149 replies to this topic

[YoungGun]

Are you sure that's what he's saying ... who the hell would put a 4 year old in a Kart??

 

He was 4 when he started driving karts, 8 when he was actually racing karts.

[aramos]

More or less. Alonso has made a career out of making previously highly rated drivers look normal. The only teammate he's ever had that escaped their reputation from being damaged quite badly is Hamilton.I don't rate Vettel quite as highly as I do Alonso, but he's still shown he can make a good driver look average. Beating Webber was no easy feat, especially in the qualifying game, which Webber was considered one of the best at. And with Kimi, he's again proving he has the ability to *more* than match up against good drivers. Kimi is still doing ok, Vettel isn't blowing him out of the water in raw performance, but he's doing enough to make it look like Kimi is floundering.I'd like to see Vettel go against Lewis or Alonso myself, but again, I don't think many people are arguing he is some all-time great. We know the stats don't prove everything and that winning four championships doesn't automatically make you 'better' than somebody who only won two championships. Any driver who wins 4 championships has obviously driven some great cars in their career. And not every great driver gets that sort of opportunity. You seem to be arguing that what Vettel has achieved is 'surprising', but I don't see how. Pre-2010, there were all kinds of indications this kid could be extremely good if given even better machinery. You bring up his junior record, and while not filled with championship trophies, he was still highly rated and did well everywhere he went. And then in F1, he was impressing again. Pretty much ever step leading up to his first championship winning season in F1, he was impressive.If anything, a guy like Alonso probably popped into the F1 scene with a lot less fanfare than Vettel did. Obviously some people in the know had an idea that Alonso was going to be good, but I doubt anybody even after his Minardi days was figuring that he'd go down as possibly *the* best of his generation and the guy who would topple Michael Schumacher's reign.

I think we generally agree on what we're saying. I agree completely Vettel showed enough promise that given the better car he could do these results and I'm aware he was rated highly during his junior career, but so we're others. This is f1 after all, you don't get here unless you're the best or a pay driver.

The one thing I disagree with is the difference in pace between the great and good drivers. Ricciardo last year out paced Vettel, even if you argue that Vettel underperformed and is stronger this year it's hard to imagine their being much of a pace difference between them, drivers like Kvyat have shown he can live with that pace, Rosberg is very close to Hamilton. It's hard to imagine Raikkonen's pace being ahead of any of those drivers and then you have drivers like Bottas, Verstappen, Hulkenberg, Massa who themselves are quick. It's still very difficult to put him in the top 50% of drivers imo.

Edited by aramos, 16 August 2015 - 15:46.

[Kev00]

For me Massa is the biggest surprise. I wasn't very impreesed when he was at sauber and i didn't think he would become a lead driver for ferrari and come so close to winning a title in 2008. I was quite impressed with both button and rosberg when they stepped into f1, both at a young age, and i'm surprised i took button so long to get into a top team. Rosberg though i don't think has developed into an elite driver.

[Marklar]

Are you sure that's what he's saying ... who the hell would put a 4 year old in a Kart??

Thats what I wanted to say ;)

Vettel was first time at Christmas 1990 in a kart. He was 3.5 years old. His father Norbert told that and showed a video of that in a documentary a few years back ;)

He drove his first races at the age of 8 thought because at this age you are officialy allowed to race.

Hamilton for example had his first kart at the age of 8. I dont know when he actually started to race because I dont know his karting career that well like Vettels.

Edit: Hulkenberg started his kart career at the age of 10. Hamilton had his first kart at the age of 8 and started racing at the age of 10.

Edited by Marklar, 16 August 2015 - 17:16.

[Marklar]

However. For whatever reason we got OT. We should stsy to the topic ;)

[sennafan24]

In regards to Seb's junior career.

 

I have never followed any of the junior series, but his efforts were critically acclaimed. There was hype for him before he entered F1. For example, there was/is a 2007 article from the F1Fanitics site, which touts him as the next big thing (saying he has the potential to be as good as Lewis).

