116 replies to this topic

[PCC]

Nelson clearly made a conscious decision to go deeper into the corner...

I fear that young fans of the modern sport don't realize that once upon a time overtaking was done not by pushing a button, but by digging deep, changing your braking point, and trusting your reflexes.

[kayemod]

This thread was originally in Racing Comments, and that's exactly the attitude that seems to exist in the minds of many. I try to beat the Moss drum as loudly as possible at every opportunity, but it's hard going at times!

 

I knew that as soon as I saw it.

 

All anyone needs to know about Sir Stirling is that he drove in 585 motorsport events, finished in 387 of them and won 216. He started 66 World Championship Grands Prix, of which he won 16, often in cars which were some way short of the best, and he also started from pole on 16 occasions. He was never World Champion, nobody seemed to place much importance on that back then, not like today's fans and the media, but he was runner-up four times and finished third three times. He also raced in many different categories, and his win in the 1955 Mille Miglia has rightly gone down in history as just about the greatest motor racing achievement of all time, and that's true greatness.

 

Some on here will dismiss all this as old-farty stuff, living in the past, and in a sense they're right, but it's all part of the history of the sport. It's heart warming to witness the awe in which The Great Man is held at events like the Goodwood FoS, there's a spontaneous round of applause, some of it from people young enough to be his great grandchildren when this wonderful old man does a fairly leisurely drive-past in something like a Mercedes W196 or the Ferguson.

 

You're far from alone E.B. but I guess not on Racing Comments, where only the last few years of 'Effwun' are of any real significance, it's a shame that we can't send this sad thread back to them.

[B Squared]

He was never World Champion, nobody seemed to place much importance on that back then...

 

 

Then why did newspaper articles, books and annuals single out those who DID win it?

[kayemod]

Then why did newspaper articles, books and annuals single out those who DID win it?

 

Simply not true, massive media coverage is a relatively recent phenomenon. We're talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s etc, you'd have to search long and hard to find print mentions of motor racing back then, outside specialist magazines like Autosport. There really wasn't a great deal of media interest, nothing like today, when papers get excited by the latest Hamilton hairstyle. On the Sunday of an F1 race, it often didn't rate even a brief mention on radio or TV news, many times I've had to search the results section on the inside back page of a national newspapers next day to discover who'd won, luckily I'd just started doing a paper round, so it was easier for me than most, and TV coverage? Very little and brief if anything at all. A few minutes of week-late highlights on the next Saturday afternoon's general sports programme if we were lucky, slotted in between football and horse racing, yes things really were that bad. Names like Moss, Hawthorn, Clark etc were generally well known of course, but we didn't see very much coverage of them in action. Things did improve in the 70s, largely because more UK drivers were involved, but I think that the first time the BBC showed most of a race, and not live at that, was the Japanese GP in 76 when James Hunt became champion and a National Hero at the same time, just about the first time I can remember that happening, but certainly there was very little of the silly fanboy nonsense we're inundated with today.

[B Squared]

Simply not true, massive media coverage is a relatively recent phenomenon. We're talking about the 50s, 60s, 70s etc, you'd have to search long and hard to find print mentions of motor racing back then, outside specialist magazines like Autosport. There really wasn't a great deal of media interest, nothing like today, when papers get excited by the latest Hamilton hairstyle. On the Sunday of an F1 race, it often didn't rate even a brief mention on radio or TV news, many times I've had to search the results section on the inside back page of a national newspapers next day to discover who'd won, luckily I'd just started doing a paper round, so it was easier for me than most, and TV coverage? Very little and brief if anything at all. A few minutes of week-late highlights on the next Saturday afternoon's general sports programme if we were lucky, slotted in between football and horse racing, yes things really were that bad. Names like Moss, Hawthorn, Clark etc were generally well known of course, but we didn't see very much coverage of them in action. Things did improve in the 70s, largely because more UK drivers were involved, but I think that the first time the BBC showed most of a race, and not live at that, was the Japanese GP in 76 when James Hunt became champion and a National Hero at the same time, just about the first time I can remember that happening, but certainly there was very little of the silly fanboy nonsense we're inundated with today.

You originally said nobody placed much importance on being World Champion and I understand the limited mainstream press coverage of the day, but Automobile Year, Motorsport and Autosport (to name a few) seemed to recognize the achievement of being World Champion. In going through many years of Indianapolis Star and Indianapolis News newspapers from the late '50s and early '60s for a book project, I noticed Formula One was covered after each race, and the World Champions were definitely noted.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but how did Fangio become so revered for winning five World Driving Championships in this same era if no one placed importance on it? 

[jj2728]

Mansell, a problem for every solution. Only Nigel could have beaten Nigel in 1992. Still, one helluva a driver and very personable, at least those were my experiences the few times that I met and talked with him. I still have my Ferrari sweatshirt that he signed for me back in '93.

