475 replies to this topic

[Rinehart]

Here's a question (mods might think its better in another thread).

 

Would Ferrari trade works spec engines with Red Bull, for Verstappen (in place of Kimi)? 

 

Personally as there is no evidence that Verstappen is better than Vettel, I think not. 

[Danuthair]

Here's a question (mods might think its better in another thread).

 

Would Ferrari trade works spec engines with Red Bull, for Verstappen (in place of Kimi)? 

 

Personally as there is no evidence that Verstappen is better than Vettel, I think not. 

I think you are clearly over valuing Verstappen.   

[TurnOffTheLights]

Would Ferrari trade works spec engines with Red Bull, for Verstappen (in place of Kimi)? 

No. Why should they? They don't want anybody else than Kimi for next year, they've made that one clear often enough. Team harmony, continuity and so on.

Plus: I'm not even sure, if Verstappen would score more points than Kimi. Ferrari is a lot different than Toro Rosso and competing with Vettel is a lot different than competing with Sainz.

If Ferrari really were interested in Verstappen (and I doubt they are), they could easily offer him a contract for 2017 or 2018 (or whenever his RedBull contract ends) without having to supply Red Bull.

Edited by TurnOffTheLights, 02 November 2015 - 11:00.

[sopa]

Personally I believe Bottas would be an upgrade over Raikkonen too. Yeah, Bottas may not be stellar, but at least he is a good #2 driver. Kimi isn't even that. I know it sounds harsh, but what can you do. Raikkonen is making heavy weather of beating Bottas this year in WDC, despite superior car!

 

Some people are acting like it is damn hard to find replacement for Raikkonen, but it is not. His performance levels are not really that good. Ferrari has been way too conservative if not to say a bit lazy in retaining him.

Edited by sopa, 02 November 2015 - 11:04.

[TurnOffTheLights]

Yeah, Bottas may not be stellar, but at least he is a good #2 driver. Kimi isn't even that. I know it sounds harsh, but what can you do. Raikkonen is making heavy weather of beating Bottas this year in WDC, despite superior car!

I think that's a little bit of a simplification and misjudgement of the whole situation.

Nico Rosberg is making heavy weather of beating Vettel this year in WDC, despite superior car. Is Rosberg not good enough for being a #2 driver, too? 

[sopa]

I think that's a little bit of a simplification and misjudgement of the whole situation.

Nico Rosberg is making heavy weather of beating Vettel this year in WDC, despite superior car. Is Rosberg not good enough for being a #2 driver, too? 

 

At least Rosberg is not crashing regularly. So from this point of view yeah he is a good #2 driver, and better than Raikkonen.

 

Also beating Vettel is harder than beating Bottas.

[2150]

Amazing really. He has been mediocre for 2 years and still gets an extension. What are they smoking?

[Rinehart]

I think you are clearly over valuing Verstappen.   

Well that wasn't the plan. It was supposed to be about how Ferrari value him over the next say 5 years in order to get him now via a trade. 

[YoungGun]

Kvyat shouldn't be over looked either. For someone who was not given half a chance by his own team he is for sure proving he is more than capable.

Edited by YoungGun, 02 November 2015 - 11:19.

[TurnOffTheLights]

At least Rosberg is not crashing regularly. So from this point of view yeah he is a good #2 driver, and better than Raikkonen.

 

Also beating Vettel is harder than beating Bottas.

It's hard to crash if you're only racing your teammate 99% of the time at the front of the field and are not allowed to crash into him. 

You're right in pointing out that beating Vettel is harder than beating Bottas. But I think the gap Mercedes -> Ferrari has been larger this year than the gap Ferrari -> Williams, so Nico Rosberg should still easily beat Vettel. Especially, if he doesn't regularly lose points due to crashing (or mechanical failures) like Raikkönen does.

At the end of this season Räikkönen will have the highest points score for a Ferrari #2 driver since Massa in 2010 - and he can still beat that one (Massa 2010: 144, Räikkönen 2015 2 races to go: 123)

[noikeee]

It's hard to crash if you're only racing your teammate 99% of the time at the front of the field and are not allowed to crash into him. 

You're right in pointing out that beating Vettel is harder than beating Bottas. But I think the gap Mercedes -> Ferrari has been larger this year than the gap Ferrari -> Williams, so Nico Rosberg should still easily beat Vettel. Especially, if he doesn't regularly lose points due to crashing (or mechanical failures) like Raikkönen does.

