30 replies to this topic

[fbarrett]

My old friend, the late Ernie Weil, shot this photo somewhere in Europe in the early 1950s. Can anyone supply details, such as who, where, and when?

 

My first guess is Farina and Hawthorn (Ferraris), Pilette (Gordini). Are the Ferraris 500Fs or what? German GP? Year? Nuerburgring?

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Frank

[Roger Clark]

Rouen, 28th June 1953, Farina, Hawthorn, Trintingnant?

[Paul Parker]

Rouen, 28th June 1953, Farina, Hawthorn, Trintingnant?

 

Well done, the race numbers and the front row grid line up match as does the narrow track.

 

Farina won, Hawthorn was 2nd and 'Trint' retired, the Ferraris were fitted with the new Lampredi 2.5 litre motors for the forthcoming F1 in 1954 whilst Entancelin finished 3rd in his old Talbot Lago, this being de facto a Formula Libre race as per the Albi race that year.

[fbarrett]

Thanks!

 

Frank

[kayemod]

I'm sure there's a simple answer to this, but why is Ferrari number four cavallino-rampante-less?

[Arjan de Roos]

I'm sure there's a simple answer to this, but why is Ferrari number four cavallino-rampante-less?

Rouen was a last test for the 625 (car for the new year) and the upcoming race at Monza. So time may have been short.

[fbarrett]

The only thing that bugs me about this is that other web sources list the Ferraris with different numbers than the photos show:

 

Hawthorn, 16

Farina, 14

 

Any thoughts? Or its this just another case of the blessed internet being wrong? (My Autocourse back issues are not handy, or I'd check there.)

 

Frank

[raceannouncer2003]

The only thing that bugs me about this is that other web sources list the Ferraris with different numbers than the photos show:

 

Hawthorn, 16

Farina, 14

 

Any thoughts? Or its this just another case of the blessed internet being wrong? (My Autocourse back issues are not handy, or I'd check there.)

 

Frank

 

That was the French GP at Reims.  This is Rouen.

 

Vince H.

[Tim Murray]

Full results, with correct race numbers, on Darren Galpin's site (click on 'III Grand Prix de Rouen-les-Essarts' ) :

http://www.silhouet....1953.html#rouen

Edited by Tim Murray, 29 July 2015 - 06:11.

[Roger Clark]

That site says that Hawthorn and Farina drove their usual cars, numbers 1 and 4 respectively. However, Denis Jenkinson, in The Racing Car Review, says that the cars were stamped 3 (Farina) and 4 (Hawthorn). Hawthorn drove the 2.5-litre car again in the Libre race at the British Grand Prix. DSJ said it was the car that he drove at Rouen. By then it did have the Ferrarri emblem on the side. Apart from the engines, the cars were identical to the Formula 2 cars.

[JoyDiv]

Full results, with correct race numbers, on Darren Galpin's site (click on 'III Grand Prix de Rouen-les-Essarts' ) :

http://www.silhouet....1953.html#rouen

 

I've seen in this site

 

http://www.racingyea...d Prix de Rouen

 

that Farina and Hawthorn were using Ferrari 625 and Darren Galpin's site says Ferrari 500....which is correct?

Edited by JoyDiv, 30 July 2015 - 12:42.

[Roger Clark]

As far as I know, the 625 and the 500 were identical apart from the engine.  They had 2.5-litre engines at Rouen.

[Allan Lupton]

I've seen in this site

 

http://www.racingyea...d Prix de Rouen

 

that Farina and Hawthorn were using Ferrari 625 and Darren Galpin's site says Ferrari 500....which is correct?

Motor Sport reported that both Ferraris had 2½ litre motors as did Trintignant's Gordini.

Since Ferrari numbers 500 and 625 refer to the engine there may be some confusion because the cars were identical (more or less) apart from engine size.

 

ETA i.e. just as Roger wrote, while I was looking at Motor Sport

Edited by Allan Lupton, 30 July 2015 - 13:43.

[JoyDiv]

Understood, thanks Roger and Allan 

[Eric Dunsdon]

That site says that Hawthorn and Farina drove their usual cars, numbers 1 and 4 respectively. However, Denis Jenkinson, in The Racing Car Review, says that the cars were stamped 3 (Farina) and 4 (Hawthorn). Hawthorn drove the 2.5-litre car again in the Libre race at the British Grand Prix. DSJ said it was the car that he drove at Rouen. By then it did have the Ferrarri emblem on the side. Apart from the engines, the cars were identical to the Formula 2 cars.

 

The car that Hawthorn drove at Silverstone in 1953 was painted green by the way.

[D-Type]

The car that Hawthorn drove at Silverstone in 1953 was painted green by the way.

Are you sure about that?

 

When there was a previous thread about green, or perhaps 'not red', Ferraris, as far as I can recall people reckoned the only times that Hawthorn actually had a green Ferrari were in the Argentine 'Temporada'

 

Are you talking about the International Trophy or the Grand Prix?  Or both?