[kayemod]

You originally said nobody placed much importance on being World Champion and I understand the limited mainstream press coverage of the day, but Automobile Year, Motorsport and Autosport (to name a few) seemed to recognize the achievement of being World Champion. In going through many years of Indianapolis Star and Indianapolis News newspapers from the late '50s and early '60s for a book project, I noticed Formula One was covered after each race, and the World Champions were definitely noted.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but how did Fangio become so revered for winning five World Driving Championships in this same era if no one placed importance on it? 

 

Ok, switch "nobody" for "not many followers", really it just wasn't so important back then, remember that we had 7 or 8 races each year, not the current 20, it just wasn't a big thing, top drivers earned maybe £10,000 a year if they were lucky. I was still at school, but my few fellow F1 fans never obsessed about who had been, or was going to be WDC, honestly, it really wasn't a big deal back then, not at all like today. The publications you listed were mostly expensive, end of the year and limited circulation publications, and I was talking about national newspapers, which did a pretty good job of almost ignoring the sport altogether. Great man that he was, Fangio didn't get much popular press coverage when he was racing, not in the UK at any rate. Noisy and blinkered Effwun fandom of the kind that fills Racing Comments is a relatively recent phenomenon.

[B Squared]

Thanks for the explanation, I've only seen it from the U.S. side of things in that era just a few years before I started following the sport. I do know that in talking with Michael Argetsinger; his family, through their efforts in bringing Formula One to Watkins Glen in 1961, were disappointed that the new World Driving Champion (albeit, he was a Yank), Phil Hill would not be able to race his Ferrari at the event. 

 

Also the Indianapolis papers articles were fed by a press service, so I would think that these international press outlets would have been available. Granted, the Indy newspapers used to cover Indy Car racing like they now do the Colts or Pacers, but it went far beyond only Indy Car. International F1 and Sports Cars were covered too, maybe I was lucky and spoiled in that respect. Thanks again and sorry for the deviation of the subject.  

Edited by B Squared, 18 August 2015 - 19:36.

[Allan Lupton]

Thanks again and sorry for the deviation of the subject.

As a bored bystander can I say thanks for the deviation.
So much less "RC" than the thread as a whole, and why was it wished on us in the first place?

[PCC]

I was still at school, but my few fellow F1 fans never obsessed about who had been, or was going to be WDC, honestly, it really wasn't a big deal back then, not at all like today.

By the time I started following the sport, in the very late '60s, I'd say the world title was a pretty big deal among followers of the sport (albeit not in the daily papers, which rarely reported on a race unless someone was killed). One thing that I sense has changed, though, is that back then it was possible to be acknowledged as a great driver without being a world champion. F1 was the top category, but it was just one of several on which a driver's reputation could be based.

[john aston]

The veneration of Sir Stirling is interesting and it seems to me to be a recent phenomenon. Maybe it was the new millennium which kick started society's obsession with the past? I remember seeing Stirling in the works Audi 80 at Mallory in 81 and to be brutally honest he was an old racing driver who used to be brilliant but who couldn't quite cut it any more. That's fine , no disrespect but no hero worship either, Fast forward 30 years and Sir S is now treated  as a near god - and the adulation applies to other figures who were near unkown 20 of years ago. Norman Dewis was unknown to anybody but hardcore Jagwah fans until recently  and  now you cannopt open an Octane or Classic and Sports Car without seeing yet another tribute . Most of us on here have loved racers and racing cars for decades but there is another growing demographic which has seized on to cars and people  from a racing past which I suspect few of them showed any interest in when it was contemporary .

[kayemod]

Thanks for the explanation, I've only seen it from the U.S. side of things in that era just a few years before I started following the sport. I do know that in talking with Michael Argetsinger; his family, through their efforts in bringing Formula One to Watkins Glen in 1961, were disappointed that the new World Driving Champion (albeit, he was a Yank), Phil Hill would not be able to race his Ferrari at the event. 

 

Also the Indianapolis papers articles were fed by a press service, so I would think that these international press outlets would have been available. Granted, the Indy newspapers used to cover Indy Car racing like they now do the Colts or Pacers, but it went far beyond only Indy Car. International F1 and Sports Cars were covered too, maybe I was lucky and spoiled in that respect. Thanks again and sorry for the deviation of the subject.  

 

No need to apologise, this deviation has been the best part of a turgid fart in a spacesuit thread, but this will surprise/astound B Squared. As a young teenager I knew little about the Indy 500, very little about oval racing in general, but Jack Brabham's valiant efforts in 1961 had aroused my interest. On the day of next year's race, I watched and listened in vain for any news, but nothing, not a single mention. I scoured my dad's Daily Telegraph next day for the result, but couldn't find anything there either. I skimmed the back pages of a couple more newspapers at my paper round employer's shop, but still not a word. I finally found out that the race had been won by Rodger Ward when dad's Motor Sport arrived, just two or three column inches if I remember correctly, and at least three weeks after the event, and the saddest thing of all? I'd never heard of Rodger Ward. "The Greatest Motor Race in the World"? Not in Great Meols by the sea it wasn't, in fact not in the UK in general, though when Colin Chapman and Lotus appeared on the Indy scene, things did improve for a year or two.

