120 replies to this topic

[zeph]

But surely that carries enormous pressure for a rookie?

 

 

I don't think there was a lot of pressure on Hamilton, initially. After he started winning and leading the WDC, expectations and pressure increased, and it showed towards the end of the season. He really nailed it in the first nine races, he was still fast after that, but not as consistent.

 

But no, I don't think anybody ever entered F1 with more favorable conditions, even mentally.

 

Hamilton is a legend, and nothing anybody says can detract from his accomplishents, but it was tailwind all the way for him until 2011.

[Jovanotti]

Alonso impressed me more in '01. Consistently putting the evil handling Minardi ahead of Jags, Benetton, Arrows and Prosts. Kimi was solid, showed he deserved his place on the grid from day 1 but I never got the impression he was doing anything special.

That's with hindsight and your opinion. He was clearly something very special from the moment he stepped into an F1 car.

Edited by Jovanotti, 17 August 2015 - 18:45.

[P123]

I don't think there was a lot of pressure on Hamilton, initially. After he started winning and leading the WDC, expectations and pressure increased, and it showed towards the end of the season. He really nailed it in the first nine races, he was still fast after that, but not as consistent.
 
But no, I don't think anybody ever entered F1 with more favorable conditions, even mentally.
 
Hamilton is a legend, and nothing anybody says can detract from his accomplishents, but it was tailwind all the way for him until 2011.

I wouldn't go that far. JV for example had more testing, and sat in a car with a greater pace advantage over the rest of the field. And that also came without the politics, both external and internal, so labelling the mental aspect as 'favourable conditions' is questionable. If you mean preparedness, then he and McLaren nailed that to perfection. There were after all many questioning the wisdom of McLaren in signing a rookie and of Hamilton in signing up to be paired with Alonso. It may even have been better for Hamilton to have started in a lower rank team, and do his learning out of the spotlight.

[P123]

That's with hindsight and your opinion. He was clearly something very special from the moment he stepped into an F1 car.

Indeed, but it's an opinion formed back in '01.

[scheivlak]

Consistently putting the evil handling Minardi ahead of Jags, Benetton, Arrows and Prosts. 

 

It was a great season by Fernando but "consistently" putting the MInardi ahead of all of them is a bit over the top 

 

He e.g. never outqualified a Jaguar in the entire season nor beat them in any race and the Benettons only when they were possibly even more evil handling and power-limited than the Minardis. Beating an occasional Arrows, Prost or BAR every now and then is good enough in my book BTW.

 

As far as Kimi is concerned: just read a contemporary article (April 2001) like http://atlasf1.autos...w/collings.html where Frank Williams is quoted calling Kimi the newcomer who made the biggest impression so far - in a year when Montoya and Alonso also made their debut!

Edited by scheivlak, 17 August 2015 - 19:25.

[garoidb]

I wouldn't go that far. JV for example had more testing, and sat in a car with a greater pace advantage over the rest of the field. And that also came without the politics, both external and internal, so labelling the mental aspect as 'favourable conditions' is questionable. If you mean preparedness, then he and McLaren nailed that to perfection. There were after all many questioning the wisdom of McLaren in signing a rookie and of Hamilton in signing up to be paired with Alonso. It may even have been better for Hamilton to have started in a lower rank team, and do his learning out of the spotlight.

 

... thereby lowering expectations. It didn't really matter to McLaren if Lewis had a steady learning season, getting better as the year wore on and banking experience. He didn't start the year thinking about a championship challenge. 

 

JV had a similarly good first season, also in a top flight team. I think there was quite a lot of pressure and high expectations for him, though. Firstly as the son of Gilles Villeneuve and secondly as the reigning Indy 500 and Indycar champion (at its peak). 

[Jovanotti]

Indeed, but it's an opinion formed back in '01.

Well kudos to you then if you had that opinion back than and stuck to it. I certainly didn't share it (and do not now).

Edited by Jovanotti, 18 August 2015 - 13:55.

