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Has the question about Vettel been satisfactorily answered?


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#1 johnnycomelately1

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:25

Is it plausible that Vettel wins 39 Grands Prix over 2008 to 2013 resulting in 4 consecutive world championships and then no wins, none?
The only opinion i saw was that he could not adapt to the new formula cars.
That does not seem reasonable.
The old adage says car 80% and driver 20% with bikes the reverse.
One would have to say that the car ratio now would be 90% or more.
But does that account for Vettels results?
If it does things are crook.
Any ideas?



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#2 apoka

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:38

I don't understand the first sentence - he won 2 races this year. (Unless this post somehow was done in 2014 and just appeared now.)

 

If you actually want to start a discussion, you should formulate "the question" which you mention in the thread title. Driver threads are not allowed, so please discuss a particular aspect.

 

Personally, I had hopes for Vettel in 2006 and was convinced he can achieve a lot at some point in 2007 (and ever since). Others will never be convinced, so don't expect a uniform opinion.


Edited by apoka, 02 August 2015 - 11:00.


#3 Marklar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:38

Basically this is the case. The car ratio is easily over 90 %. But this is normal and it was always the case that in case of an dominant car the driver is rarely making the difference (currently Mercedes, at the beginning of the Millennium Ferrari, in the 80s McLaren or in the previous years RB). Between 2005-2008 I think we had always at least two competitive teams and than the drivers are making the difference (or the reliability like 2005). The 2nd season half of 2009 was also a great example where Brawn, RB, Ferrari and McLaren were on par and almost every race winner was indeed the one who made the difference.

#4 YoungGun

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:47

Yes.



#5 P123

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:47

You mean, is he back on form when compared to 2014? Well, he looks more settled at Ferrari this year. Less complaining, and he's doing the dominating of his teammate this time round. The car will always be important, for any driver. The illness of this forum is the prats who waste so much energy telling us how bad Vettel, Hamilton, Button, etc are.

#6 Marklar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 10:51

If you mean the question like everyone here (except of me) is understand it than this thread is not allowed (driver thread). Or is this a general question like I think ("Is the car ratio to hight?")

Edited by Marklar, 02 August 2015 - 10:52.


#7 johnnycomelately1

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 11:40

Why did he win 39 times over 6 consecutive years and then nothing at all in 2014?

can it really be answered by saying he could not drive the new formula cars?

or could the 80/20 adage now possibly being 90/10 totally exclude such a skill

or did the 90/10 adage give him 4 world championships?

if so, are the drivers really that unimportant and equalised?



#8 Marklar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 11:47

Why did he win 39 times over 6 consecutive years and then nothing at all in 2014?
can it really be answered by saying he could not drive the new formula cars?
or could the 80/20 adage now possibly being 90/10 totally exclude such a skill
or did the 90/10 adage give him 4 world championships?
if so, are the drivers really that unimportant and equalised?


As I explained earlier: yes, if a car is dominating than the drivers are almost unimportant. If its a close a competition than the driver is making the difference. Or if a driver in an inferiour car is winning than usually the driver also made the difference.

In Vettels case I also think that he wasnt motivated. He dont like the new F1, was satisfied and tired with his success and became a father. The team change gave him a new motivation.

#9 johnnycomelately1

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 11:54

As I explained earlier: yes, if a car is dominating than the drivers are almost unimportant. If its a close a competition than the driver is making the difference. Or if a driver in an inferiour car is winning than usually the driver also made the difference.

In Vettels case I also think that he wasnt motivated. He dont like the new F1, was satisfied and tired with his success and became a father. The team change gave him a new motivation.

interesting regarding the reasons for Vettel, i wonder if Red Bull asked for their pay to be returned :)



#10 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 11:58

No !

 

That question will only be answered when he will be measured against certain drivers for two years. Rosberg next to him in a Ferrari for two years, or Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo or Verstappen in a few years time...right now it's not telling enough against a Raikkonen who's performance is poorly and only Webber, the one year he got really tested by Ricciardo he failed.

 

If drivers want to be considered to have been belonged to the best, they should make a case to their teams to get the best next to them and not for them to retain a driver who has shown not to belong to them (any more).



#11 pacificquay

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 11:59

If the driver is unimportant, surely teammates would always qualify on the same row of the grid and finish in formation in the race.



