33 replies to this topic

[KBY191]

I am trying to properly document the history of my ex Holden Dealer Racing Team HK 327 Monaro.

Former owner Denis Geary recalls running the car at Oran Park, possibly May 1969. However I have not been able to confirm

this one way or another. The car was white and running either Series Production or Improved Production (probably the latter)

Is anyone able to check their Oran Park programmes for me?

Thanks Tim

[GMACKIE]

Hope this helps, Tim :-

 

Oran Park 20th April, 1969 - Events 11, 15, and 21,  Improved Production Touring.

 

No. 2    Denis Geary Motors / Denis Geary    Holden   5358cc    White

 

Cheers,       Greg

[GMACKIE]

Found another...Bathurst, 7th April, 1969.

 

No.17   Holden Monaro 327   5359cc     White

 

Note the 'bigger' engine !

[KBY191]

Fabulous Greg! The April Oran Park meeting l didn't know about.

The Bathurst meeting you mentioned saw the tragic death of Bevan Gibson.

Denis practiced both the Monaro and his Lola, but did not compete beyond that.

Your input is definitely much appreciated.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by GMACKIE
Found another...Bathurst, 7th April, 1969.
 
No.17   Holden Monaro 327   5359cc     White
 
Note the 'bigger' engine !

Problems in practice and didn't race...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by GMACKIE
Hope this helps, Tim :-
 
Oran Park 20th April, 1969 - Events 11, 15, and 21,  Improved Production Touring.
 
No. 2    Denis Geary Motors / Denis Geary    Holden   5358cc    White

I don't believe he ran at this one either...

No mention whatever in the race report.



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Edited by Ray Bell, 11 August 2015 - 12:21.

[GMACKIE]

Ray, please read Tim's original post carefully.

 

As requested, I read my Oran Park programme, and that is what I quoted.

 

Why do you feeled compelled to cast doubt on everything ?

[GMACKIE]

Fabulous Greg! The April Oran Park meeting l didn't know about.

The Bathurst meeting you mentioned saw the tragic death of Bevan Gibson.

Denis practiced both the Monaro and his Lola, but did not compete beyond that.

Your input is definitely much appreciated.

You are welcome, Tim.

 

As I was driving my Elfin Vee at those two meetings, it was difficult to watch the other races.

 

I did watch the Matich/Gibson race, where Bevan was sadly killed. It is something I will never forget, as we were watching from the Pit fence, quite close to Con-Rod straight.

[KBY191]

Denis Geary told me that he broke the gear shift in the Lola in practice at the Bathurst meeting, but there are photos of the Monaro running during practice.

Unsurprisingly there is no mention of Denis in Peter Wherrett's report for RCN.

Denis said he ran the Monaro at Oran Park and we thought we had the date nailed as May 69, although Greg's information indicates April 69.

Perhaps again the Monaro ran in practice and not in the races, hence no mention in race reports?? More digging required!

I appreciate everyone's contribution.

Thanks Tim 

[Ray Bell]

John Medley's Bathurst book mentions Geary...

It states:

.....Denis Geary's Monaro was unwell (129.40mph) so Geary took it and the Lola T70 home.....

AMS had no report on the '68 event, RCN reported top speeds in the 128-129mph range for these cars in October, so it would be interesting to know where John's information came from and whether the reference to the speed had any bearing other than that it was a speed recorded in practice and needed to be included.

My supposition, pure supposition, is that he had trouble with the Monaro at Bathurst, took it home and it wasn't ready again for Oran Park. Nor did he run at the (local to him) Surfers meeting in the same period.

[KBY191]

Ray your thought provoking comments caused me to revisit the information l had.

I have had confirmed by both Denis and his mechanic Barry that the retirement from the Bathurst meeting was due to a broken gear shifter in the Lola. The Monaro was undamaged.

A reported speed of 129.4 mph was better than any Monaro at the 500 in October, particularly when we discount West's speed based upon his subsequent disqualification.

Barry also was most definite in stating that the car ran at Oran Park, confirming Denis' recollection.

I have seen John Medley's book and you have now whetted my interest in obtaining a copy. 

[Ray Bell]

Yes, and John's book records that Nick Petrilli did 131-point-something at the Easter Bathurst...

I checked the next Oran Park meeting report as well (it's actually in the same issue) and again no mention of the Geary Monaro.
 

Originally posted by Greg Mackie
.....Why do you feel compelled to cast doubt on everything?

I don't, Greg...

Tim wants to know where the car ran. This car should have been mentioned in reports of any Series Production race in that era if it was there. I'm just giving information (and opinion) that might get the record straight.

He entered, I feel sure he didn't turn up at that Oran Park.



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Edited by Ray Bell, 13 August 2015 - 03:13.

[Lee Nicolle]

Ray your thought provoking comments caused me to revisit the information l had.

I have had confirmed by both Denis and his mechanic Barry that the retirement from the Bathurst meeting was due to a broken gear shifter in the Lola. The Monaro was undamaged.

A reported speed of 129.4 mph was better than any Monaro at the 500 in October, particularly when we discount West's speed based upon his subsequent disqualification.