[Marklar]

In regards to Seb's junior career.

I have never followed any of the junior series, but his efforts were critically acclaimed. There was hype for him before he entered F1. For example, there was/is a 2007 article from the F1Fanitics site, which touts him as the next big thing (saying he has the potential to be as good as Lewis).

Which is absolutely true...the point was that one user judged Sebs junior career by his efforts in the record books and the other one by the age. Both criteria are not relevant imo.

[Dick Dastardly]

Outside of the list, the one driver who surprised me was Mansell winning the Cart title in '93. It took him years to win his 1st GP, had close calls with the WDC in '86 & '87, finally dominating the '92 season....but going to the States for '93, managed to clinch the CART title at his 1st attempt even with no prior experience of ovals....beating the likes of Mario & Emmo in the process     

[hittheapex]

Which is absolutely true...the point was that one user judged Sebs junior career by his efforts in the record books and the other one by the age. Both criteria are not relevant imo.

Completely agree. Once the step to F1 is made, the slate is wiped clean. Everything else before was preparation.

Edited by hittheapex, 16 August 2015 - 21:34.

[teejay]

Button.

[zeph]

I never thought Button would be WDC. In fact, I thought Barichello would cream him .

[Counterbalance]

Vettel. 4 world titles with Hamilton and Alonso on the grid. Who would have thought that five years ago!

Edited by Counterbalance, 17 August 2015 - 03:45.

[SB]

I'm surprised on the fact that nobody has yet mentioned Pastor Maldonado ??!   

[zanquis]

I don't agree at all. Maybe on Verstappen. But Vettel arrived at FR3.5, won on his race debut (!!!) on a one-off appearance, and then was dominating the championship pretty easily the next year when he got called up to F1 mid-season. Vergne, Kvyat and specially Ricciardo all impressed me on lower formula but Vettel did even better than all of them IMO.

It's true that in F3 Euro he was beaten by di Resta - marginally - but he still came close to the championship and it was a marginal loss to a more experienced driver. And previously he had absolutely murdered FBMW at a time FBMW was pretty strong.

The only time I thought Vettel was underwhelming in those early days, was that very first F1 race for BMW in Indy, like I was saying in the other thread. But that was just one single race with little preparation. The trend was remarkably promising otherwise. It's not a surprise at all he became a multiple champion.

What I find showing also was that in Vettels junior years he races a few against vdG and in terms of speed vdG back then was not far off pace. He was like Vettel amongst the fastest in F3 and managed to win the WSR3.5 title in good form. He just got on a bad track where the little bit extra from Vettel and the luck for him that there where some drivers needing replacement in F1 launchex his career. Where bad contracts dive bombed the other.

[Paddel]

Aramos I may have just registered here but I'm not a troll;)
One reason for Vettel loosing out to di Resta in 2006 was that Vettel started testdriving for BMWF1 on fridays in august while di Resta "only" had f3 to focus on.
Regardless oft his junior time I repeat MO that Vet looked like at least a one time champ from his first STR day.
Funnily enough I seem to remember quite a few pundits and experts saying his move from STR to Red Bull was a waste and that a guy with his talents should be trying to get a better seat(SF or Macca).

To sum it up: Vettels rise was pretty much predicted all around, the only surprise was RB becoming such a great team!

PS What's all this about Ric? Vet had a bad season, so have others. LH crashed into anything and anyone during his infameous 2011 campain and needed a Merc Super-Rocketship to get his second title. But he's the greatest.. Oh yeah english board I guess!

Edited by Paddel, 17 August 2015 - 21:07.

[sennafan24]

PS What's all this about Ric? Vet had a bad season, so have others. LH crashed into anything and anyone during his infameous 2011 campain and needed a Merc Super-Rocketship to get his second title. But he's the greatest.. Oh yeah english board I guess!

