149 replies to this topic

[Marklar]

Taking the drivers who had their debut a while back and are the only ones on the grid who ever were in the championship fight, which achievements of this drivers surprised you must in hindsight considering your expectations you had when they arrived in F1?

 

For example: Is it more surprising for you that Vettel become a 4 times champion or that Button generally won the championship?

[CPR]

Umm... this is a hard one.

 

Maybe that Alonso hasn't won a third WDC? But that's not really the question you're asking. Maybe I'll have to think about it some more...

[PayasYouRace]

This is hard because I generally consider them to be all deserving of more success. There's just not enough years to go around. Probably Massa just because at first he seemed too erratic to even challenge for a title.

[Timantti]

I was surprised Button even won a single race yet alone a championship.

[Chick0]

I was surprised Button even won a single race yet alone a championship.

     

[Christbiscuit]

Massa was genuinely unlucky not to win the championship in 2008. I'm not sure I'd have thought that possible when he started or even now. Fast, consistent, putting his team mate in the shade and deserving of the crown, Felipe Massa. See, it still sounds odd.

[scheivlak]

I was surprised Button even won a single race yet alone a championship.

 

A poll on this forum from July 2006 asking which driver would never become a WDC: http://forums.autosp...l-never-be-wdc/

 

Button came first - as the most unlikely - ahead of DC, Ralf, Fisi and Barrichello 

 

Funny to read some of the comments from those days.

[SilverArrow31]

None of these things really surprised me. The five best drivers in the field became champions. The three best became multiple world champions, two very decent drivers have finished runner up. Only thing that I can think of is swapping Vettel and Alonso around so that Alonso is four times champion and Vettel and Hamilton twice, with more time in there career's to win more.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 15 August 2015 - 15:22.

[PayasYouRace]

If anything it's surprising that Alonso hasn't won another title in the best part of a decade.

[P123]

I wouldn't consider any of those achievements more surprising than the other..... maybe the only surprises would be Red Bull having a long period of dominance, or Alonso yet to add to his WDC tally, but neither are negatives against the respective drivers, so they don't really deserve a vote on the poll.

[sennafan24]

I agree about Alonso.

 

Even though he is racing in a competitive era, it's a surprise that a man of his talent has not won more than 2 WDC's. That's poor/unfortunate business decisions for you. 

[DarthWillie]

Hill surprised me most, he seemed to grow as a driver during 94, a drive like Japan 94 was not what I expected from him. Also coming back from a disastrous 95 impressed me

[SealTheDiffuser]

ALO: from big champion to frustrated backmarker.

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 15 August 2015 - 15:44.

[hittheapex]

In your list, Vettel winning 4 titles on the trot. Fully deserved, but given that Hamilton and Alonso were around, I don't think anybody could have predicted 4 in a row. Especially after such a competitive 2010 season. Even enjoying best or comparable to the best machinery, 3 in a row is still an exceptional achievement, to perform at that level for that period of time, let alone 4. The 3 and 4 in a row have only been achieved by two others: Fangio and Schumacher.

 

Just pips Button's WDC for me because 2009 was the first of a lot of rule changes and once the car ran it was clear it was probably going to be competing for wins at the very least. Predicting success for one year is much easier than predicting it for the next 4.

 

Outside the list, Alonso and Ferrari not getting a title, Hamilton and McLaren not getting a second.

Edited by hittheapex, 15 August 2015 - 16:03.

[George Costanza]

Most likely Fred not having more titles....

[garoidb]

None of these things really surprised me. The five best drivers in the field became champions. The three best became multiple world champions, two very decent drivers have finished runner up. Only thing that I can think of is swapping Vettel and Alonso around so that Alonso is four times champion and Vettel and Hamilton twice, with more time in there career's to win more.

 

Two of Vettel's titles were won by a whisker from Alonso, with the pendulum swinging one way and then another in the final race. It could just as easily have been 3-3 or 4-2 to Fernando. That's the way the cookie crumbles. 

[Marklar]

Surprised is meant in a positive way btw. Alonso not winning more titles is more a disappointment or a negative surprise.

[Garndell]

For me it has to be Massa, I just didn't rate him as a driver until 2008, despite him doing his best to take out Hamilton and him benefiting from some quite ludicrous stewarding calls that year.