[Tim Murray]

Here's the earlier thread:

Hawthorn’s green Ferrari

In it Eric and Bauble, who were both present, maintained that the car was green:
 

At the British Grand Prix meeting 1953, a Formula Libre race ended the day's racing and amongst the entries was Mike Hawthorn Scuderia Ferrari number 20. In the programme it is listed as a 4500cc car, but what turned up was a F2 model with a 2.5 litre engine, being tested for the change of formula in 1954. Advance publicity said the car would be painted green especially for Mike. In the race it only lasted four laps before retiring with engine trouble, the race was won by Farina in the 'Thinwall' Ferrari. My memory tells me the car was green, however, I would not put money on it - it was 55 years ago!!

Jog any memories?

NB: Horace Richards was also entered in a 1954cc HAR. The programme cost 2/ shillings!!

Thank you for confirming my memory of Mike Hawthorn's 2.5 Litre Ferrari being green in that race. I remember him leading the field through Copse just after the start of the 50 mile race but being passed by Farina in the Thinwall-Ferrari during the first lap. Farina set the first ever 100mph race lap on his way to a comfortable win ahead of Fangio and Wharton on the V16 BRM's. I believe that Ron Flockhart was 4th on ERA R4D. My only other memory is of Austen Nurse spinning his HWM into the safety bank just in front of us. No 1950's Formula Libre race was complete without Horace Richards HAR. I am not sure if, or where he finished but his fastest race lap was 2.13 as compared to Farina's 1.45.2.

Edited by Tim Murray, 30 July 2015 - 17:27.

[rudi]

There is a colour video "The BRM Collection Volume 2, 1953-1955 Back to Formula 1" shoving the start of that FL race.

Hawthorn's car was green.

[ReWind]

I've seen in this site

 

http://www.racingyea...d Prix de Rouen

 

that Farina and Hawthorn were using Ferrari 625 and Darren Galpin's site says Ferrari 500....which is correct?

BTW, nice to see that site running again.

 

In earlier days it was Racing-Database.com. After its sudden demise it briefly reappeared as All-Racing-Database.com and then as RacingYears.com, but both times only for a brief period. Let's hope that this time its resurgence is for longer.

[D-Type]

What do people make of this http://www.shorey.ne...ferrari f2).jpg which is captioned as Hawthorn in the 1953 International Trophy.  The race number is correct for Hawthorn in that race.

[Roger Clark]

Is there any reason to suppose that the caption is incorrect?

[Eric Dunsdon]

What do people make of this http://www.shorey.ne...ferrari f2).jpg which is captioned as Hawthorn in the 1953 International Trophy.  The race number is correct for Hawthorn in that race.

 

What t has that got to do with the July Grand Prix meeting Formula Libre race in july that we were discussing?.

[Tim Murray]

It's a nice photo, though.

[D-Type]

My mistake   

I asked for confirmation as to which Silverstone meeting and received no response so I mistakenly looked for International Trophy pictures.

 

The reason for my scepticism is that I can't understand why Ferrari would go to the trouble of painting a car green for that race.  The Argentine Temporada makes some sort of sense - to make the circus appear more multi-coloured and international - but a minor Formule Libre race!  

 

Unless he was hoping to flog it to Vandervall to become a new Thinwall, or even BRM who may have been a potential customer as they bought a Maserati the following year.  With development of the 'Squalo' well in hand ready for the following season, they would be assuming the 500/625 cars would be redundant at the end of the season and hence up for sale.

[Eric Dunsdon]

It's a nice photo, though.

Yes thats Mike in the 53 Trophy Race which he won. The car that he drove in the Grand Prix in  July was also red. His car for the Formula Libre race was, however

Green. I saw it with my own eyes, which were pretty good in those days!.

[ray b]

My old friend, the late Ernie Weil, shot this photo somewhere in Europe in the early 50's

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Frank

wait WINGS ON THOSE CARS

the bit behind the front wheels did what and why

down force or low drag or ?

[Eric Dunsdon]

wait WINGS ON THOSE CARS

the bit behind the front wheels did what and why

down force or low drag or ?

Anti splash guards, in case it was wet!.

[Sharman]

...

Anti splash guards, in case it was wet!.

 

and anti stone chippings too Eric
 

[Roger Clark]

Does anybody know anything about chassis numbers of these cars?  DSJ, in The Racing Car Review tells us that the works drivers kept the same car for most of the championship races:  Ascari ( number 5), Farina (4), Villoresi (3, 6 at Spa), Hawthorn (1). Number 2 was used as a spare early in the season, number 6 later.  David McKinney's notes say that all six cars, with the exception of number 5, were updated with 625 engines for 1954.  One new car was built for 1954 (7), another for 1955 (8).  

 

That seems clear enough but what about the 1953 2.5-litre cars?  The Racing Car Review says that Farina's car at Rouen was stamped 3 and Hawthorn's 4 and that Hawthorn's Silverstone Libre car was also 4.  Were these new cars, otherwise unaccounted for, or was Ferrari juggling identities?

[Eric Dunsdon]

...

 

and anti stone chippings too Eric
 

Yes, stone chippings too. Those were the days!.

[kayemod]

Yes, stone chippings too. Those were the days!.

 

They were indeed, but how did the 53 Ferrari handle kerbs, could it be bounced over them as far as the Astroturf behind?

 

(And no suggestions on the missing cavallino-rampante? It's not the era I know best, but I can't recall seeing a photo of a factory Ferrari so-raced).