[HeadFirst]

Alonso impressed me more in '01. Consistently putting the evil handling Minardi ahead of Jags, Benetton, Arrows and Prosts. Kimi was solid, showed he deserved his place on the grid from day 1 but I never got the impression he was doing anything special.

 

What I saw as special from Kimi was how quickly he adapted to F1, after so few races in the development series. Your post led me to take a look at Fernando's pre-F1 career, and discover he too had very few races (24 I believe) before his Minardi debut. Very impressive indeed.

[ViMaMo]

Said it before and will say it again. Lewis was very impressive in his debut season. But after that, he hasn't grown at the rate they expected him to. He has improved a bit, that's it. 

[teejay]

I chose Vettel. Cosmetically, Hamilton's was better but he had a much, much better car and an experienced team-mate that sent the team in the right direction. Hamiltons first season was a bit like James Hunt's first season with McLaren in 1976. James was very good, but he benefited - says Alistair Caldwell - from a car that was set-up expertly by their former top-driver, Emerson Fittipaldi. According to Kees van der Grint (ex-boss of Bridgestone), Alonso was massively important for the development of the 2007 McLaren and Hamilton reaped what Alonso and McLaren had sown...

 

Vettel drove staggering races immediately with BMW, won a Grand Prix with Toro Rosso (exclamation-marks) at Monza... It was just jaw-dropping. With Hamilton it was: 'Excellent. McLaren made the right choice.' With Vettel it was: 'He can't be THAT good as a rookie... he can't. Oh he is...'

 

But Hamilton is a good second one.

 

How much time did Fernando have to do development work for McLaren given he was busy trying to win his 2nd WDC at the time?

[CoolBreeze]

Hamilton. No brainer. Of course, he had arguably the best car and team under him, but he crushed Alonso mentally. 

[P123]

Said it before and will say it again. Lewis was very impressive in his debut season. But after that, he hasn't grown at the rate they expected him to. He has improved a bit, that's it. 

 

He did hit the ground running at a very high level.  Perhaps if, for example, he had started with a lower ranked team and spent some time being out qualified by his teammate, and the first half dozen or so races throwing it off track that would have left him room for improvement and strangely enough earned him more brownie points among the F1 fandom...

Edited by P123, 19 August 2015 - 07:47.

[Requiem84]

As said by me; Hamilton definitely.

 

When he came to the scene and wrapped up all these podium finishes.... especially at places like Malaysia where he fought of both Rai and Mas in only his second race, that was crazy! 

 

I expected him to dominate the sport for at least 15 years, making Schumacher look clumsy next to him. However, he started making a lot of mistakes as of 08 actually. 

 

A lot of contacts with other drivers mainly, especially in '11. But also in '10 (was it Singapore with Webber and Monza with Massa?) 

 

Not sure why Hamilton never was as good as in '07. 

 

Even in '14 he regularly ****ed up qualifying...

[Nemo1965]

How much time did Fernando have to do development work for McLaren given he was busy trying to win his 2nd WDC at the time?

 

Rhetorical questions don't have to be answered. But... it is a question I asked myself too, back then.  In 2007, after three months into the season, the Dutch TV program RTL GP asked several experts how it was possible that Hamilton was so good in his rookie-season. Van der Grint of Bridgestone was the only expert present who actually had insight at the work being done at McLaren, he had close contact with the engineers that designed the car for the 2007 season, and quite some date went back and forth.  And Van der Grint said Hamilton benefited from the work of Alonso on the car and the tyres, however little time Alonso had for that after the 2006 season.

 

It sounds very plausible, considering the source.

Edited by Nemo1965, 19 August 2015 - 14:03.

[CoolBreeze]

I think, greats like Schumi and Senna, etc really comes once in a lifetime. Hamilton, given the rules and current car, should be able to break or match most records. However, sometimes, such as the precious race, he only shows that he's good when at the front. Of course, he's a brilliant overtaker and a wet racer, but half of the time he's whining on the radio when something goes wrong. If he had kept his head together at certain races like the previous one, he can/would have easily won it with the pace and natural talent he has. I just think he's always too hot headed at times. Not calculative and calm. 