[Lights]

A poll on this forum from July 2006 asking which driver would never become a WDC: http://forums.autosp...l-never-be-wdc/

 

Button came first - as the most unlikely - ahead of DC, Ralf, Fisi and Barrichello 

 

Funny to read some of the comments from those days.

 

That's a great read. And even now with all the hindsight in the world I find it a surprising poll result, given the age of all the other drivers. In the end he's the only one in that poll that ended up with one, the rest never really looked like a WDC contender.

[Jimisgod]

1st. Massa in 2008 - Really looked like a journeyman before and after, Strung together exactly one good season and almost won.

2nd. Vettel with 4 titles - I thought he'd be good but that V8 RBR was just crazy.

3rd. Button winning in 2009 - Never knew he had it in him, had him put down as an Alesi of the 00s but then he became WDC also beat Hamilton in 2011.

[Atreiu]

Vettel.

 

Who the **** could have expected the 2009 changes would suit Newey like a glove and remind him how to make nearly perfect cars and that then Vettel would be there to sweep up the wins?

 

I never saw it coming. And I never imagined Alonso's and Hamilton's achievments would look so mundane after they barely began to win.

Edited by Atreiu, 15 August 2015 - 16:33.

[Jimisgod]

A poll on this forum from July 2006 asking which driver would never become a WDC: http://forums.autosp...l-never-be-wdc/

 

Button came first - as the most unlikely - ahead of DC, Ralf, Fisi and Barrichello 

 

Funny to read some of the comments from those days.

 

I don't think anyone believed Halfie and DC were more likely to be WDC even in 2006.

[sennafan24]

Out of the drivers in question, a lot of their achievements are not surprising due to their talent. Instead, the surprise comes from them being in the right place at the right time to accomplish their achievements. A lot of drivers have won/challenged for WDC's out of nowhere. 

 

- Button's WDC was only a surprise due to it coming out of nowhere (Honda were dire in 2007/2008). Despite a few niggles early on in his career, I felt he had top-driver potential. His 2003-2006 campaigns showcased his talent. Before, that he was a work-in-progress, and it was not entirely clear how his career would pan out. 

 

- Seb becoming WDC was no surprise, but him winning it 4 times was unexpected. He had shown WDC potential in 2008, so it was not shocking when he won the title in 2010. However, it was surprising that Red Bull had the best car for such a long time.

 

- By the time 2008 rolled around, it was not a massive surprise that Massa ended up being a WDC runner up. It was a shock relative to earlier in his career, but he had shown potential in the 2006/2007 Ferrari's. (The Ferrari cars from this period get underrated in my opinion, but Massa deserves credit for beating Kimi. Few would have predicted that a few years earlier)

[MikeV1987]

Vettel; I started following F1 closely in 07, and since we are the same age he was the first driver I really cheered for. I was not expecting that kind of success 

Edited by MikeV1987, 15 August 2015 - 17:19.

[jjcale]

I agree about Alonso.

 

Even though he is racing in a competitive era, it's a surprise that a man of his talent has not won more than 2 WDC's. That's poor/unfortunate business decisions for you. 

 

He blew the 2007 season all by himself and has never really recovered from it.... He could easily have been a 4xWDC in 4 years (but with 2 different teams and been considered the greatest of all time) if it wasnt for that pesky LH at Macca. From there the sky was the limit ... unlike LH he woul d not have blown the 2010 title driving for Macca - so that now 5 titles ....and he probably gets it in 2012 as well since Macca would have looked after his car a bit better than they did the departing LH's ... so they probably would not have gone for a new design in 2013 and he would have had a shot that year as well.

 

Its not inconceivable that FA could have had 6 titles by now... had he driven to his potential in 2007 instead of throwing his toys out the pram ... and best of all SV would have two less. 

[jjcale]

JB could easily have left F1 at the end of 2008 when Honda pulled out.... from that standpoint his title was the most surprising ... but if you look at things from the first day of testing in 2009 onwards then no that was no surprise to anyone paying attention.

