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=oBKCx51fm50

At 1:25

That was nothing special.

[Imateria]

Care to explain how that is remotely a near miss for a head injury?

 

This thread is filled with nothing but pointless hand wringing, those who actually need the data almost certainly have it already. I'm with JHSingo, extra head protection will be great but if an when a solution can be found it should do one of two things:

 

1) Not cause problems in other area's, most notably driver extraction (either under their own power or more importantly when in need of medical assistance).

 

2) Not turn the cars into LMP1's, because then whats the point in having F1 and WEC separate?

[Risil]

This thread is filled with nothing but pointless hand wringing

 

Nah, many of the posts are just from helpful people trying to answer the OP's question.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Should drivers still be allowed to wear helmets though?

Helmets have been part of racing, so yes.

[scheivlak]

Ayrton Senna.

Yes, he was pretty dangerous at times.

[Tsarwash]

So basically all these images being posted are a summary of the last 10-15 years in racing, which means it's just part of racing. No reason for a closed cockpit, cage or canopie or anything like that. If any, it could be even more dangerous.

 

Maybe a thread on cycling near misses to head injurys, such as Geraint Thomas hitting a lamp post in the Tour De France yesterday woud lead us to fit stabilizers and crash protecton to bikes.

 

I think research needs to continue. It's too frequent to overlook.


"We've always had open cockpits" isn't a compelling argument against some sort of canopy or protection.

Thanks for all of the replies. As I said, I didn't want this to be the place to go over the same arguments again and again, DNA of the sport, etc..  This is the most recent thread where that discussion was most recently happening. http://forums.autosp...n-cockpit-cars/

 

Maybe we can talk about whether canopies or cages are actually viable ? Would any protection stop both the Massa accident AND the Surtees accident ? And again, how often do those two types of incident happen ? I'm more concerned about whole cars travelling across other cars.

Again, I'm not pro or anti the things people have been talking about, but the way that F1 operates in a knee jerk fashion, if something serious does happen to Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton, then they'll likely instantly regulate something preposterous. 

[PlatenGlass]

Very close to the head being ripped off

And at the start of the same race:

[PlatenGlass]

And to go with his already-mentioned crash at Brazil in 1994, Brundle also had Monaco 1986:

[PlatenGlass]

A driver being trapped in a car that's on fire is really no more favourable than being hit in the head by debris, I'd say.

Potentially dangerous fires in F1 are much rarer than potentially dangerous head injuries from an open cockpit. Mark Webber's fire at Korea is probably the closest thing we've had to a dangerous fire since Berger's accident at San Marino in 1989.

[YoungGun]

Care to explain how that is remotely a near miss for a head injury?

 

This thread is filled with nothing but pointless hand wringing, those who actually need the data almost certainly have it already. I'm with JHSingo, extra head protection will be great but if an when a solution can be found it should do one of two things:

 

1) Not cause problems in other area's, most notably driver extraction (either under their own power or more importantly when in need of medical assistance).

 

2) Not turn the cars into LMP1's, because then whats the point in having F1 and WEC separate?

 

My bad, apologies ... 

 

I see what you mean what was meant was this

 

Object striking or nearly missing drivers heads.

 

I had understood near misses to mean near misses hence my video post.

[PlatenGlass]

[Fisico54]

Can we have photos of all the WEC and touring car rolls, injuries and deaths too? Proof they should be open topped

[Myrvold]

 

This one is quite remarkable, as Brundle was hit pretty hard on the head!

[Knot]

A ballistic polycarbonate windscreen supported by a cfrp hoop would give virtually all of the safety benefits of a canopy without any of its drawbacks. It also wouldn't ruin the looks of the cars.

[Myrvold]

Potentially dangerous fires in F1 are much rarer than potentially dangerous head injuries from an open cockpit. Mark Webber's fire at Korea is probably the closest thing we've had to a dangerous fire since Berger's accident at San Marino in 1989.

Enstone F1 team would like to disagree

[PlatenGlass]

OK, there was the Heidfeld fire with the explosion as well. But I'd still say these are much rarer, and it would take one of these fires coupled with a driver unable to extricate himself from the car as well, so I'd say much less likely than a head injury caused by an open cockpit.

[whitewaterMkII]

Jean Pierre Sarti was the first I remember, Monza '66 I believe.

To Summarize then; canopies would have mitigated/prevented:

da Matta

Massa

Surtees

Marko

Brundle

Senna

and all of those close calls posted.

I still think these are doable, and for those with fire phobias, these also have oxygen masks.

They have been used for years in Hydros, Drag boats and Dragsters.

We used F-16 canopies as the base. For those of you who may think they are not usable because of their fragility or think they may be penetrated. The second shot is of an F-16 canopy deforming/deflecting a 4 lb object at 550 knots. These canopies are more than adequate to have prevented the injuries listed so far.

 

[Knot]

The problem with flexible canopies is they launch things into the air. Not a bad thing at 20,000 feet; a really bad thing at a race track.

[warp]

I think the challenge of closed cockpits is that it brings on new problems.

 

I has to be easily opened for whatever reason. Potentially in life threatening situations.

It must be able to open from the outside as well as from inside.

It must not obstruct vision (already limited in current F1 cockpits)

Higher heat build up? Needing additional cooling solutions

How strong is strong? Only resist impacts from flying debris up to what point of energy? Does that mean the structure of the survival cell can change? Can it help to make the monocoque stronger? How heavier is that? Will the driver require mechanical assistance for open the cockpit?

 

It's an interesting engineering challenge. Not impossible, but I can see that implementation will be a tough one.

[ANF]

A case of an object not striking the head but landing on top of it:

 

No head injury, but Aleshin later told reporters that he couldn't breath, and here are the tyre marks on his helmet.

[whitewaterMkII]

I think the challenge of closed cockpits is that it brings on new problems.

 

I has to be easily opened for whatever reason. Potentially in life threatening situations.

It must be able to open from the outside as well as from inside.

It must not obstruct vision (already limited in current F1 cockpits)

Higher heat build up? Needing additional cooling solutions

How strong is strong? Only resist impacts from flying debris up to what point of energy? Does that mean the structure of the survival cell can change? Can it help to make the monocoque stronger? How heavier is that? Will the driver require mechanical assistance for open the cockpit?

 

It's an interesting engineering challenge. Not impossible, but I can see that implementation will be a tough one.

 

Opening: Driver has standard releases at aft, exterior has T handle pins in 3 locations for responders, rear and aft. All current boat capsules have these.

Obstructed vision. Mirrors can be integrated into the canopy rather easily and may even be more stable.

Heat buildup: Cool suits are available in NASCAR now, weight penalty, for sure, as well as fire suppression and breathing apparatus if deemed necessary.

Strength: These canopies at the speeds F1 run are virtually impenetrable. See above shot,all fighter jets have bird strike ratings that are very high.

Structurally the cell may change a bit for mounting, but also have some parts of the cell able to be integrated, such as the current 'horse collar' snap ins.

One thing for sure that will be hard to cope with is the additional weight and it's high COG placement.

I am fully confident that the best of the best in engineering, which F1 claims to be, could pull off some really clever things with this safety feature, especially in it's aero effects.

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 22 July 2015 - 00:34.