#12 aramos

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:17

I don't really see what needed to be answered. its clear that last year and this year, without dominant cars his win rate has been drastically cut down, so was he winning so much because of the car? Absolutely.

 

Is he capable of winning races without the fastest car? I think the answer is obviously yes, when everything goes his way.

 

But I don't really see what has changed from last year. Raikkonen is flattering Vettel this season a lot, he's driving a car that on most days is capable of third with a team mate that is no longer a challenge to strong drivers. So you would expect him to be the driver to pick up the wins on the days Mercedes throw it away. If you look at the v6 turbo era, Vettel has the 4th most wins during that period, when he has typically driven the 2nd best car on average. That would place him roughly were you would expect. But you don't see him getting pole position after pole position, you don't see him sprinting away from other cars and prior to Raikkonen, you don't see him dominating his team mates. Why? Because that was due to a certain situation he was in with dominant cars and Mark Webber.

 

If I had to put my money on it I'd say apart from the 'aliens' of Alonso and Hamilton he'd have a shot at beating every other driver, not saying he would necessarily beat them, but he'd have a shot. 


Edited by aramos, 02 August 2015 - 12:23.


#13 VolvoT5

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:24

I've always rated Vettel as being on the same level as the very best and I do not think his dominance at Redbull was purely down to the car.  He had a bad year last year and I find it hard to read that much into 2014 because it is so far out of character from 2009 - 2013.

 

However for Seb's critics I don't think this year 'answers' anything because Raikkonen has been so far below his best these last 2 years it is hard for anyone to really gauge the performance of Vettel relatively.... those critics would probably say Fernando or Lewis would be challenging at every race in the 2015 Ferrari (I think they would be wrong). 



#14 Marklar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:30

No !

 

That question will only be answered when he will be measured against certain drivers for two years. Rosberg next to him in a Ferrari for two years, or Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo or Verstappen in a few years time...right now it's not telling enough against a Raikkonen who's performance is poorly and only Webber, the one year he got really tested by Ricciardo he failed.

 

If drivers want to be considered to have been belonged to the best, they should make a case to their teams to get the best next to them and not for them to retain a driver who has shown not to belong to them (any more).

By this logic Schumacher never proved that he is a great driver.....



#15 aramos

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:32

I've always rated Vettel as being on the same level as the very best and I do not think his dominance at Redbull was purely down to the car. He had a bad year last year and I find it hard to read that much into 2014 because it is so far out of character from 2009 - 2013.

However for Seb's critics I don't think this year 'answers' anything because Raikkonen has been so far below his best these last 2 years it is hard for anyone to really gauge the performance of Vettel relatively.... those critics would probably say Fernando or Lewis would be challenging at every race in the 2015 Ferrari (I think they would be wrong).


I don't think Fernando or Lewis would win every race at Ferrari or anything, but it's certainly very convenient that Vettel is now facing a likely far weaker benchmark than Ricciardo and this is no doubt helping perceptions of his performance relative to last year.

#16 Jimisgod

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:40

No.

 

Ricciardo took 3 wins to his 0 in 2014 and Alonso beat Kimi more comprehensively. Until the Ricciardo question is answered, Vettel has an asterisk.

 

The fact Sauber has 22 points to the stone cold zero it had last year shows the Ferrari engine is significantly better than 2014, too.



#17 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:42

By this logic Schumacher never proved that he is a great driver.....

 

Schumacher has been really challenged on track by cars who were competitive. Besides, Schumacher his way of driving was also proof for it, while Vettel his style of driving is much less proof of it.

 

At least Prost and Senna had the balls to go head to head with each other, one of the reasons why most will put them higher as Schumacher.  ;)



#18 Marklar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:46

Schumacher has been really challenged on track by cars who were competitive. Besides, Schumacher his way of driving was also proof for it, while Vettel his style of driving is much less proof of it.

 

At least Prost and Senna had the balls to go head to head with each other, one of the reasons why most will put them higher as Schumacher.  ;)

Explain.



#19 v@sh

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:50

I think I will wait judgement that he belongs in the Hamilton/Alonso pairing until he pairs up with someone else other than Kimi. I don't think Kimi is at his best and the regs don't suit his style - particularly with qualifying - in much the same way the Pirelli era never suited Webber's driving style. I still rate Vettel quite high, I just don't think Kimi is a great barometer given where the stage of his career is at. Having a driver that isn't performing at his best increases his value, even moreso having won the last race. As DC used to say, you are only as good as your last race.