What is it with silly strawman arguments lately.  Who said Lewis is the greatest?

 

If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you present your arguments in a more refined way. 

Edited by sennafan24, 17 August 2015 - 21:40.

[scheivlak]

 Oh yeah english board I guess!

Resorting to arguments like this will not help your crusade.

[Paddel]

Sorry Sennafan24 and scheivlak, I was responding to aramos and others above because I feel someone should. A mere afterthought.
Regarding my substantiated arguments, they still stand.

[sennafan24]

Regarding my substantiated arguments, they still stand.

Very few would dispute that the 2014 Mercedes was a rocketship, or that Lewis's 2011 campaign was sub-par.

 

On the former: Most championships have been won with the outright best car. So, it's unfair to single Lewis out, especially as his 2014 campaign was superb.

Edited by sennafan24, 17 August 2015 - 22:28.

[noikeee]

What I find showing also was that in Vettels junior years he races a few against vdG and in terms of speed vdG back then was not far off pace. He was like Vettel amongst the fastest in F3 and managed to win the WSR3.5 title in good form. He just got on a bad track where the little bit extra from Vettel and the luck for him that there where some drivers needing replacement in F1 launchex his career. Where bad contracts dive bombed the other.

 

Van der Garde was 3 years older, had 1 more year of experience in F3, and finished 4 places in the championship behind Vettel. He also won WSR on his 2nd season, whereas Vettel was on course to win it in his first. I think it's pretty clear why Van der Garde wasn't really rated by anyone (though I remember there were some rumours he was really good in simulators, and he had been a karting champion, but by 2006 he wasn't seen as a future star anymore)

[scheivlak]

Vettel. 4 world titles with Hamilton and Alonso on the grid. Who would have thought that five years ago!

Well, the early part of the 2010 season - when he was at times quite unlucky - already gave a good indication. To me, he was simply the fastest guy around though his edges were not completely smoothened.

[Paddel]

Very few would dispute that the 2014 Mercedes was a rocketship, or that Lewis's 2011 campaign was sub-par.

On the former: Most championships have been won with the outright best car. So, it's unfair to single Lewis out, especially as his 2014 campaign was superb.

I think we're talking past each other. I was referring to my "substantiated arguments" explaining why Vettels rise shouldn't have surprised anyone.

Being an avid follower of F1 I don't doubt Lewis abilities in the least. Awesome racer! No idea who'd come out on top if he and Seb found themselves in one team. And neither does anyone else. But to read some comments here.. I just felt I had to speak out.

Edited by Paddel, 17 August 2015 - 22:48.

[sennafan24]

I think we're talking past each other. I was referring to my "substantiated arguments" explaining why Vettels rise shouldn't have surprised anyone.

I don't think running down an opposing driver in such a degrading tone,  and insinuating national bias is the best way to present your arguments.

 

But now you have clarified, fair enough. 

[YoungGun]

 I just felt I had to speak out.

 

 

Sometimes it's best not to waste one's energy.  Welcome to the board. You'll find the driver thread which is currently dormant pretty spirited in debate too.

[Volcano70]

Uuuuhhh, none TBH. I started following F1 (more than i used to) around 2013 and early 2014. I knew Vettel was on a tear so it didn't surprise me. In 2014 I knew Mercedes were on a tear so it didn't matter to me, I was cheering for both of them. As i looked into the depths of Formula One online and learning about all what happened in the past, Button winning his Drivers Championship was big, since he had 1 win 3 years earlier.

[63Corvette]

Taking the drivers who had their debut a while back and are the only ones on the grid who ever were in the championship fight, which achievements of this drivers surprised you must in hindsight considering your expectations you had when they arrived in F1?

 

For example: Is it more surprising for you that Vettel become a 4 times champion or that Button generally won the championship?

Anyone who discounted Seastian Vettle after he blew everyone's doors off in the rain at Monza, simply does not understand the skill level necessary to drive a F1 car in the rain....anywhere!!!

