24 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

You would have to have very little interest in the history of F.1 not to know that Fangio's Maserati had a yellow band part of the way around the nose of his 250.F when he drove quite a good race at the 'Ring in 1957 and maybe a little more to know that the Ferrari team had coloured noses periodically through that year. But, I've been trying to find evidence of different colour noses on the factory Maseratis at other times during that season.

The recently-restored V.12 car has a blue nose but I'm not sure that is authentic and it never ran that often anyway.

So does anyone know if the Officine ever painted the 'front nose' (don't you just HATE that increasingly frequently used expression? Where else would the flipping nose of the car be?) of their cars in 1957?

[Ray Bell]

Like 'front headlights,' 'front windscreen,' 'rear tail lights' etc?

You are becoming so sensitive, Barry... or getting old?

Any colour pics in Automobile Year?

[Tim Murray]

There's a b & w photo in David McKinney's 250F book showing the four works 250Fs lined up at Monza in 1957. Three of the four have different-coloured nosebands. Those on #2 (Fangio) and #4 (Schell) are light in colour. #6 - the Behra V12 car - has a darker band which could well be blue. #8 (Scarlatti) has no noseband.

[2F-001]

I don't know if this is correct, or helpful, but there is a photo of a blue nose-banded car online, here:
https://www.flickr.c...@N00/4762753003

which is captioned as being the Behra V12 from Monza, which presumably is the same car as in the pic which Tim defenced (p92 of David's book). It is sporting the same 'No. 6' (although the positioning of the racing numbers is not quite in accordance with the '57 pic).

Is that the restored car you referred to Barry?

Edited by 2F-001, 22 July 2015 - 17:36.

[Robin Fairservice]

I looked through "Automobile Review" 1958 edition and it has some coloured photos taken through the 1957 season.  Behra is pictured driving #6, the V12 Maserati, at Monza.  I noted that in the early part of the 1957 season the cars pictured didn't have coloured noses, but from the British GP on they did.  Why?

[jj2728]

Formula One in Camera 1950 - 1959, page 175, shows the Maseratis lined up in the paddock at Monza. The number 4 car of Harry Schell has a white noseband.

[Barry Boor]

Yes, it is, Tony.

[Barry Boor]

Of course, I have David's book so I should have looked there first.

Interesting that Schell's car has the half band that Fangio's had at the Ring, while Fangio's car has a complete band. I would guess that Behra's band was blue and the light part of Schell's car looks lighter than Fangio's. So that would make Fangio's yellow and Schell's, I would guess, white.

Pure conjecture!

Still, thanks for reminding me Tim. There have to be coloured pictures from Monza somewhere, surely.

[Barry Boor]

Thanks, jj. I was typing my message when yours was posted. So, white it is!

[Alan Cox]

When the V12 was first restored and raced by Steve Griswold in 1988, it sported a dark blue nose, certainly darker than that now sported so one might assume that the various restorers will have had some reason to replicate that (although they appear to disagree on shade).

 

A point to note on the Nurburgring cars is that the paint appears to have been very crudely applied between practice and the race, as the Fangio car's yellow nose is applied without masking and looks as though it was painted using a distemper brush, and the left-hand end (when viewed from the front) isn't neatly squared off (in contrast to the meticulously-applied stripe the car now carries when it appears with Lukas Huni)

[Rob Ryder]

Barry
LAT Photo has some colour photos from 1957 Monza...

http://www.latphoto....d italy&per=100

Rob

[2F-001]

Well, that implies a 'half band' rather darker than that on the restored car.
Seems an odd thing to have 'got wrong' if it only had the one outing as a works car and when such evidence is in a well-known archive; of course an owner do what they like (though some may disagree…) but one assumes that is the historic format, if any, in which one would wish to preserve it.
The pic in the 'car-by-car' section of David's book shows it 'bandless' but that is presumably taken at some later point in its life.

[Garsted]

If you type 1957 grand prix into you tube several colour films come up.  Unfortunately, by sod's law, most of them by are of events where no coloured nose bands were used, but there is this

 

of the Italian Grand Prix where they were in use.

 

Steve

[Roger Clark]

Well, that implies a 'half band' rather darker than that on the restored car.
Seems an odd thing to have 'got wrong' if it only had the one outing as a works car and when such evidence is in a well-known archive; of course an owner do what they like (though some may disagree…) but one assumes that is the historic format, if any, in which one would wish to preserve it.
The pic in the 'car-by-car' section of David's book shows it 'bandless' but that is presumably taken at some later point in its life.

The 2529 picture in the "car-by-car" section of David's book looks to be Monaco and the number matches Fangio there in 1957.  However, Fangio drove 2528 at Monaco.  The picture cannot be in the race as Fangio was then wearing a light blue shirt.  Fangio did try most of the 250Fs in practice. The strange thing is that the car appears to have a scoop under the nose.  I can't recall any picture of a 250F with such a scoop, certainly not 2528 at Monaco..

 

I did once nervously suggest to David that there was a caption error in his book.  He eventually, and reluctantly admitted that I was right, but I can't believe that there were two errors.  No doubt, Barrie Hobkirk could explain.

[D-Type]

A far more basic question:  Why did Maserati use a half nose band?

[rudi]

The 2529 picture in the "car-by-car" section of David's book looks to be Monaco and the number matches Fangio there in 1957.  However, Fangio drove 2528 at Monaco.  The picture cannot be in the race as Fangio was then wearing a light blue shirt.  Fangio did try most of the 250Fs in practice. The strange thing is that the car appears to have a scoop under the nose.  I can't recall any picture of a 250F with such a scoop, certainly not 2528 at Monaco..