 

If Kimi is retained, then we will be seeing more of the same next year IMO.



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#20 kosmos

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:52

 and Alonso beat Kimi more comprehensively.

 

 

 

I don't think this should be a factor when rating Vettel this year, the cars are too different in speed and quality.



#21 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:53

Explain.

 

Schumacher his wet weather drives and Qualifying were as an example outstanding.

 

And this...

 



#22 xtremeclock

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:54

Yes, one, just one below-average season can't put a question mark on his achievements, it's not his fault he was lucky to have the best car during four and half seasons and by the way Hamilton is doing exactly the same...

 

 

----

 

CurbPainter:

 

Vettel is another outstanding wet-weather driver, he and Hamilton are probably by far the best in damp conditions....


Edited by xtremeclock, 02 August 2015 - 12:58.


#23 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:05

Yes, one, just one below-average season can't put a question mark on his achievements, it's not his fault he was lucky to have the best car during four and half seasons and by the way Hamilton is doing exactly the same...

 

 

----

 

CurbPainter:

 

Vettel is another outstanding wet-weather driver, he and Hamilton are probably by far the best in damp conditions....

 

When Vettel was able to win with the Toro Rosso in the rain, the car was set up for rain and the rest of the field not.

 

The Red Bull cars have been also very good in the rain, because its chassis has been very good for many years. Vettel is absolutely good in the rain, but is he as good as Schumacher was ?



#24 JHSingo

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:17

When Vettel was able to win with the Toro Rosso in the rain, the car was set up for rain and the rest of the field not.

 

The Red Bull cars have been also very good in the rain, because its chassis has been very good for many years. Vettel is absolutely good in the rain, but is he as good as Schumacher was ?

 

Gosh, how many more caveats (not Kvyats  ;)) do you want to add in? He needs to beat another driver other than Webber or Raikkonen, the Red Bull chassis was the reason he won in the wet....anything else?

 

I just find it funny the lengths people go to to try and diminish his success, with some weird statistics or bizarre theories.



#25 Seanspeed

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:19

Cant just ignore that 2014 happened, but I've never believed it was 'all just the car' or anything anyways. He'd impressed before he was ever given top machinery, which people tend to conveniently forget when it comes to arguing this.
 

When Vettel was able to win with the Toro Rosso in the rain, the car was set up for rain and the rest of the field not.

I think you just made that up.
 

As DC used to say, you are only as good as your last race.

I don't think you understand the context of that phrase. It's meant to show how people have very short memories, not treat it as any sort of truth.

Edited by Seanspeed, 02 August 2015 - 13:23.


#26 HP

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:19

If it just were that easy. Ask Mika. He basically quit because the stress of running a 3rd championship in a row was too much for him.

 

I just want to say this. No driver lucks into 4 championships in a row, not even one in a row. Regardless the car.

 

We might be in for a treat this year judging by Vettel's comments about the game being in on in regards to the championship. That's when in the 2nd part of the season he stringed together a few wins to gave him the championship. Right now it seems impossible with Mercedes car advantage.



#27 Spillage

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:22

Alonso beat Kimi more comprehensively

Is this actually true? Seems to me they've had a similar advantage over Kimi, who in any case says he's much happier with this year's car than last year.

2014 looks more and more like an anomaly to me, like Hamilton in 2011. Last year Vettel had terrible reliability, a new baby to think about (apparently he was leaving races early to be with his family) and his head was being turned by Ferrari. In every other season he's driven he has been very, very impressive.

#28 Marklar

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:24

Is this actually true? Seems to me they've had a similar advantage over Kimi, who in any case says he's much happier with this year's car than last year.

2014 looks more and more like an anomaly to me, like Hamilton in 2011. Last year Vettel had terrible reliability, a new baby to think about (apparently he was leaving races early to be with his family) and his head was being turned by Ferrari. In every other season he's driven he has been very, very impressive.

That is a funny story actually. Last year in Australia his returning flight to Switzerland was scheduled during the race. He knew that he would retire :lol:



#29 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:26

Gosh, how many more caveats (not Kvyats  ;)) do you want to add in? He needs to beat another driver other than Webber or Raikkonen, the Red Bull chassis was the reason he won in the wet....anything else?

 

I just find it funny the lengths people go to to try and diminish his success, with some weird statistics or bizarre theories.