[zanquis]

Van der Garde was 3 years older, had 1 more year of experience in F3, and finished 4 places in the championship behind Vettel. He also won WSR on his 2nd season, whereas Vettel was on course to win it in his first. I think it's pretty clear why Van der Garde wasn't really rated by anyone (though I remember there were some rumours he was really good in simulators, and he had been a karting champion, but by 2006 he wasn't seen as a future star anymore)

I am not saying it is not true but many people forget vdG was in those days having incredible bad luck, like his car failing to make it to the grid when he had pole. In terms of speed he was capable to compete. But i always felt he was often overdriving the car when he lacked financial support/sponsors. And he had to compete vs very strong competitors in hindsight. And before some people think i am saying he is much better I was giving a example how small differences can make or break a driver, Vettel took a year F1 before really coming up to speed even.

[Marklar]

I think we're talking past each other. I was referring to my "substantiated arguments" explaining why Vettels rise shouldn't have surprised anyone.

Being an avid follower of F1 I don't doubt Lewis abilities in the least. Awesome racer! No idea who'd come out on top if he and Seb found themselves in one team. And neither does anyone else. But to read some comments here.. I just felt I had to speak out.

The only one who was slightly downplaying Vettels pre-F1 achievements here was a user, who however got banned now, everyone was either not surprised, or surprised by the amount of titles to this date (like me) and others (I believe fans of him) even started in the discussion to overjudge Vettels pre F1 achievements by judging him by his age (which is obviously not the whole story).

 

From my side, as I follow Seb since he was 12 years old (Red Bull is supporting him by the way since he was 10 years old): He wasnt that promising in karting althought he was usually one of the most experienced drivers out there and It was a bit strange that he got supported by a big company like Red Bull, but his Formula BMW seasons and his rookie season in F3 fully convinced me later. His 2nd F3 season was not that great, but it was well explainable because di Resta was a Merc junior and ART was the Merc junior team and they were some doubts that they really got equal support. And he was the test driver for BMW and did set the fastest time in his first ever practice in Turkey. Than he got to the WSbR and he was comfortable leading the championship (and just in this case the age/experience argument is actually valid btw).

 

When I was following the 2005 Formula 3 season I was sure that Vettel and Hamilton will have in the future great fights for the championship. On this point I was probably right.

Edited by Marklar, 18 August 2015 - 14:11.

[Dan333SP]

I voted for Button, mostly because I always thought he was talented enough to win races and a title but never thought he'd luck into something like the BGP01 after all the bad luck he'd had with Benetton/Renault/BAR/Honda and the mediocre cars he was given year after year.

 

Massa also surprised me. I liked him at Sauber but thought he was a bit reckless. When he beat MSC to pole and then the win at Turkey in '06, I thought it was a one-off, but from there he became faster and more consistent and then the whole 2008 season was a bit of a shock to me in that he was actually fighting on level terms with Alonso, Kimi, and Lewis. I'm still a little bitter about how that Brazilian GP ended, so heartbreaking even now.

[Marklar]

That are the pre-F1 achievements of the F1 drivers in this pool

 

Lewis Hamilton

Karting: 1993-2001

2002: Formula Renault 2.0 UK (3rd)

2003: Formula Renault 2.0 UK (1st)

2004: Formula 3 Euroseries (5th)

2005: Formula 3 Euroseries (1st)

2006: GP2 Series (1st)

 

Always in the top 5

 

 

Nico Rosberg

Karting: 1991-2001

2002: Formula BMW Germany (1st)

2003: Formula 3 Euroseries (8th)

2004: Formula 3 Euroseries (4th)

2005: GP2 Series (1st)

 

Always in the top 8

 

 

Sebastian Vettel

Karting: 1991-2002

2003: Formula BMW Germany (2nd)

2004: Formula BMW Germany (1st)

2005: Formula 3 Euroseries (5th)

