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#51 lars75

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 14:52

Oh, ok. I guess he might as well just quit now then. :well:

 

Well thats the way I think about it myself. Button, Raikkonen, Massa and Alonso can quit with their head held high.



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#52 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 15:31

Nope, but Massa would be perfectly replaced by Jafaar ;-)

 

 

I don't think Jaafar's best days are equal to when Massa getting creamed by Alonso.



#53 DS27

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 16:14

All sportmen (and woman) are getting younger. Look at even a fairly non-physical sport like Golf and the age of the successful guys has dropped dramatically compared to a couple of decades ago.



#54 JAW97

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 16:23

I've always considered the physical decline with age (in terms of driving anyway) to be a little overstated, especially if you take care of yourself. It's more to do with mental fatigue and motivation which get worse with 'mileage' imo.

Then again, I'm speaking as an 18 year old. I'm sure there's plenty of old crocks on here that know the physical effects of aging better than I do... :kiss:

Edited by JAW97, 06 August 2015 - 16:24.


#55 AustinF1

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 16:45

Well thats the way I think about it myself. Button, Raikkonen, Massa and Alonso can quit with their head held high.

LOL.



#56 MaxMylzahet

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Posted 06 August 2015 - 20:38

First I will state;

Age is not an issue.

The package is.

 

Did not a certain Romain G. and one Felipe M. shouted loud about the outrage an under aged kid without experience making one error of Monegasque proportions while themselves being only just outgrown enough to be caught red handed playing Pin the Tail on the Donkey during F1 races.

Do not also people say driving F1 cars nowadays is as trivial as directing your joystick while being seated in your lazy chair?

No, age is not of consequence.

 

Mentality is.
 


Edited by MaxMylzahet, 06 August 2015 - 20:39.


#57 ViMaMo

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 02:10

I don't think is age that matters most, but it counts.

 

Raikkonen, Button, Alonso, Massa all started F1 '01 and '02 and they even competed in F1 against the dad of todays F1 youngest.

 

They all had their chances and three of them bacame WDC. So nothing wrong with that. But at this point Rosberg, Vettel, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Hulkenberg and Bottas are the new bunch that at the current moment are top level and in their prime. Although Button, Raikkonen and Button still could deliver a good pace have many years of experience, on the long term you can't build a team arround them anymore. So in this perspective they are to old. Next to this there are many talented drivers who deserve a chance in F1 just like they did and with them staying the young guys don't get the chance. 

 

Magnussen, Frijns, Vandoorne, Magnussen, Gasly, Lynn, de Vries, le Clerq, Albon, Ocon, Fuoco, Marciello, Rowland, Jafaar, Vaxiviere all stoud or will stand in line for F1 and are more then capable to be there. And we are only talking about four available seats held by four 'older' guys who had there shot.

 

Its up to the teams to hire/retain who they want. I'm sure they (top teams) don't retain a certain driver  for long if its hurting their chances @ the championship .... maybe the driver is slow or inexperienced or inconsistent or whatever. 



#58 anneomoly

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 12:32

All sportmen (and woman) are getting younger. Look at even a fairly non-physical sport like Golf and the age of the successful guys has dropped dramatically compared to a couple of decades ago.

 

Better prep. Better science. Better teaching.  If you take a sportschild at 10 and start putting the right food, the right training, the right sports psychology into them at that age, teach them specifically how to prepare and start treating them as mini professionals at that age, they're going to be more ready at 24 than a child that's been allowed to fumble their way through without the guidance.

 

People just didn't really do that 20 or 30 years ago. No one thought to do it, and no had the knowledge to do it even if they did. The tennis junior tour started in 1977 with nine tournaments a year and now has 400. The European junior golf tour has conditions of entry for 6-7 years old. Verstappen started karting at 4.5 years old.

 

It's taking exactly the same time to produce a top level sportsperson.



#59 greenman

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 20:13

I've always considered the physical decline with age (in terms of driving anyway) to be a little overstated, especially if you take care of yourself. It's more to do with mental fatigue and motivation which get worse with 'mileage' imo.
 