 

No, only just true F1 legends have balls, which also means they want to measure themselves to the best...if not, it will be nothing more as those cultivated boxers with their incredible win to lose ratios, which, when having to go against as serious opponent, comes up short.

 

How I long for the days when athletes who wanted to the best, actually wanted to measure themselves against the best.


Edited by CurbPainter, 02 August 2015 - 13:36.


#30 DarthWillie

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:27

Drivers aren't machines. Maybe just maybe some other factors influenced Vettel last year, becoming a father, schumachers accident and being in a lesser car after 5 years fighting for the title might have made him loose some focus

Funny thing is only Vettel being questioned like this. Hamilton lost out to button, Alonso was equaled by a rookie. No questions ???

#31 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:31

 I think you just made that up.
 

 

I did not make that up, I thought it was common knowledge...TR is known for making gambles, and they did that day by putting Vettel on a high downforce set up, which is what you want with rain, having as much downforce on a car as you can to press the car onto the tarmac.



#32 Seanspeed

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:33

Funny thing is only Vettel being questioned like this. Hamilton lost out to button, Alonso was equaled by a rookie. No questions ???

Because neither Alonso nor Lewis were ever beaten as comprehensively as Vettel was beaten last year.

Hamilton lost out to Button in the points, but still beat Button quite a few times that year and had some of his finest drives.

Alonso *tied* with Lewis in the points, but as we all know now, Lewis is a special driver and had great year. Not much shame in that.

Also, you must have had your fingers in your ears if you don't think either of those drivers were never questioned over these things..
 

I did not make that up, I thought it was common knowledge...TR is known for making gambles, and they did that day by putting Vettel on a high downforce set up, which is what you want with rain, having as much downforce on a car as you can to press the car onto the tarmac.

Never heard that at all. Maybe you didn't make it up, but I'm pretty sure you are either misled, misremembering or have a bad source.

Considering that everybody knew it was going to rain all weekend, I would think that anybody who *didn't* go for a wet setup was the one gambling. Not that I'm convinced that they actually did have any sort of higher downforce setup in the first place.

Edited by Seanspeed, 02 August 2015 - 13:37.


#33 JHSingo

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:34

No, only just true F1 legends have balls, which also means they want to measure themselves to the best...

 

If you mean the two best drivers in the same team - how often has that ever happened?

 

Was Michael Schumacher measuring himself against the best when he had Irvine and Barrichello as subservient number two drivers as team mates? Of course he wasn't.

 

More often than not in the whole history of F1, that's not been the case. So purely to single out Vettel for that, and make an argument that he hasn't proved himself against the strongest drivers, is pretty ridiculous.


Edited by JHSingo, 02 August 2015 - 13:35.


#34 Seanspeed

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:38

Well I guess we can answer the thread question:

No, obviously it has not been satisfactorily answered. I still plenty of people doubting him and plenty of people going out of their way to downplay his accomplishments.

#35 HP

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:48

Well I guess we can answer the thread question:

No, obviously it has not been satisfactorily answered. I still plenty of people doubting him and plenty of people going out of their way to downplay his accomplishments.

That's your premise, no matter the driver there are always some people against him. So a question like this will never been answered satisfactory.



#36 HeadFirst

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:48

Drivers aren't machines. Maybe just maybe some other factors influenced Vettel last year, becoming a father, schumachers accident and being in a lesser car after 5 years fighting for the title might have made him loose some focus

Funny thing is only Vettel being questioned like this. Hamilton lost out to button, Alonso was equaled by a rookie. No questions ???

 

Well I don't agree there were no questions about Alonso in 2007, or Button in 2011 (there were plenty), but I do believe Seb suffered an off year in 2014. I speculated before the season that the birth of his first child, would have an impact on Seb, and I think it is also possible that Schumacher's unfortunate accident had some effect. There are also some that speculate that Vettel "tanked" 2014, so that he could bail on RB and join Ferrari. For me he simply had an off year, as many drivers do, in Seb's case due to a perfect storm of distractions.



#37 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:48

If you mean the two best drivers in the same team - how often has that ever happened?

 

Was Michael Schumacher measuring himself against the best when he had Irvine and Barrichello as subservient number two drivers as team mates? Of course he wasn't.

 

More often than not in the whole history of F1, that's not been the case. So purely to single out Vettel for that, and make an argument that he hasn't proved himself against the strongest drivers, is pretty ridiculous.