2006: Formula 3 Euroseries (2nd)

2007: Formula Renault 3.5 Series (5th) - promoted during the season to F1

 

Always in the top 5

 

 

Kimi Räikkönen

Karting: 1988-1998

1999: Formula Renault UK Winterseries (1st)

2000: Formula Renault UK (1st)

 

Always winning

 

 

Felipe Massa

Karting: 1990-1997

1998: Formula Chevrolet Brazil (5th)

1999: Formula Chevrolet Brazil (1st)

2000: Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup/Italy (1st)

2001: Euro 3000 (1st)

 

Always in the top 5

 

 

Fernando Alonso

Karting: 1984-1998

1999: Euro Open by Nissan (1st)

2000: Formula 3000 (4th)

 

Always in the top 4

 

 

Jenson Button

Karting: 1988-1997

1998: British Formula Ford (1st)

1999: European Formula Ford (2nd), British Formula 3 (3rd)

 

Always in the top 3

 

 

I think they were all very promising.

Edited by Marklar, 18 August 2015 - 14:06.

[Dan333SP]

That are the pre-F1 achievements of the F1 drivers in this pool

 

Lewis Hamilton

Karting: 1993-2001

2002: Formula Renault 2.0 UK (3rd)

2003: Formula Renault 2.0 UK (1st)

2004: Formula 3 Euroseries (5th)

2005: Formula 3 Euroseries (1st)

2006: GP2 Series (1st)

 

Always in the top 5

 

 

Nico Rosberg

Karting: 1991-2001

2002: Formula BMW Germany (1st)

2003: Formula 3 Euroseries (8th)

2004: Formula 3 Euroseries (4th)

2005: GP2 Series (1st)

 

Always in the top 8

 

 

Sebastian Vettel

Karting: 1991-2002

2003: Formula BMW Germany (2nd)

2004: Formula BMW Germany (1st)

2005: Formula 3 Euroseries (5th)

2006: Formula 3 Euroseries (2nd)

2007: Formula Renault 3.5 Series (5th) - promoted during the season to F1

 

Always in the top 5

 

 

Kimi Räikkönen

Karting: 1988-1998

1999: Formula Renault UK Winterseries (1st)

2000: Formula Renault UK (1st)

 

Always winning

 

 

Felipe Massa

Karting: 1990-1997

1998: Formula Chevrolet Brazil (5th)

1999: Formula Chevrolet Brazil (1st)

2000: Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup/Italy (1st)

2001: Euro 3000 (1st)

 

Always in the top 5

 

 

Fernando Alonso

Karting: 1984-1998

1999: Euro Open by Nissan (1st)

2000: Formula 3000 (4th)

 

Always in the top 4

 

 

Jenson Button

Karting: 1988-1997

1998: British Formula Ford (1st)

1999: European Formula Ford (2nd), British Formula 3 (3rd)

 

Always in the top 3

 

 

I think they were all very promising.

 

They all also had around 10 years of karting experience before stepping into cars. I guess we all know F1 drivers start at a young age, but those numbers really show why. If you want to have any hope, you're going to have to beat a guy that's been racing most summer weekends in karts since he was 6 or 7.

[Radoye]

I must say that i used to consider Jenson Button somewhat overrated and not WDC material. He used to be one of (if not the one) highest salaried drivers on the grid for very little in return - something like Ralf Schumacher of sorts. That Brawn car was a beast but he did good that year, and later his drives for McLaren esp. in changing conditions convinced me to reevaluate him and now i do consider him a worthy WDC. Therefore my vote in this poll goes to him, his WDC was at the time a surprise to me.

 

Other than that, out of the offered choices nothing else strikes me as out of place, except that one could have expected more from Fernando Alonso based on his racing abilities, but he seems to have an uncanny talent to shoot his career in the foot over and over again. If someone had asked me circa 2010 who will be first to make it to 4 WDC titles Alonso or Vettel, i would have picked Alonso. Yet, Vettel's achievements are not undeserved one little bit, eventhough i didn't see him as a 4x repeat WDC he certainly is a top class racer. He grabbed his chance to shine and he used it well.