 

If what you mean is who is the biggest mismatch of achievements to talent, ie who is the luckiest then clearly that is SV - even though he is very talented ... but he won the first two of his titles when he was far from being a complete driver.... IMO  SV has improved every year he has been in F! and each of his championships was better than the last ... but he was not even close to being the best driver in 2010 - or even 2011... and probably not in 2012 .... I think only in 2013 would I say he was the best or one of the best drivers. .... and today you could make a case for him being the best driver.

 

Compare him to LH who has not really improved at all over the years - in terms of driving. But then I though LH was already the best driver in the world in 2006 from a driving technique point of view so I guess its hard for him to improve too much from such a strong start... I think if it was today LH would have been in F1 on the back of what he did in 2005 - esp if he was a Redbull driver... by the time he got to F1 he was already the finished product and all that was left was to add some experience of the pressure that comes with being in F1.... yet TBH I would say that LH still has not fully come to terms with dealing with that pressure.

 

/slightly OT. 

Edited by jjcale, 15 August 2015 - 17:50.

[jjcale]

Vettel.

 

Who the **** could have expected the 2009 changes would suit Newey like a glove and remind him how to make nearly perfect cars and that then Vettel would be there to sweep up the wins?

 

I never saw it coming. And I never imagined Alonso's and Hamilton's achievments would look so mundane after they barely began to win.

 

Only FA ... if Merc keeps up its dominance again next year - and that is a real possibility, LH is on course to catch and pass SV on all statistical measurements. 4 titles, more wins, already has more poles ... if it keep up like this for another 18 months its not gonna be close between them on wins and poles.

 

Amazingly, FA has been the best driver of the past 10 years but he has been overshadowed in terms of stats by both FA and LH ... show how little stats mean.... but in 20 years time I am going to have trouble explaining to young folks that actually FA was the best of them all in this era not matter what the record books say.

[Atreiu]

I don't beleive in karma, but perhaps Alonso does.

[jjcale]

In your list, Vettel winning 4 titles on the trot. Fully deserved, but given that Hamilton and Alonso were around, I don't think anybody could have predicted 4 in a row. Especially after such a competitive 2010 season. Even enjoying best or comparable to the best machinery, 3 in a row is still an exceptional achievement, to perform at that level for that period of time, let alone 4. The 3 and 4 in a row have only been achieved by two others: Fangio and Schumacher.

 

...

 

2010 was only competitive because of bad luck on SV's part.... He was by far the best driver/car combination that year. Though the best drivers were by far FA and LH.

 

Only thing good about SV beating FA and LH to the title in 2010 was that Webber didnt get it. That would have been completely undeserved IMHO along the lines of Rosberg possibly winning last year because of LH's bad luck or FM possibly winning 2008 because of the FIA.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Out of the options in the poll, definitely Massa. Very surprised he managed to go all the way back in 2008. He definitely deserved that World Championship more than Hamilton that year, a shame about those retirements in Hungary and Singapore.

[P123]

He blew the 2007 season all by himself and has never really recovered from it.... He could easily have been a 4xWDC in 4 years (but with 2 different teams and been considered the greatest of all time) if it wasnt for that pesky LH at Macca. From there the sky was the limit ... unlike LH he woul d not have blown the 2010 title driving for Macca - so that now 5 titles ....and he probably gets it in 2012 as well since Macca would have looked after his car a bit better than they did the departing LH's ... so they probably would not have gone for a new design in 2013 and he would have had a shot that year as well.
 
 

Lots of 'what-ifs' there, although it does show how one stubborn bruised ego induced sulk can have a ripple effect.  I think your memory is a little fuzzy with regards 2010 though.  Granted, easily led by the accepted and unquestioned mantra that Alonso is perfect and only Hamilton could possibly blow a championship.

[jjcale]

Lots of 'what-ifs' there, although it does show how one stubborn bruised ego induced sulk can have a ripple effect.  I think your memory is a little fuzzy with regards 2010 though.  Granted, easily led by the accepted and unquestioned mantra that Alonso is perfect and only Hamilton could possibly blow a championship.

 

No I am basing it how they performed in that particular year .... LH completely blew that title ... I rewatched that season over the summer break and as an LH fan I was completely disgusted. I did not remember it being as bad as it looked to me in retrospect .... Monza in particular was a criminal offence

Edited by jjcale, 15 August 2015 - 18:06.

