86 replies to this topic

[sabjit]

If it means that Ferrari constantly get a better start than the Merc then yes, it will have an effect on the championship.

 

Vettel is only 42 points behind Hamilton. A couple more races like Hungary and there might even be a race on for the WDC.

 

 

Unfortunately for Ferrari the rest of the circuits are relatively easy for DRS passes and without Malaysia level temperatures they will be powerless to keep them behind.

 

Add to that I don't see the evidence that this will suit Ferrari more than Merc. In fact because Merc keep ballsing up their RS modes they have started the last couple of races manually anyway

[TheRacingElf]

First of all I don't understand those mid-season changes, but I can understand that they want the starts to become more down to the drivers once again. Unfortunately this regulation change is once again a half-arsed change, they still have those two paddles and all the bite point maps, they only aren't allowed to change this mapping on their way to the grid. It's still an automated start..

 

They should have just let it the way it was for the rest of the season and make more dramatic changes for 2016. I would like to see them have just 1 clutch paddle and them having to find the bite point themselves on release, just as you and I launch our streetcars off the line

[goingthedistance]

Karun Chandhok tried to give a 'simplified' version of the changes on the F1 show last night. Instead of the engineers seeing the data from the 3 bite-point finds the drivers do, the practice start from the pit-lane and then the practice start on the parade lap, which they use to select which pre-set start map the drivers can use, the drivers will have to chose that map themselves, based on what happens on the practice start on the parade lap. They can chat with the engineer on the grid before hand about what to do should this or that happen with the practice start but nothing can be said over the radio.
 
I have to admit that was not at all the way I read the new rules, as I figured they had to select the start map on the Saturday and wouldn't be able to change it on Sunday but it sounds like the drivers will have to work out which map will suit the unchangeable clutch bite-point from their practice start? I guess we will find out more next week.

But today we have Max confirming it as we thought (the engineers decide on Saturday):

Max Verstappen has delivered a sobering message for those expecting drivers to have more control over their race starts at Spa.

The FIA's clampdown on automated starts guided and perfected by engineers on the radio begins this weekend in Belgium.

"We now have to have all the settings for race day ready on Saturday as we are not allowed to change them on Sunday," confirmed Toro Rosso rookie Verstappen.

"Before, we were able to change the clutch, its bite point and the torque on the starting grid, but that's not allowed anymore," the young Dutchman told his website. "It means you're more dependent on your team.

"Only if you have the right setup will you be able to have a good start. It means we'll see bigger differences between good and bad starts," predicted Verstappen."

http://www.gptoday.c...endent_on_team/

[Marklar]

But today we have Max confirming it as we thought (the engineers decide on Saturday):

Max Verstappen has delivered a sobering message for those expecting drivers to have more control over their race starts at Spa.

The FIA's clampdown on automated starts guided and perfected by engineers on the radio begins this weekend in Belgium.

"We now have to have all the settings for race day ready on Saturday as we are not allowed to change them on Sunday," confirmed Toro Rosso rookie Verstappen.

"Before, we were able to change the clutch, its bite point and the torque on the starting grid, but that's not allowed anymore," the young Dutchman told his website. "It means you're more dependent on your team.

"Only if you have the right setup will you be able to have a good start. It means we'll see bigger differences between good and bad starts," predicted Verstappen."

http://www.gptoday.c...endent_on_team/

Great    I cant understand that. Why they just cant get a rid of all the software bullsh**, install a normal clutch and than let the drivers start by themselves. They screwed it up - again.

 

But at least we will see differences between the drivers with the same settings: the formation lap with heating up the tyres for example would be the key than and of course the start. But just with the same settings - which we will likely never have.....

Edited by Marklar, 18 August 2015 - 10:46.

[OO7]

Great    I cant understand that. Why they just cant get a rid of all the software bullsh**, install a normal clutch and than let the drivers start by themselves. They screwed it up - again.