[zanquis]

That are the pre-F1 achievements of the F1 drivers in this pool

Lewis Hamilton
Karting: 1993-2001
2002: Formula Renault 2.0 UK (3rd)
2003: Formula Renault 2.0 UK (1st)
2004: Formula 3 Euroseries (5th)
2005: Formula 3 Euroseries (1st)
2006: GP2 Series (1st)

Always in the top 5


Nico Rosberg
Karting: 1991-2001
2002: Formula BMW Germany (1st)
2003: Formula 3 Euroseries (8th)
2004: Formula 3 Euroseries (4th)
2005: GP2 Series (1st)

Always in the top 8


Sebastian Vettel
Karting: 1991-2002
2003: Formula BMW Germany (2nd)
2004: Formula BMW Germany (1st)
2005: Formula 3 Euroseries (5th)
2006: Formula 3 Euroseries (2nd)
2007: Formula Renault 3.5 Series (5th) - promoted during the season to F1

Always in the top 5


Kimi Räikkönen
Karting: 1988-1998
1999: Formula Renault UK Winterseries (1st)
2000: Formula Renault UK (1st)

Always winning


Felipe Massa
Karting: 1990-1997
1998: Formula Chevrolet Brazil (5th)
1999: Formula Chevrolet Brazil (1st)
2000: Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup/Italy (1st)
2001: Euro 3000 (1st)

Always in the top 5


Fernando Alonso
Karting: 1984-1998
1999: Euro Open by Nissan (1st)
2000: Formula 3000 (4th)

Always in the top 4


Jenson Button
Karting: 1988-1997
1998: British Formula Ford (1st)
1999: European Formula Ford (2nd), British Formula 3 (3rd)

Always in the top 3


I think they were all very promising.

Based on this I think Rosberg managed to get away just in time on many seasons, his performance pre f1 looks oke but his best result was mainly because every driver and teams where rookies.

[Dick Dastardly]

Away from the listed drivers....I would never have predicted Hunt, Mansell, Damon Hill & Button winning the WDC given their respective records in lower categories. All 4 were outclassed in F3 yet through luck and being in the right place at the right time, they ended up in teams / cars capable of winning the WDC and duly delivered    

[Marklar]

Based on this I think Rosberg managed to get away just in time on many seasons, his performance pre f1 looks oke but his best result was mainly because every driver and teams where rookies.

Yes, theyre is actually a bit truth in it. He was very mediocre in F3, if he wouldnt be Kekes son, he would have stucked at this point pretty sure like many drivers in the past without this kind of support did. But he got his chance then after the F3 in the GP2 and he proved that he is worth to drive in F1.

Edited by Marklar, 18 August 2015 - 18:26.

[Radoye]

Away from the listed drivers....I would never have predicted Hunt, Mansell, Damon Hill & Button winning the WDC given their respective records in lower categories. All 4 were outclassed in F3 yet through luck and being in the right place at the right time, they ended up in teams / cars capable of winning the WDC and duly delivered    

 

The lower categories records while to a degree indicative of one's talent often don't tell the whole picture. Lauda was crap in lower categories and had to buy his way into F1, yet once there he took 3 titles and is rightfully considered one of the true legends of the sport. Fangio once said that in a lower performance car many drivers are able to be close to the top performance, but as they move to gradually ever more powerful cars only the truly talented are able to shine while the others fell behind.

[noikeee]

Based on this I think Rosberg managed to get away just in time on many seasons, his performance pre f1 looks oke but his best result was mainly because every driver and teams where rookies.