Barry also was most definite in stating that the car ran at Oran Park, confirming Denis' recollection.

I have seen John Medley's book and you have now whetted my interest in obtaining a copy. 

What is scarey is that a HQ does similar speeds down conrod these days. They enter a good deal faster with better track and bigger tyres.

It would be interesting to see what a HK 327 would do now on the current version of the track,, and modern tyres.. And modern brake pads. 

[Ray Bell]

I found something today when I was going through all the Oran Park reports for '69...

On page 9 of the June issue there's a Denis Geary Motors advertisement, a full page. He has for sale:

The Lola T70 - $12,500 with the extra wheels and spares.

His Ford F500 transporter - $1,500 with carrying capacity for two cars, tool boxes etc.

Assorted wheels and tyres for a multitude of cars.

Hot up bits for Monaro 327 - blocks, heads, pistons rods, cranks, suspension bits, camshafts, 58mm Weber side-draught carbies and manifold, oil cooler, extractors, harness and roll bar.

I had forgotten that he moved his business to Sydney for a while and this is where he was at that time.

Maybe the Monaro was already sold? This ad would have been placed by about May 15, 1969.

[275 GTB-4]

Yes, and John's book records that Nick Petrilli did 131-point-something at the Easter Bathurst...

I checked the next Oran Park meeting report as well (it's actually in the same issue) and again no mention of the Geary Monaro.
 

I don't, Greg...

Tim wants to know where the car ran. This car should have been mentioned in reports of any Series Production race in that era if it was there. I'm just giving information (and opinion) that might get the record straight.

He entered, I feel sure he didn't turn up at that Oran Park.

Quoting RCN as an "authoritive" source whilst blindingly ignoring the omissions, mis-reporting and mistakes that that magazine was well known for is quite a leap of faith in 2015!

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 13 August 2015 - 11:45.

[Catalina Park]

Quoting RCN as an "authoritive" source whilst blindingly ignoring the omissions, mis-reporting and mistakes that that magazine was well known for is quite a leap of faith in 2015!

You need the result sheets, but then Oran Park result sheets were about as accurate as RCN.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Quoting RCN as an "authoritive" source whilst blindingly ignoring the omissions, mis-reporting and mistakes that that magazine was well known for is quite a leap of faith in 2015!

I'm not quite sure how to address this stupidity, Mick...

Sure, you can't ignore the fact that not every competitor gets mentioned in a race report, but "mis-reporting" was certainly not something for which RCN was known and I think you'll find that "mistakes" were remarkably few.

You will notice, however, that I stated above:

.....This car should have been mentioned in reports of any Series Production race in that era if it was there.....

What I meant by that is that a car of this ilk would have run in the first four or five at worst, especially with only two or three V8-engined cars running in those races at that time. Series Production at the time was the haven of the Minis and the odd Alfa, Monaros were just starting to make their presence felt on this kind of circuit.

Of course, if you read these reports you would understand what I'm saying. But you aren't reading the reports, are you?

DG is adamant that the car was at one of these meetings, his mechanic agrees with him. For sure, Gary Hodge was there at the April meeting in his Mini entered by Denis Geary Motors. He's not mentioned in the May meeting's report. Hodge was there again at the June meeting, no mention of Geary, neither are mentioned in any later reports that year. For the record, Hodge was there in the Lolita at the March meeting, again entered by DG Motors. No mention of the Monaro at any of these meetings.

Michael mentions the Oran Park result sheets, that is where the answers will be found. I don't think there are any more complete race reports on these meetings than RCN so that is all that remains. Apart from going through Lance Ruting's proofs of the meetings, if a car was there it's very likely it will be recorded on them if it made it to race day.

[275 GTB-4]

I'm not quite sure how to address this stupidity, Mick...

Sure, you can't ignore the fact that not every competitor gets mentioned in a race report, but "mis-reporting" was certainly not something for which RCN was known and I think you'll find that "mistakes" were remarkably few.

How rude you are getting in your old age Raymond. Calling people stupid is liable to do your dash in certain circles!

I often read RCN AFTER attending the meetings in the period...and whilst it was terrific to read the reports and relive the excitement the errors etc were an annoyance.  And furthermore, as you well know, I have posted many items from RCN in this place, so, whilst I generally only read magazines to look at the pictures. I also read the text as well!

 

RCN was a great little magazine, even with all its faults...why you (of all people) would want to defend it on its weakest attribute (errors etc) after all these years is beyond me. 

[Catalina Park]

I have the Lance J Ruting proofs for the 69 Oran Park meetings, I will see what I can find.

[GMACKIE]

C.P., while you are looking, any chance of keeping an eye out for Elfin Vee # 71 [red] ?

[KBY191]

 

I have the Lance J Ruting proofs for the 69 Oran Park meetings, I will see what I can find.

That would be great, l was still in primary school when all this stuff was going on!

Between race programmes, magazine reports, personal recollections and period photos l' m piecing it together but l'd be nowhere without the input received on the Forum.