[apoka]

The poll could be more interesting if we could use the 2008 season for Vettel as rookie season (he jumped in mid-season in 2007). He beat his team mate, who was a four times ChampCar title winner and now is multiple time IndyCar race winner,  35 - 4 on points. He also got 8th in WDC in a car that was way off the best in that season (which were Ferrari, McLaren, BMW and also Renault/Toyote with RB/Williams/Honda not being much inferior if at all). He won the Monza race and got several other unexpected top finishes.

 

I'm not saying that this is better than what Hamilton did in 2007, but at least it would make for an interesting comparison with possibly closer poll results.

 

[Dunc]

I don't see how it could be anybody but Lewis; he was highly rated but I remember everyone was shocked at just how good he was that season.  Yes, he had the best car AND unlimited testing AND the suport of McLaren since he was a child but there was still no reason to believe he would almost become the first rookie WDC. 

 

His debut was exceptional though and I think people sometimes lose sight of that when they judge rookies.  Vettel and Alonso are probably more typical examples of the good first season.

[Jimisgod]

Me, when I debut at Mercedes in 2017? Oh well.

 

Said it before and will say it again. Lewis was very impressive in his debut season. But after that, he hasn't grown at the rate they expected him to. He has improved a bit, that's it. 

 

I think he grew in 2012. He really didn't look like a WDC for the 4 seasons after his first (and he even won) but he's really grown to be the equal best out there.

[Marklar]

Rhetorical questions don't have to be answered. But... it is a question I asked myself too, back then.  In 2007, after three months into the season, the Dutch TV program RTL GP asked several experts how it was possible that Hamilton was so good in his rookie-system. Van der Grint of Bridgestone was the only expert present who actually had insight at the work being done at McLaren, he had close contact with the engineers that designed the car for the 2007 season, and quite some date went back and forth.  And Van der Grint said Hamilton benefited from the work of Alonso on the car and the tyres, however little time Alonso had for that after the 2006 season.

 

It sounds very plausible, considering the source.

Which is plausible. Rookies are not able to give the same feedback like experienced drivers do, in consequence the rookie is always benefitted by the work the older driver has done, but its not just for Alonso/Hamilton the case, it is and was in every team with a more experienced driver (even having one year more experience is enough) and a rookie the case. Since 2007 except of Valtteri Bottas (his team mate was Maldonado...) no rookie has outscored his more experienced team mate. Before Bottas Vettel and Hamilton were the last ones. Rookies are benefitting from veterans and Hamilton atmitted it himself by the way, but to beat the veterans with their own weapons is stil a difficult task - like other rookies have prooven.

 

The main reason for me why Hamilton was competitive against Alonso was for me a different one: the tyres. Alonso was the master of the Michelin tyres and rumours had it that Hamilton was strugeling in tests with these tyres. But 2007 was the first year were everyone had to use the Bridgestones - McLaren changed in 2007 from Michelin to Bridgestone. And the Bridgestone tyres were tested in 2006 before they got the sole supplyer in F1 - in the GP2. Who won 2006 the GP2 championship? No answer needed, I guess....Furthermore Hamilton was known later - before Pirelli become the only supplyer - as the master of the Bridgestone tyres....

 

Had F1 continue with two tyre supplyers Alonso would have easily beaten Hamilton imo. But who knows...

Edited by Marklar, 19 August 2015 - 11:46.

[Kristian]

Hamilton had the most success of a rookie season, but he was in one of the best cars and had had so much preparation and simulator time. He was basically part of the team, which Alonso was coming into, so that probably gave him a slight edge there too. 

 

I'd say Raikkonen - he was pretty impressive in that Sauber. Closely followed by Button, who I was going to vote for but I recalibrated based on personal bias which probably makes me forger some of his weaker moments that year. 

[HeadFirst]

Hamilton. No brainer. Of course, he had arguably the best car and team under him, but he crushed Alonso mentally. 

 

Not sure it was Hamilton that did the crushing .... I think Ron had more to do with it.