 

But at least we will see differences between the drivers with the same settings: the formation lap with heating up the tyres for example would be the key than and of course the start. But just with the same settings - which we will likely never have.....

That's what happens when decisions are unnecessarily rushed.  The new regulation should have been delayed until 2016 and been more stringent.  It would allow engineers to redesign the clutches and subsequent procedures that are meant specifically for manual starts.

[Seanspeed]

"It means you're more dependent on your team."

Right.

This isn't about giving more control to the drivers. This is about trying to create a wilder start situation with more variation in good and bad starts. So people saying they should have waited to introduce this til next year are missing the point. Give the engineers a bunch of time and they'll get a handle on this and the desired effect will be reduced. Prior to the past couple races, there'd been a lot of criticism on how boring this season had been, so they were eager to try and do something about it *this year*. Silverstone and Hungary certainly have proved that bigger differences in starts can make things more interesting, so I'm sure they feel quite comfortable in bringing this in now, more than ever.

I don't like mid-season rule changes either, but I can totally understand the thinking behind it.

EDIT: And thank you for starting this thread aramos. I had asked what a 'manual start' meant a while back and didn't really get any answer.

Edited by Seanspeed, 18 August 2015 - 13:07.

[MasterOfCoin]

This isn't about giving more control to the drivers. This is about trying to create a wilder start situation with more variation in good and bad starts. So people saying they should have waited to introduce this til next year are missing the point. Give the engineers a bunch of time and they'll get a handle on this and the desired effect will be reduced. Prior to the past couple races, there'd been a lot of criticism on how boring this season had been, so they were eager to try and do something about it *this year*. 

I'm always amazed how these things happen, for years now we've had these starting procedures with drivers and engineers discussing their start map strategies, and it was perfectly fine, now all of a sudden there's a big fuss, am i missing something or is the FIA trying to manufacture some fake entertainment to satisfy vocal fans. when we already have inconsistent starts up and down the grid.

[Seanspeed]

I'm always amazed how these things happen, for years now we've had these starting procedures with drivers and engineers discussing their start map strategies, and it was perfectly fine, now all of a sudden there's a big fuss, am i missing something or is the FIA trying to manufacture some fake entertainment to satisfy vocal fans. when we already have inconsistent starts up and down the grid.

I mean, I explained it all in my post. Yes, the FIA is trying to make the races more interesting with this. It's not about satisfying vocal fans. Quite the opposite. Vocal fans tend to be the ones always clamoring for 'the good old days'. They are reacting to declining viewers and the general ho-hum races that we'd had all season prior to Silverstone.

[BillBald]

I frankly can't see how they can set the bite point on Saturday with any confidence. If there is more than a slight change in track conditions, they will be screwed.

 

I still think the best solution will be to set the first paddle to engage the clutch fully, so the driver will be completely in control, in other words a fully manual start. The engineers will be reluctant to adopt this solution (because they always think they can get an edge with technology), but I think they will be forced to after a couple of really bad getaways.

[Seanspeed]

I frankly can't see how they can set the bite point on Saturday with any confidence. If there is more than a slight change in track conditions, they will be screwed.
 
I still think the best solution will be to set the first paddle to engage the clutch fully, so the driver will be completely in control, in other words a fully manual start. The engineers will be reluctant to adopt this solution (because they always think they can get an edge with technology), but I think they will be forced to after a couple of really bad getaways.

I guess it depends on how bad the getaways would be if they set it up wrong on a Saturday. Or rather, is the occasional bad getaway from a bad bite point really the lesser of evils compared to letting the drivers do it all by feel?

I expect a lot of practice starts on Friday...

[crespo]

Sounds good to me!

Until it happens to *yourfavoritedriverhere*, then the pitchforks come out in full force 

[Marklar]

I guess it depends on how bad the getaways would be if they set it up wrong on a Saturday. Or rather, is the occasional bad getaway from a bad bite point really the lesser of evils compared to letting the drivers do it all by feel?