Pretty much this. I don't think you necessarily need to be in the best shape of your life to compete for wins in racing (any series), it's not like athletics or cycling where the athletes actually push their bodies to the limits. But I suppose there are a lot of factors in why some people will stop performing on the same level anymore - decrease of motivation, changes in personal life, changes in the sport they're in, or really simply "mileage" and spending too much time doing the same thing.

 

I do not however believe that there is a certain age for any driver after which they simply "lose it", like I've seen too many people post on forums claim. I mean, I'm also guilty of saying that about racers, but you only need to see recent Rossi resurgence (or maybe even JPM's improvement from last year to this) to see that's just not the case. 



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#60 sopa

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 12:15

Okay, I'll try to make a summary of how I understand this matter.

 

We are talking about very small margins here, maybe 0.1-0.2 seconds off. It is not like if you get to a certain age, you will be at the pace of Zsolt Baumgartner, Mazzacane or Ricardo Rosset. You are still fast and competitive, just without a tiny edge. In superficial view you can say that yeah "aging doesn't matter". But you need to dig deep and analyze the specifics to recognize the trends. I think "aging" is a better word than "age", because "aging" is a more individual-specific phrase.

 

It will be down to individual reasons, person specifics, how does the decline appear. For example Michael Schumacher may not have lost speed in 2005-2006, but he certainly made more mistakes than he had been making before. Arguably that's why Michael lost the 2006 championship to Alonso - he made more mistakes during the season.

 

Yeah, Schumacher's race pace was pretty good also in 2011-2012. But look at the "completeness", other factors, ie. his racecraft. He lost a countless amount of front wings during that time frame. Also adaptability. It took 3 years for Schumacher to get up to speed. Many claim 2012 was his best comeback season. But at older age adaptability window is smaller, and it can take longer to truly adapt to things.

 

Yeah, each case will be different, how can a decline apear. Some will struggle with motivation. Some are simply burnt out/tired. Some lose a bit of racecraft (Coulthard crashed a lot in 2008), some lose speed. Some simply struggle to adapt to new things, either new team environment or new technical regulations. There is a saying - old dog doesn't learn new tricks. Some start to lose it already in early 30s, majority in late 30s.

 

I would not worry about Alonso. Because his innate talent level is so high. As somebody mentioned, chances are not good a talented rookie would outperform Alonso over the next couple of seasons. Were Alonso to lose a tiny bit of his edge, he'd still be a damn good racing driver and beat most of the field. The likes of Button, Massa and Raikkonen operate on a lower level and you can ask a more justified question about their future prospects.


Edited by sopa, 11 August 2015 - 12:18.


#61 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 15:39

Yeah, each case will be different, how can a decline apear. Some will struggle with motivation. Some are simply burnt out/tired. Some lose a bit of racecraft (Coulthard crashed a lot in 2008)

Sometimes it can be difficult to tell why a driver is losing it and whether it's even to do with age. With Coulthard, you note his decline in 2008, but he also had a decline in 2003-2004 where he was pretty poor for most of the time. Was that age? But then he seemed to get better in 2005 at Red Bull. Also Raikkonen has never been the same driver since leaving McLaren at the end of 2006, but he was still quite young then. Sometimes circumstances can cause a driver to look worse than they were previously, and if they also happen to be of a certain age, then it's easy to blame their age. But can we be sure? Likewise I don't really believe that Hill's 1999 decline was mostly about age. It happened too suddenly. I was always of the view that a properly functioning Frentzen was better than Hill anyway (I don't think Hill could have done what Frentzen did in his first Sauber stint), and I think it all came together that year.

#62 Jimisgod

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Posted 11 August 2015 - 17:18

Also Raikkonen has never been the same driver since leaving McLaren at the end of 2006, but he was still quite young then.

 

Raikkonen is possibly the hardest champion to rate. As a near-rookie, looked like upsetting Schumacher at his prime in 2003. Appeared to be the fastest driver in F1 between 2003-2006. Then he goes to Ferrari and loses, overall, to who was then considered a good also-ran - Massa. Returns to make "Lotus" look good for exactly the two seasons he was driving for them (of course, Kubica was achieving promising results in 2010 at the team - the 2011 drivers were just mediocrity defined). Goes back to Ferrari and gets comprehensively beaten by two champions - Alonso and Vettel.

 

I think Kimi's problem isn't age, but enthusiasm. However they probably overlap to a degree.