 

The question of the topic is, if it is now answered satisfactory that he's really that good, and for me it hasn't, because he should go again head to head with the best to give me a satisfactory answer to that...in your opinion it now maybe answered, but to me it hasn't been fully answered yet.

 

I just like athletes who say, "let's bring it on, and I want to be the best by beating the best."



#38 Afterburner

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:53

The only questions that are close to being answered are those of Alonso, Button, and Raikkonen. Hamilton and Vettel remain open until their careers are over.

Oh, and anyone claiming Monza 2008 was a lucky win has no idea what they're talking about. Vettel was on a dry setup for the race while everyone else was running a wet one; I'd source that but I'm on a mobile. You can find old interviews with Ascanelli (I think?) which will confirm this, though. That win was 100% talent.

#39 JHSingo

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:54

The question of the topic is, if it is now answered satisfactory that he's really that good, and for me it hasn't, because he should go again head to head with the best to give me a satisfactory answer to that...in your opinion it now maybe answered, but to me it hasn't been fully answered yet.

 

I just like athletes who say, "let's bring it on, and I want to be the best by beating the best."

 

Fair enough. I just find it rather ironic you criticise Vettel for that, while defending Schumacher, who never raced against the best driver on the grid in the same team either. Neither did many other champions...

 

But both Schumacher and Vettel are legends of the sport for what they have accomplished. Maybe for some people it will take far longer to accept that, particularly in the case of Vettel. But one season does not define a career.



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#40 xtremeclock

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 13:58

Well I don't agree there were no questions about Alonso in 2007, or Button in 2011 (there were plenty), but I do believe Seb suffered an off year in 2014. I speculated before the season that the birth of his first child, would have an impact on Seb, and I think it is also possible that Schumacher's unfortunate accident had some effect. There are also some that speculate that Vettel "tanked" 2014, so that he could bail on RB and join Ferrari. For me he simply had an off year, as many drivers do, in Seb's case due to a perfect storm of distractions.

 

It could also be true, too bad we'll never know.

 

 

http://www.skysports...ys-helmut-marko

SkyF1: "However, rather than simply breaking his existing deal to head to Maranello, Marko explained that a clause in Vettel’s deal meant he was free to seek pastures new for 2015. It is believed that the get-out clause related to the German’s position in the Drivers’ Championship at the end of September - Vettel is currently a lowly fifth after a difficult season in which he has been outperformed by Daniel Ricciardo."



#41 Kelateboy

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:02

When Vettel was able to win with the Toro Rosso in the rain, the car was set up for rain and the rest of the field not.

 

The Red Bull cars have been also very good in the rain, because its chassis has been very good for many years. Vettel is absolutely good in the rain, but is he as good as Schumacher was ?

 

 

I did not make that up, I thought it was common knowledge...TR is known for making gambles, and they did that day by putting Vettel on a high downforce set up, which is what you want with rain, having as much downforce on a car as you can to press the car onto the tarmac.

 

You have it all backwards. What made Vettel's drive at Monza 2008 so special was that he was on a dry-setup throughout the race weekend. Yes, he gambled with a dry set up in the race and the drying track halfway through the race helped him tremendously. When he got pole in the qualifying, the car was also set-up for dry weather.

 

Sebastian said after the race :-

 

“It was difficult to realise what had happened,” said Vettel whose wide-eyed innocent delight wooed the crowd. “It was unbelievable seeing everybody going crazy all the way round the circuit. To see the people in the team, from my family, going mad and then to listen to my national anthem I started to cry.

“I think we made the right choice yesterday. I was thinking that today would be a dry race, so we kept the dry settings, we were very fast on the straights and it was important to get out (of the pits) before the one-stoppers (cars making only one refuelling stop) came out.”

 

http://www.sportstar...20505503700.htm



#42 plumtree

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:12

I did not make that up, I thought it was common knowledge...TR is known for making gambles, and they did that day by putting Vettel on a high downforce set up, which is what you want with rain, having as much downforce on a car as you can to press the car onto the tarmac.

Again the wet setup myth. 
 
# 2008 Italian Grand Prix Post-Race Press Conference
 
Q: Talk us through your race and being so much quicker in the speed trap.
SV: Well, for the speed trap I think there is an explanation. We didn't go for a more downforce configuration, thinking it might be dry today, so we stuck to the dry level and didn't touch it, so on the straight lines we were bloody fast compared to all the others. [...] As I said yesterday, when you're a bit smarter and looking at the speed traps, we didn't set the car up for rain conditions. I was thinking that today was going to be a dry race. Obviously it was not, especially at the beginning. We were on a usual dry set-up to be honest. 
 