[sennafan24]

He blew the 2007 season all by himself and has never really recovered from it.... He could easily have been a 4xWDC in 4 years (but with 2 different teams and been considered the greatest of all time) if it wasnt for that pesky LH at Macca. From there the sky was the limit 

You have made a lot of assumptions.

 

I have one of my own which would contradict your timeline slightly. If Alonso signed with Red Bull at some point during 2008-2009, the sky would have indeed been the limit, and Alonso might be threatening Schumi's records. Although that carries the assumptions that Alonso would beat Seb, Webber or whoever he was teamed with at Red Bull, and other related assumptions with other drivers.

 

That's the issue with changing history, it's too complex. (I.E The Butterfly effect)

Edited by sennafan24, 15 August 2015 - 18:13.

[P123]

No I am basing it how they performed in that particular year .... LH completely blew that title ... I rewatched that season over the summer break and as an LH fan I was completely disgusted. I did not remember it being as bad as it looked to me in retrospect .... Monza in particular was a criminal offence

Monza was the only real error. If you re-watched 2010 you would have noticed the errors from Vettel and Alonso too. I guess Hamilton gets no credit for the driving that brought him into championship contention; he only gets the scorn for errors.

[HeadFirst]

Agree with those surprised that Alonso is only a 2x WDC. Talent in the wrong car can yield some brilliant results, but not championships. As for Massa ...... I have never rated him as having WDC potential, so him not having 1 is no surprise. I am surprised that Ferrari held on to him so long, and that Williams was willing to give him a chance.

[Lights]

2010 was only competitive because of bad luck on SV's part.... He was by far the best driver/car combination that year. Though the best drivers were by far FA and LH.

 

Only thing good about SV beating FA and LH to the title in 2010 was that Webber didnt get it. That would have been completely undeserved IMHO along the lines of Rosberg possibly winning last year because of LH's bad luck or FM possibly winning 2008 because of the FIA.

 

Doesn't make perfect sense in my opinion. He was the best driver/car combination? Well if with he you refer to the 'Vettel championship entry' or something, but it reads a bit strange. Either way mechanical problems are part of the car in my view, which in turn is part of the driver/car combination.

[Lights]

Amazingly, FA has been the best driver of the past 10 years but he has been overshadowed in terms of stats by both FA and LH ... show how little stats mean.... but in 20 years time I am going to have trouble explaining to young folks that actually FA was the best of them all in this era not matter what the record books say.

 

Historically I think this is relatively unique. Sure, there's cases like Moss and Villeneuve, but really being this overshadowed in statistics while regarded as the best?

[Atreiu]

(...)Amazingly, FA has been the best driver of the past 10 years but he has been overshadowed in terms of stats by both FA and LH ... show how little stats mean.... but in 20 years time I am going to have trouble explaining to young folks that actually FA was the best of them all in this era not matter what the record books say.

 

That first statement is debatable, but I agree there is a mismatch between Alonso's stats and his talent... just as Vettel's stats are obviously inflated. He has never been twice as good as Alonso of Hamilton, so to speak.

[jjcale]

Doesn't make perfect sense in my opinion. He was the best driver/car combination? Well if with he you refer to the 'Vettel championship entry' or something, but it reads a bit strange. Either way mechanical problems are part of the car in my view, which in turn is part of the driver/car combination.

I see your point ... but I think you understand what I meant ... maybe I should have said fastest and not best.

[jonpollak]

No Max DerSlappen?

Poll is Bull$hit

 

Jp

[jjcale]

Monza was the only real error. If you re-watched 2010 you would have noticed the errors from Vettel and Alonso too. I guess Hamilton gets no credit for the driving that brought him into championship contention; he only gets the scorn for errors.

 

I think LH was the best driver that season ... but I also think he had the second best car and if FA had that car he would have been champion. 

 

And yes, FA also made mistakes but not at psychologically crucial points... LH more had the feel of crumbling under pressure than just doing dumb things - like FA's jump start. The points LH lost in moments of madness in back to back races would have comfortably won him the title... that sort of "double faulting" is something that he is known for and which FA does not do. ... and I say that as a massive LH fan. .  

[Imateria]

Has to be Massa, I still remember Villeneuve criticising him for not being able to drive in a straight line at Silverstone '02.