 

I don't think you can dismiss Rosberg's GP2 title that easily, sure that was a special season that can't really be claimed as a "title on rookie season" like you can for Hamilton or Hulkenberg, but it was a good field he beat - Kovalainen who was thought a huge prospect at the time, and a few other strong drivers like Jani, Premat, Carroll, JM López, Piquet Jr, plus Pantano and Bruni who had already a bit of F1 experience. It was still quite impressive and then he backed it with a good first season for Williams.

[zanquis]

I don't think you can dismiss Rosberg's GP2 title that easily, sure that was a special season that can't really be claimed as a "title on rookie season" like you can for Hamilton or Hulkenberg, but it was a good field he beat - Kovalainen who was thought a huge prospect at the time, and a few other strong drivers like Jani, Premat, Carroll, JM López, Piquet Jr, plus Pantano and Bruni who had already a bit of F1 experience. It was still quite impressive and then he backed it with a good first season for Williams.

True those good drivers where there, but most where also there in 2006 with a year experience. Making Hamiltons result more impressive.

Rosberg is very good steady driver, who imho owns most of his biggest success in racing by always staying a float when others run into trouble. Often benefiting from safety cars to great effect. He just to often does little to make me excited, but him finishing runnerup in the best car is no surprise therefor. The car.is good he makes close to no real mistakes as.long as he is not pushed.

[CurbPainter]

True those good drivers where there, but most where also there in 2006 with a year experience. Making Hamiltons result more impressive.

Rosberg is very good steady driver, who imho owns most of his biggest success in racing by always staying a float when others run into trouble. Often benefiting from safety cars to great effect. He just to often does little to make me excited, but him finishing runnerup in the best car is no surprise therefor. The car.is good he makes close to no real mistakes as.long as he is not pushed.

 

And he's not that much slower as the best, hence I would not see it as unjustified if he gets "lucky" and becomes a WDC one time (the quotation marks at lucky are there because he still works his butt off, and I would not call it actually lucky if he pulls it off one time (it would be more fruits to labour)).

[zanquis]

And he's not that much slower as the best, hence I would not see it as unjustified if he gets "lucky" and becomes a WDC one time (the quotation marks at lucky are there because he still works his butt off, and I would not call it actually lucky if he pulls it off one time (it would be more fruits to labour)).

In many ways the battle is a bit like Senna vs Prost. The fast driver vs the stable driver. But where Rosberg is not enough of a challenge on speed to Hamilton as Prost was to Senna. And with cars being more reliable the advantage goes to the faster driver here.

[Marklar]

In many ways the battle is a bit like Senna vs Prost. The fast driver vs the stable driver. But where Rosberg is not enough of a challenge on speed to Hamilton as Prost was to Senna. And with cars being more reliable the advantage goes to the faster driver here.

Im sure that Rosberg is more stable than Hamilton (stable means for me regarding the personal life and if its affecting you mentally). But was Prost more stable than Senna?No.

 

If you mean more consistency: I'm sure that Prost had more consistency than Senna. But Rosberg is more inconsistent than Hamilton.

 

This battle is reminding me more of Häkkinen/DC. In 80-90 % of the races Mika had the upper hand, had DC a great day and Mika a mediocre he beat him on some occasions. The same is the case with Rosberg/Hamilton.

Edited by Marklar, 19 August 2015 - 11:56.

[sennafan24]

If you mean more consistency: I'm sure that Prost had more consistency than Senna. But Rosberg is more inconsistent than Hamilton.

Depends on what you mean by consistency. Senna was consistently quicker than Prost. However, Senna did get caught up in more racing incidents than Prost.  

 

During their time together as teammates, they raced under the best of 11 results points system, which changed the context of how they raced (I.E in 1988, race wins mattered more than points finishes). The 1989 WDC is distorted by Senna's woeful reliability, which even with accountability for racing incidents, ended up being the deciding factor in the WDC.

 

Would we say Nico was the more consistent driver during the first half of 2014? In my opinion, no. Reliability distorted the results. Nico achieved the more consistent results, but was not more consistent in terms of performance.