Oran Park is the only circuit where l don't have photos of the car competing. But based on input from Denis and Barry who were there and Greg's programmes the balance of probabilities are that it at least practiced at Oran Park.

Many thanks guys.

Edited by KBY191, 15 August 2015 - 01:20.

[Catalina Park]

Looking at the proofs and the only shots of a white (or very light coloured) Monaro that I can find are... 

10/8/69. It looks like an Improved Production car with wider wheels and brake scoops, running car number 61.
20/9/69. Can't see the number. Looks like practice.

 

Still looking....

[KBY191]

 

Denis Geary at Warwick Farm April 69 sporting a handsome pair of brake ducts. Maybe your pictures are the same car??

In improved production guise the car was white with side pipes, mag wheels and the brake ducts.

The roll over hoop and location of the bonnet straps are identifying features which the car retained from its days with Scuderia Veloce through to its retirement from the track.

Thank you for following this up.

Edited by KBY191, 15 August 2015 - 04:23.

[Catalina Park]

Sorry, it looks like it isn't that car. 



Copyright Autopics

Edited by Catalina Park, 15 August 2015 - 05:28.

[KBY191]

Thank you for your effort, but l have to agree, that car is not Geary's ex HDRT Monaro.

[Catalina Park]

I haven't found any in the Oran Park proofs but I did find another Warwick Farm shot similar to your photo above but without the Mini from that same race.

Greg, I have had a little look but nothing has turned up yet but I did find a nice shot of my MJM Vee.

[Ray Bell]

Thank you, Michael...

Lance generally boasted that he got a pic of every car at each race meeting. That might not be altogether true, but there being none of this car (assuming that you have the proofs from the April and May meetings) is certainly strong circumstantial evidence that it didn't race at these meetings.

Once again, the car not being mentioned once in the RCN race reports backs this up. I trust I won't get howled down again for making this statement. I can't think of any other magazine which would have reported these races, certainly not in full.

I'm away from home at the moment so I can't check, but there was a night meeting in March, I believe, and the car was not mentioned at that one either. Denis would certainly remember if he ran at a night meeting, though if he only ran in the daylight he might not remember it as a night meeting. What about entries at these meetings, Greg, do you have these programmes?

The other curious thing is about that ad in RCN. It contains items which indicate that Denis was contemplating either converting this car or building another similar car for Improved Production. If it was this car, that would certainly have changed the course of its history and it would never have been the same again!

One wonders, also, whether the crossover manifolds and 58mm carbies became the ones Beechey later used, though he may have had some already for either the Chevy II or the Camaro.

You cannot dispute the recollections, Tim, especially as they came from two people. But preparing the car and taking it to Oran Park and participating in practice might be enough of a memory. My suspicion is that this is as far as it got. I can't say that with certainty, of course, but the photographic and printed trail ends with the entry... relying on the best sources we have at hand.

Finding someone with the results of the meetings might be more than a trifle difficult, but that's where you'd have to go to do better.

[Catalina Park]

I did look at the March meeting, I will have another look just in case.

The car was being raced in Improved Production at Warwick Farm in April. I don't think it would have been changed back to Series Production after that but it depends on the changes. It would attract a lot of attention in the scrutineering bay at the next meeting if it was changed back.

[KBY191]

I think Ray you could be right, the explanation may be that it was only in practice.  The recollection of both Denis and Barry can't be ignored but it is a long time ago.

I don't want to rewrite history, l just want the facts and we are slowly getting there.

 

I agree too, its unlikely to have swapped between the two production categories. I am mindful that the car was sold as a used car on Paramtta Road after

its racing days, so whatever modifications were made were neither drastic nor irreversible.  Therein lies one of the great attractions of owning the car, l don't need a race track

to take it for a drive!

[Catalina Park]

C.P., while you are looking, any chance of keeping an eye out for Elfin Vee # 71 [red] ?

What did you do to upset Lance?

[GMACKIE]

Perhaps I accidently let is slip I didn't particularly like bantam chooks ?

[Catalina Park]

I'm still looking. I'm finding more photos of my car so it isn't a total loss.

[cooper997]

I fully appreciate this is about Tim's quest to document one Monaro, but would it be of more worth for everybody down the track to try to document this car and the other team cars as well under one thread? I'm losing track of how many threads are within TNF now relating back to Tim's quest. Seems easy in the moment of creating a new thread each time, but for future TNF searches it would be a lot easier to find one Holden Dealer Racing Team Monaros thread each time relevant subject matter is raised.

There's photo reference here to April 69 Warwick Farm, if the Monaro ran at an open meeting it's likely to be 4/5/69.

Also could be worth noting the known events this car ran at, I spotted reference to Denis in a Monaro at the Jan 69 Surfers Paradise meeting last night. But don't know whether that's already on the radar.

Stephen

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that's the 12-hour, Tim is aware of that one...

And also the December Oran Park, it ran there in a night meeting.

As for swapping between categories, it's quite likely that those brake scoops were the only thing changed. The Monaro's brakes were pretty marginal for racing and that would have helped the non-vented discs along.




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Edited by Ray Bell, 16 August 2015 - 11:09.