I expect a lot of practice starts on Friday...

Maybe Im totally wrong but I think that this is not allowed in Spa (at some tracks it is too dangerous to make practice starts). And I also think that practice starts are generally not allowed anymore, but maybe Im wrong. In any case they will likely try to make practice starts from the their boxes like they usually do if pit lane practice starts are not allowed.

Edited by Marklar, 18 August 2015 - 15:16.

[MasterOfCoin]

I mean, I explained it all in my post. Yes, the FIA is trying to make the races more interesting with this. It's not about satisfying vocal fans. Quite the opposite. Vocal fans tend to be the ones always clamoring for 'the good old days'. They are reacting to declining viewers and the general ho-hum races that we'd had all season prior to Silverstone.

I take issue with them trying to make the races more interesting in the middle of the season, because of declining viewers and ho-hum races, first it was the blown exhaust , then the Frics system, now the manual starts,  it leaves me wondering how much in season meddling is acceptable.

[Seanspeed]

I take issue with them trying to make the races more interesting in the middle of the season, because of declining viewers and ho-hum races, first it was the blown exhaust , then the Frics system, now the manual starts,  it leaves me wondering how much in season meddling is acceptable.

Yea sure. I'm mostly against mid-season changes, too. But my reasoning for that is usually because technical regulations mid-season often have the effect of compromising or benefitting certain cars/teams. That probably isn't too much of an issue here. The cars still all have the same start systems as before, so nothing has changed on the cars, necessarily.

But I suppose if one team was especially good at analyzing the data and configuring an optimal bite point for race starts, they might suddenly lose that advantage. I haven't necessarily noticed any big trends with that, though. Ferrari have typically been good off-the-line the past few years, so maybe them? Mercedes have been bad the past two races, so maybe they'll benefit? I don't know.

I kinda agree with you that I don't like midseason changes, but the changes would have less of an effect if we waited til next year. So I'm at least interested in seeing how it plays out. Between the tires and DRS, if a car has pace, they should still be able to make their way back forward at tracks that aren't Monaco or Hungary, so I'm not sure it'll have a dramatic effect on the final results of races, but it could make the journey of getting there a bit more interesting.

I don't know. We'll see. It may turn out to be something that doesn't make much of a difference at all, especially with everyone on equal footing.

[Wally123]

How can they get away with all these mid-season changes? Surely the teams have a right to protest?

[MasterOfCoin]

How can they get away with all these mid-season changes? Surely the teams have a right to protest?

They're so many rules in F1 right now, there's probably a rule not to protest a rule. lol

[Wally123]

It stinks though, why do it? Just look at the starts we've had these last few races, no meddling needed.

[Oho]

How can they get away with all these mid-season changes? Surely the teams have a right to protest?

 

They are not rule changes per say, they are 'reinterpretations' or 'clarifications' which of course in real terms amount to the same thing. Its FIA's method of choice for pushing an agenda what ever it might be regardless of contractual obligations.

[CHIUNDA]

Karun Chandhok tried to give a 'simplified' version of the changes on the F1 show last night. Instead of the engineers seeing the data from the 3 bite-point finds the drivers do, the practice start from the pit-lane and then the practice start on the parade lap, which they use to select which pre-set start map the drivers can use, the drivers will have to chose that map themselves, based on what happens on the practice start on the parade lap. They can chat with the engineer on the grid before hand about what to do should this or that happen with the practice start but nothing can be said over the radio.

 

I have to admit that was not at all the way I read the new rules, as I figured they had to select the start map on the Saturday and wouldn't be able to change it on Sunday but it sounds like the drivers will have to work out which map will suit the unchangeable clutch bite-point from their practice start? I guess we will find out more next week.

 

According to Karun, the drivers that have a superior understanding of the technical bits about the clutch etc will have an advantage? Professor Nico Rosberg must be very happy indeed.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 19 August 2015 - 08:35.