[Spillage]

Button and Massa, as they're the two that improved the most. If you'd told me in 2003 that within five years Massa will get to within a point of a World Championship I'd have laughed in your face.

[PayasYouRace]

A poll on this forum from July 2006 asking which driver would never become a WDC: http://forums.autosp...l-never-be-wdc/

 

Button came first - as the most unlikely - ahead of DC, Ralf, Fisi and Barrichello 

 

Funny to read some of the comments from those days.

 

It's incredible actually. Just shows how unpredictable this sport it. The next few champions from there were one driver who was highly rated yet still many didn't he could do it, then a new driver who wasn't in F1 at the time, then the guy who topped that poll and then another new driver at the time.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 15 August 2015 - 20:06.

[HP]

Button.

 

First win in his 7th season in F1.

 

No further wins until his 10th season were he won 6 races and the championship.

 

Then further 3 years with 2 to 3 wins a season. Adding to 15 wins so far.

 

Compare that win stat to FA, LH and SV. Sure it has also to do with poor/unfortunate business decisions. Button was and is paired up with some of the best, and while being able to keep LH and FA honest, truly outmatching them seemed never be on the cards. But he is certainly better than your typical #2 driver. Mister 1 1/2 perhaps? The 1/2 for being able to seize on the opportunity given with Brawn GP. I still think of that year as a complete oddity, as even when my favourite team and/or driver did not win either championship, I still was content with F1. But that year when Button won, left me completely cold. Odd, but that's what it was for me.

 

I agree about Alonso.

 

Even though he is racing in a competitive era, it's a surprise that a man of his talent has not won more than 2 WDC's. That's poor/unfortunate business decisions for you. 

He should have taken the same tried and tested approach as other multiple WDC's do in choosing a team. At the moment it looks as if McLaren is a team that goes down in history as being on the top in the last century, and slowly fading away as their glorious past further slides into the past. And Alonso fell twice for the promises being made. Ok maybe first time around the McLaren should have been good enough, and had Alonso been willing to overlook some of the things that happened at McLaren, he'd possibly still had won the championship that year. But that's hindsight of course.

[Exb]

Massa, it still surprises me now he was within a point of the title 

His early years he didn't stand out, and after 2008(/9) he looked distinctly average against Fernando. Even now in the Williams he is so inconsistent - not how you put together a title challenge. Oh well just shows (almost) any F1 driver is capable of a great season when the stars align for them.....

[aramos]

I think relative to their ability, Vettel definitely. While he was a promising junior, he never really stood out as the most talented or anything and relatively speaking someone with no real f1 achievements ending up in a dominant car 4 years in a row is very very unlikely as the top teams typically hire established drivers.

 

All the stars aligned for him, brilliant hardware and below average team mates to give him a perfect run. Had anyone told you that when the grid had drivers the quality of Alonso and Hamilton that nether would win a title for the next 6 years following 2008 you would have laughed.

[scheivlak]

Had anyone told you that when the grid had drivers the quality of Alonso and Hamilton that nether would win a title for the next 6 years following 2008 you would have laughed.

Well, Hamilton did win the title in the 6th year following 2008 

[Paddel]

I think relative to their ability, Vettel definitely. [...] someone with no real f1 achievements [...]
 
All the stars aligned for him, brilliant hardware and below average team mates to give him a perfect run.[...]

Yeah right, like Vettel wasn't the rookie to watch in 07/08. When he won in Monza everyone agreed he had all the tools to become great. That's what you call no achievements?
As you brought up LH and FA, what did they achieve in average cars? Oh right LH never drove one... Gotta love these selective memory types!

[aramos]

Yeah right, like Vettel wasn't the rookie to watch in 07/08. When he won in Monza everyone agreed he had all the tools to become great. That's what you call no achievements?
As you brought up LH and FA, what did they achieve in average cars? Oh right LH never drove one... Gotta love these selective memory types!

 

He never won a junior championship past a regional 2.0L BMW series and has never beaten a top level team mate, he's spent most of his career next to drivers like Webber, Bourdais and now Raikkonen in top level hardware. I get it that he's promising, nearly every F1 driver is, but he hardly looked like a prodigy.

Edited by aramos, 16 August 2015 - 09:31.