# Berger (in a post qualifying interview): "In the wet, always everything is possible but to be honest especially on Sebastian's car we've set everything well for the dry. So, we have this performance in the wet was really surprising for me too."



#43 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:14

Fair enough. I just find it rather ironic you criticise Vettel for that, while defending Schumacher, who never raced against the best driver on the grid in the same team either. Neither did many other champions...

 

But both Schumacher and Vettel are legends of the sport for what they have accomplished. Maybe for some people it will take far longer to accept that, particularly in the case of Vettel. But one season does not define a career.

 

I know what Schumacher did, but without that, I still could see that he was one the best.

 

Vettel his career is not over by along way, and I don't care if his preference right now is Raikkonen. I also think Vettel is one of the better drivers on the grid, but if guys like Hamilton and him really want to become F1 legends, they will say at the end of their careers, "And now I will go against one of the other best drivers on the grid."

 

- Vettel against Hamilton in the same car

- Vettel against Alonso in the same car

- Vettel again against Ricciardo but this time in a different car

- Vettel against Rosberg would also be a great indicator

- A few years older Verstappen against Vettel in the same car

 

...would all be nice to see if he's really good enough to be considered to be among the best, right now he's only one of the better drivers on the grid of today for me, but I can't count him to best drivers of all time when he hasn't been measured enough against the other best drivers on the grid.



#44 TurnOffTheLights

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:23



No.

 

Ricciardo took 3 wins to his 0 in 2014 and Alonso beat Kimi more comprehensively. Until the Ricciardo question is answered, Vettel has an asterisk.

 

The fact Sauber has 22 points to the stone cold zero it had last year shows the Ferrari engine is significantly better than 2014, too.

That's no stringent logic. Marussia-Ferrari had  2 points in 2014, but won't score any this year. Ferrari engine worse now?

Force India has only 39 points this year, but had 98 last year. Mercedes engine worse this year?

While it is highly likely that the Ferrari engine is better compared to last year, there are lots of other influences that are responsible for Sauber's points plus today: better overall package, maybe better drivers, much more luck, weaker and more unreliable opposition.

There are no real indications Alonso has been dominating Kimi more than Vettel does right now, that's just subjective thinking.

 

Both Ricciardo in 2014 and Vettel in 2015 only have won races when Mercedes messed up heavily.

If it's 1, 2 or 3 wins in such a season is mainly depending only on how often both Mercedes are messing up, and then some luck and skill to be the first one in line to benefit from that. 

In 2 out of his 3 wins Ricciardo wasn't even really best of the rest and the first in line to benefit from Mercedes' problems by his own efforts, but needed some more opponents to struggle. 

In Canada he needed Perez to have brake problems and Williams strategy mistakes, in Hungary he was nowhere before the Safety car and profited from 3 more drivers (except the Mercedes guys) bad luck: Bottas, Vettel and Alonso.

 

This year Vettel is almost always there in 3rd place. That can surely be due to Ferrari being relatively better compared to the other Non-Mercedes than RedBull has been last year, but who knows.

 

In the end it's just illogical meaningless nonsense to question a driver by using only a very tight range of results instead of watching at the whole picture.


Edited by TurnOffTheLights, 02 August 2015 - 14:28.


#45 ch103

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:27

Frankly I am surprised anyone is questioning anything about Vettel.  Like him or not, he won 4 WDC.  That does not happen by accident.  So to me, the only question is why even ask questions about him?  The man delivers when he has the car, period.



#46 CurbPainter

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:32

Frankly I am surprised anyone is questioning anything about Vettel.  Like him or not, he won 4 WDC.  That does not happen by accident.  So to me, the only question is why even ask questions about him?  The man delivers when he has the car, period.

 

Because it's no question he's good, the question is simply how good ?



#47 ch103

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:34

Because it's no question he's good, the question is simply how good ?

 

Ok, in that case, I think anyone's "all time" rankings are going to be purely subjective.  For me, I'll say that Michael Schumacher is the greatest of all time, simply because he is my favorite driver.  And so on, and so on and so on...



#48 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 14:35

Either a driver thread or a bash thread. No value either way. Locked.