[CHIUNDA]

But today we have Max confirming it as we thought (the engineers decide on Saturday):

Max Verstappen has delivered a sobering message for those expecting drivers to have more control over their race starts at Spa.

The FIA's clampdown on automated starts guided and perfected by engineers on the radio begins this weekend in Belgium.

"We now have to have all the settings for race day ready on Saturday as we are not allowed to change them on Sunday," confirmed Toro Rosso rookie Verstappen.

"Before, we were able to change the clutch, its bite point and the torque on the starting grid, but that's not allowed anymore," the young Dutchman told his website. "It means you're more dependent on your team.

"Only if you have the right setup will you be able to have a good start. It means we'll see bigger differences between good and bad starts," predicted Verstappen."

http://www.gptoday.c...endent_on_team/

 

From what I have read, it would be practically impossible for any driver to get the correct bite point and have a good start under this scenario, no?   In which case, Lewis and Toto have a point when they expect tweaks to the start rules.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 19 August 2015 - 08:42.

[ANF]

According to Karun, the drivers that have a superior understanding of the technical bits about the clutch etc will have an advantage? Professor Nico Rosberg must be very happy indeed.

I think il signor Vettel and his ragazzi may be even happier.

[Marklar]

Is any driver on the grid good in gambling (eg poker)? I think these guys will like it. Its a lottery, more than before.

According to Karun, the drivers that have a superior understanding of the technical bits about the clutch etc will have an advantage? Professor Nico Rosberg must be very happy indeed.

Yeah, like with the previous rule changes

[chipmcdonald]

I'm for them doing something NOW for a change, instead of thumb twiddling.  It's what F1 needs.  I'm tired of hearing about how F1 has the greatest engineers, but somehow have to be given multiple years in order to change something.

 

The only caveat being they should restart the race if someone doesn't get away, due to the new rule.  Because ultimately, it's quite likely.

[RubalSher]

I would love to see the reaction on in here if the Mercs get mighty starts for a snooze fest 1-2 and the Ferraris get mobbed and finish way down.

 

Everyone seems optimistic that this will bring more misery to Merc but from what I understand, it will be a lottery and Ferrari and Williams would end up on the losing side since they have been having mighty starts for years now.

[Juan Kerr]

As usual the most annoying thing this weekend will be when someone has a good start and someone else has a bad start...people like David Croft and Martin Brundle will put it all down to the new rules when in fact it might be nothing to do with it. Drivers/teams can still fluff their starts or get one hooked up perfectly regardless of the changes.

[Jon83]

Maybe Im totally wrong but I think that this is not allowed in Spa (at some tracks it is too dangerous to make practice starts). And I also think that practice starts are generally not allowed anymore, but maybe Im wrong. In any case they will likely try to make practice starts from the their boxes like they usually do if pit lane practice starts are not allowed.

 

I think they are still allowed at the end of most pitlanes.

 

At circuits like Spa, I didn't think you saw them as much because the exit of the pitlane is downhill, so not really much use? I could be very wrong about that though. 

[Marklar]

Symonds: F1 start changes "won't make much difference"

 

 

I don't think it will make much difference. People believe that we make vast changes, but we don't, we make tiny changes. And sometimes those changes can be incorrect. Engineers can make mistakes – although it's bloody rare, I do agree! You set things up, you apply your clutch model depending on how you expect the grip to change, what your fuel load is, what tyre you're on, etc, and you set your clutch accordingly.

 

Up until now you did a launch off the dummy grid at the start of the formation lap. You made an assessment from that, because that was your most realistic launch, and the control engineer advised if he thought a clutch adjustment was needed, based on that.

 

As from Spa, he can't make that judgement, and the driver can't alter the settings. You know what to do to get to the correct temperature, you've just got to follow procedures. Everything is procedural. It's just like your tyre temperatures. You know what tyre temperatures you want, you know what to do to get to them. Drivers do burnouts to get the right surface temperatures. You know what to do. It helps if you've got an engineer advising you, but if you haven't, you just have to remember.

http://www.motorspor...much-difference

Edited by Marklar, 20 August 2015 - 03:45.