[AJCee]

This thread has tipped me over the edge from long-time lurking!  My heart sank initially reading it until it dawned that it was indeed the spawn of Racing Comments.  Kayemod, I can only wholeheartedly agree with you (post 102).  The world changes, and the advent of the internet has led to ‘everyone being an expert’ and every opinion being aired equally, no matter how well- or ill-informed.  The rise of the ‘fanboy’ is an inevitable consequence in an era when followers no longer have to wait until Autosport or Motoring News are published to find out what went on and Formula One (not motor racing as a sport per se) has developed to the massive level of media coverage that it has.  Sadly it brings the ‘my team/driver is better than yours’ knee-jerk and blinkered reactions that have previously ruined discussion of the likes of football.  In my teens I had favourite drivers, but not ‘villain’ drivers that I felt the need to denigrate: that’s particularly regrettable, I loved The Sport.  While I’m on a roll, all too many in Racing Comments appear to base their opinions of the past upon some rather simplistically compiled and analysed statistics that take little account of the many variables prevailing at the time.  Drivers from the past are all too commonly categorised along the lines of: Ayrton Senna = God, Gilles Villeneuve = demi God, Alain Prost = evil. . It makes me sigh.  My formative years were the mid seventies to early eighties, it is interesting that many of those who do not hold with the same view of Senna actually saw him racing and developing.  Likewise the way the skills (leaving personalities aside) of the likes of Nelson Piquet and Alan Jones are dismissed.  Maybe you had to be there at the time?

Enough OT rambling, Mansell 1992, I was never a particular fan and never ‘against’ him, but as someone else pointed out, probably only Nigel could have beaten himself that year but he deserved to be a World Champion.

Edited by AJCee, 19 August 2015 - 09:21.

[Alan Baker]

Ok, switch "nobody" for "not many followers", really it just wasn't so important back then, remember that we had 7 or 8 races each year, not the current 20, it just wasn't a big thing, top drivers earned maybe £10,000 a year if they were lucky. I was still at school, but my few fellow F1 fans never obsessed about who had been, or was going to be WDC, honestly, it really wasn't a big deal back then, not at all like today. The publications you listed were mostly expensive, end of the year and limited circulation publications, and I was talking about national newspapers, which did a pretty good job of almost ignoring the sport altogether. Great man that he was, Fangio didn't get much popular press coverage when he was racing, not in the UK at any rate. Noisy and blinkered Effwun fandom of the kind that fills Racing Comments is a relatively recent phenomenon.

There was more coverage in the press than you remember. There were numerous races sponsored by national newspapers in the late fifties/early sixties. Apart from the long standing Daily Express International Trophy at Silverstone, there were races sponsored by the Daily Mail, News of the World, Sunday Mirror etc. Most of the national dailies sent their Motoring Correspondents to the races, but the amount of space they were given in Monday's paper depended on how sensational events had been over the weekend. It is. of course, true that in those days their was no such thing as an "F1" fan, the term "Formula One" was hardly ever used (except in the Waddingtons board game!). You were a motor racing fan and there was no such thing as an "F1" driver, just racing drivers who could be seen driving in all kinds of cars in all kinds of races most weekends.

[bradbury west]

Rob, the modern generation will never understand the excitement we felt watching the 500  live via the Earlybird satellite beamed into various cinemas around the country. The sharp intake of breath and the immediate lighting of countless cigarettes as a reaction by the audience when JC had his tyre chunking problem is still clear in my mind.

These things are all relative to their moment in time, which brings us back to why Motor Sport magazine was so significant, as we have covered often in the past.

Roger Lund

[Henri Greuter]

Rob, the modern generation will never understand the excitement we felt watching the 500  live via the Earlybird satellite beamed into various cinemas around the country. The sharp intake of breath and the immediate lighting of countless cigarettes as a reaction by the audience when JC had his tyre chunking problem is still clear in my mind.

These things are all relative to their moment in time, which brings us back to why Motor Sport magazine was so significant, as we have covered often in the past.

Roger Lund

 

 

On an entirely different subject but still:

 

Those cinema `projections of the 500 , both in USA and Europe.  From a technical point of vieu I have always wondered how they did that! Did they have a then current version of the beamers we see nowadays that were strong enong to project a reasonable quality image of the size of those cinema screens at that time!

 

 

Apologies for derailing the thread....

 

 

Henri

[kayemod]

Rob, the modern generation will never understand the excitement we felt watching the 500  live via the Earlybird satellite beamed into various cinemas around the country. The sharp intake of breath and the immediate lighting of countless cigarettes as a reaction by the audience when JC had his tyre chunking problem is still clear in my mind.

These things are all relative to their moment in time, which brings us back to why Motor Sport magazine was so significant, as we have covered often in the past.

Roger Lund

 

I was there! I was there! Watching the 500 in a Manchester cinema, maybe 1970, and that sharp intake of breath, it was almost seismic. The moment I remember as if it were yesterday was Lloyd Ruby coming into the pits with fluids leaking from  the cam covers and everywhere else on his blown engine. He'd been leading the race not far from the finish, I'm sure he could almost taste the milk. As you say, a moment in time.