 

I did once nervously suggest to David that there was a caption error in his book.  He eventually, and reluctantly admitted that I was right, but I can't believe that there were two errors.  No doubt, Barrie Hobkirk could explain.

In Argentina, the cars of Fangio #2529, Moss #2527 and Behra # 2528 had such scoops.

[Roger Clark]

Thank you.  The Autosport pictures do not show the scoops but they are poor quality.

[wenoopy]

In Argentina, the cars of Fangio #2529, Moss #2527 and Behra # 2528 had such scoops.

 

Fangio's car had a coloured nose band in the Argentine GP, probably gold or yellow. See picture #47 in "My Twenty Years of Racing" where he leads Moss who has a plain-nosed car.  

If D-Type means by "half-nosed" that only the top half of the nose was coloured, the bottom half would have been parallel to the ground, and thus not visible to pit crew for recognition purposes anyway.

 

I note that in the 1956 German GP Ferrari had coloured(multi in one case) nose bands, and I wonder if the nose-band idea was the German organisers' requirement. I recall that in at least one later year drivers were relegated to the back of the grid if they had not completed a minimum number of practice laps.

 

Stu

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Hello Roger,

 

The picture in the car-by-car section of David's book in indeed correct. It is a picture of Fangio driving 2529 in practice for the 1957 Monaco GP. Fangio was entered in this, his usual car, but having tried 2528, preferred it's shorter wheelbase handling characteristics to his usual long wheelbase chassis. The numbers were changed before race day. Remember, Behra was not at Monaco, so it was not as if Fangio was pulling rank.

 

If you have pictures of both cars at Monaco, you will notice that 2529 has a low slung "bare" exhaust in-way-of the cockpit area whereas 2528's is high and has a protective guard. If the picture had been of the other side of the car, you could notice that 2529's number 32 was evenly painted but when applied overnight to chassis 2528, the "2" was applied crooked.

 

The chin scoop was a feature that could be quickly added or removed. By no means a permanent feature. 

 

Roger, you suggested a second caption  "error" in David's book. What was the other one, and I'll investigate for you.

 

Hope this has helped.

Cheers.

Barrie

[D-Type]

~

If D-Type means by "half-nosed" that only the top half of the nose was coloured, the bottom half would have been parallel to the ground, and thus not visible to pit crew for recognition purposes anyway.

~

That is what I meant.  It was more usual to paint an identification band right around the nose and painting only the top half of the nose for this race is the only example I can recall.  I was wondering if there was a reason for it.  Trivial, but I'm curious.

Edited by D-Type, 27 July 2015 - 07:47.

[Roger Clark]

Hello Roger,

 

The picture in the car-by-car section of David's book in indeed correct. It is a picture of Fangio driving 2529 in practice for the 1957 Monaco GP. Fangio was entered in this, his usual car, but having tried 2528, preferred it's shorter wheelbase handling characteristics to his usual long wheelbase chassis. The numbers were changed before race day. Remember, Behra was not at Monaco, so it was not as if Fangio was pulling rank.

 

If you have pictures of both cars at Monaco, you will notice that 2529 has a low slung "bare" exhaust in-way-of the cockpit area whereas 2528's is high and has a protective guard. If the picture had been of the other side of the car, you could notice that 2529's number 32 was evenly painted but when applied overnight to chassis 2528, the "2" was applied crooked.

 

The chin scoop was a feature that could be quickly added or removed. By no means a permanent feature. 

 

Roger, you suggested a second caption  "error" in David's book. What was the other one, and I'll investigate for you.

 

Hope this has helped.

Cheers.

Barrie

 

Many thanks, Barrie.  There is a picture in Maserati by Crump and De La rive Box (Page 168) captioned the factory team of 250Fs at Monaco, none of which appears to have the air scoop.  To judge from the size of the crowd in the background, I assume that it's a race day photo.

 

The error (I think) in David's book is page 101, captioned as Fangio, but I think it's Gerini.

[rudi]

Moroccan GP 1957 (non championship).

 

There is a well known Klemantaski photo with Behra and Rob Walker in front of the 4 factory 250F. No nose bands.

 

But the John du Puy car, #2521 driven by Jean Lucas had a nose band, dark on a b&w photo, may be dark blue

or black, who knows ?

 

The race number of this car was #18 (photo in Motorsport Dec 1957) but my old "black book" and other say #30.

Here the corrections for this race:  #16 Godia

                                                        #18 Lucas

                                                        #30 Salvadori

                                                        #32 Brabham

                                                        #14 Piotti who was DNA (no evidence for this one)

Edited by rudi, 28 July 2015 - 16:28.

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Hello again Roger,

I checked page 101 and you are correct on that one.

Clearly the wrong photo got posted as David was fully aware of these two cars.

Yes, Gerini in 2519 with Bonnier (2529) following. 1958 French GP.

 

In typical David style, he would probably have come back to you saying something like "It doesn't actually say its a picture of Fangio, the text is merely describing the race, which is correct. The 1958 French GP was Fangio's last placing in a World Championship Grand Prix."

 

Cheers,

Barrie

[Roger Clark]

That is precisely what he did say! Argumentative, David?

We still miss him.

[Barrie Hobkirk]

You are SO right there Roger.

I still catch myself, when finding a new "game-changing" 250F photo,

"Oh!, I must send that to..................., Cheers David."

 

Barrie