[BullHead]

Some say one thing, some say the opposite, we'll only know when we see. I can't imagine seeing a great difference, just more of a mix up in good / bad starts at each grand prix.

[totgate]

Oh my god, the current cars in F1 sucks so much. If such a small thing like not have the engineers do the clutch settings from the pits can start such a huge whining circus among the teams something is seriously wrong with the current regulations. I really wish that the current F1 goes KABOOM and implodes so a new and uncomplicated set of rules can be applied. I want wide screaming cars that goes like hell with the drivers in complete control of everything and without radios so the driver must manage his race by himself. Engines where the builders can decide of layout and number of cylinders, maximum revs and so on. The cars and regulations are so hideous and stupid that they don't deserve to survive. I'm so sad to see something that i have loved for over forty years be so totally destroyed by a bunch greedy idiots... :-(

[Rhardrks]

James Allen suggests the engineers will get around this easily using a time delayed setting to set their own point finder activation before the start, as it is hard to police. Just emphasizes how the drivers performance is minuscule to the results compared to the car and engineers.

Edited by Rhardrks, 20 August 2015 - 12:41.

[scheivlak]

Mark Webber's view - who had some pretty dismal starts at Spa: http://www.theguardi...start-procedure

[Wuzak]

Great    I cant understand that. Why they just cant get a rid of all the software bullsh**, install a normal clutch and than let the drivers start by themselves. They screwed it up - again.

 

But at least we will see differences between the drivers with the same settings: the formation lap with heating up the tyres for example would be the key than and of course the start. But just with the same settings - which we will likely never have.....

 

Really, if you took time to think about what they are doing mid season you would realise it is impractical to do much more.

 

For 2016 They will only be allowed to use 1 paddle for starting, even though 2 may be installed.

 

The way the current system works is that the clutch bite point is found. One paddle is then released which brings the clutch up to that bite point. When the lights go out the second paddle is released, which fully engages the clutch and launches the car.

 

The launch is not controlled by software. If the right rpm isn't used you could have wheelspin or bog down and have a slow get away.

[Jordan44]

As usual the most annoying thing this weekend will be when someone has a good start and someone else has a bad start...people like David Croft and Martin Brundle will put it all down to the new rules when in fact it might be nothing to do with it. Drivers/teams can still fluff their starts or get one hooked up perfectly regardless of the changes.

 

Martin Brundle said he anticipates the new start regulations wont have much of an effect.

[ArchieTech]

James Allen suggests the engineers will get around this easily using a time delayed setting to set their own point finder activation before the start, as it is hard to police. Just emphasizes how the drivers performance is minuscule to the results compared to the car and engineers.

 

And risk getting thrown out of the championship for cheating? That's quite a gamble to take.

[rasul]

Symonds: F1 start changes "won't make much difference"
As from Spa, he can't make that judgement, and the driver can't alter the settings.

What the hell. According to James Allison, drivers can change settings on their own:

All that's changed is that now we're not allowed to advise or make any adjustments to that biting point between when the car's on the grid preparing for the start of the race and when the driver actually does it so the parade lap start and the real start is done all by the driver and if he thinks it's not closed enough or too open, he has to make his own judgement about that and make the calls. We can be sitting in the garage going 'no, don't do that' but we don't have any power to stop him.

Who's right?

Edited by rasul, 21 August 2015 - 17:23.

[Marklar]

They can change settings I think but not the bite point

[Marklar]

According to AMuS the teams were crying over the manual starts and bombading Whiting with questions. So Whiting gave up and allowed the teams to give the drivers instructions via the team radio for the start up until one minute before the race start (formation lap). The only exception was the tyre and clutch temperature - which is not even on the display allowed.

 

https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

Edited by Marklar, 25 August 2015 - 13:19.