 

Edited: For clarity

Edited by sennafan24, 19 August 2015 - 16:06.

[PlatenGlass]

I don't think you can dismiss Rosberg's GP2 title that easily, sure that was a special season that can't really be claimed as a "title on rookie season" like you can for Hamilton or Hulkenberg, but it was a good field he beat - Kovalainen who was thought a huge prospect at the time, and a few other strong drivers like Jani, Premat, Carroll, JM López, Piquet Jr, plus Pantano and Bruni who had already a bit of F1 experience. It was still quite impressive and then he backed it with a good first season for Williams.

I think people forget that teams are important in formulas other than F1. Rosberg drove for ART, which was definitely the team to beat and it was also the team Hamilton drove for the next year. Opportunity counts for a lot.

[noikeee]

Ok, but it's still equal cars. And it's fair to say ART might've had an edge in the beginning, but as we look over the history of the series nowadays champions seem to come from all over the grid from plenty of different teams, so I don't think teams matter a huge amount.

 

And it goes both ways as a lot of ART's success is due to the fact they've had some of the best drivers the championship has spawned - Hamilton, Hulkenberg, Rosberg, Vandoorne, Bianchi, Buemi...

[autosportfan]

Most surprised about Button and Massa.... outside the list Ricciardo too...

But credit to all three for proving me wrong.

[Rhardrks]

Only FA ... if Merc keeps up its dominance again next year - and that is a real possibility, LH is on course to catch and pass SV on all statistical measurements. 4 titles, more wins, already has more poles ... if it keep up like this for another 18 months its not gonna be close between them on wins and poles.

 

Amazingly, FA has been the best driver of the past 10 years but he has been overshadowed in terms of stats by both FA and LH ... show how little stats mean.... but in 20 years time I am going to have trouble explaining to young folks that actually FA was the best of them all in this era not matter what the record books say.

 

Of course he's been overshadowed in terms of stats, they have driven better cars than him over that period. It's easy to explain, F1 is all about the car, always has been and even more so now.

Remember Schumacher in 2005, from superman in 2004 he went to looking like a chump for most races that year(not due to his driving skill). He was lucky he rarely had a bad car. When has LH had a bad car, for 8 races in 2009. That's an awful small amount for 9 years in F1, even less than Schumi.
 

Edited by Rhardrks, 20 August 2015 - 02:00.

[Mekola]

Jose Maria Lopez and his now twice WTCC championships. F1 is still in time to have him in the grid

[Wheels23]

Would say Button winning. 2009 was pretty forgettable. 

 

Vettel has become so underrated these days. Apparently it is a bad thing to win in an amazing car. In terms of social media and stuff. 

Edited by Wheels23, 12 November 2015 - 13:27.

[messy]

Massa and Button. I went for Massa, because when he debuted to not that much fanfare in 2002, he looked pretty awful. Quick at times, but pretty much unable not to mess up badly every few laps and not really standing out next to Heidfeld. When he was ditched in 2003 in favour of Frentzen it wasn't a surprise. I suppose his return and eventually finishing as runner-up in 2008 after beating Raikkonen pretty soundly was a pretty nice story really. Someone like Gutierrez can look at Massa and feel pretty hopeful that it can happen. Never saw much in him to suggest a race winner let alone the guy who went wheel to wheel with Hamilton in 2008 and would have been deserving champion.

 

Button, you always sort of knew had the potential with the right car, Massa was a surprise.

[Jon83]

Probably Felipe - he was desperately close to the WDC in 2008. Sure, they had a great car but some of his performances were brilliant. His pole lap in Singapore was brilliant. I remember before the camera shot to him Martin Brundle saying something like 'Massa is on a seemingly incredible lap'

 

Shame what happened in the race.

 

The others on the list - no. Rosberg is a very good driver but has one of the most dominant cars the grid has ever seen. The others all showed promising signs before their success, so it wasn't such a surprise.