At the end of this season Räikkönen will have the highest points score for a Ferrari #2 driver since Massa in 2010 - and he can still beat that one (Massa 2010: 144, Räikkönen 2015 2 races to go: 123)

Don't agree with this reasoning at all.

 

- Point taken on being easier to crash when you've got cars around you, but Nico's had years and years as a midfielder yet has always been regarded as a very safe pair of hands.

 

- Nico shouldn't be on Vettel's ballpark of points neither, but Vettel's been maximizing results all season long; as opposed to Bottas and Massa taking swings of form, with Williams also squandering plenty of results through their team ****ups. AND their car hasn't been 3rd best all season long, there's been weekends they've been nowhere.

 

- Of course Kimi's going to have the highest top score of a #2 since 2010, this is the strongest (or at least most consistent) Ferrari car since 2010. He's certainly still quicker than Massa at his worst (Massa's form on early 2012 was extraordinarily ****), but has completely lost the plot. His pace is okay but never anything special anymore, he makes far more mistakes than he ever did, and bears little resemblance to the world class driver I once supported. He could and should've been replaced, any of the current upper-midfielder drivers are capable of doing better, and would be willing to drive for them at a low-risk short-term contract, the only thing I can say in Ferrari's defence is they couldn't possibly have anticipated the amount of mistakes Kimi's been doing since he's been re-signed.

[Nonesuch]

Also beating Vettel is harder than beating Bottas.

 

How so? Building a gap to Vettel is easier for Rosberg as the point-gaps at the front of the field are bigger than in the middle of the top 10 where Räikkönen and the Williams drivers are. It also doesn't help Räikkönen that only Mercedes has a better reliability record than Williams. No doubt Räikkönen has pulled some dumb moves, but he also retired while 2nd in Hungary - for example.

[ensign14]

Kvyat shouldn't be over looked either. For someone who was not given half a chance by his own team he is for sure proving he is more than capable.

 

He's closer to Ricciardo than Vettel ever was.  Yet I am predicting that the Autocourse top 10 for the year will have Vettel 3rd and Kvyat 8th at best.

[OO7]

- Nico shouldn't be on Vettel's ballpark of points neither, but Vettel's been maximizing results all season long; as opposed to Bottas and Massa taking swings of form, with Williams also squandering plenty of results through their team ****ups. AND their car hasn't been 3rd best all season long, there's been weekends they've been nowhere.

Nico has lost a fair few points due to reliability, also Kimi really isn't taking any points off Vettel.

[Junky]

He's closer to Ricciardo than Vettel ever was.  Yet I am predicting that the Autocourse top 10 for the year will have Vettel 3rd and Kvyat 8th at best.

He's closer to Ricciardo than Vettel ever was.  Yet I am predicting that the Autocourse top 10 for the year will have Vettel 3rd and Kvyat 8th at best.

I'm pretty sure that Vettel will be in 2nd in every top-10 analyses, just beaten by Hamilton.

[Henri Greuter]

He's closer to Ricciardo than Vettel ever was.  Yet I am predicting that the Autocourse top 10 for the year will have Vettel 3rd and Kvyat 8th at best.

 

 

I expect Hamilton to be rated first. Buth who do you think to be 2nd instead of Vettel? Seb is pretty next best this season and given the criteria for the autocourse top 10, I think Vettel outperformed Rosberg handsomely this year? So I wonder what your prediction for #2 is.

 

Henri

[noikeee]

He's closer to Ricciardo than Vettel ever was.  Yet I am predicting that the Autocourse top 10 for the year will have Vettel 3rd and Kvyat 8th at best.

No doubt Kimi's helping him look good, but I think there's a very strong argument for claiming Vettel's driving much better than last year. I think he deserves better than 3rd, possibly 1st even.

 

Kvyat's starting to look like a proper quality driver too, yes. There's raw edges there, I think he's still lacking a little in racecraft and consistency but the pace is there and that's the most important thing at his age. I'd probably hire him ahead of either of the Williams boys, for example. I've argued this in a few threads but it's worth repeating - it's often forgotten Red Bull had the monopoly on poaching the best of the best of the junior series drivers for years. People only don't realize how good they are because they've all been paired against each others. Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat, Vergne, Verstappen, they're all better than half the grid. Even Buemi who was one of their most baffling appointments, destroyed Bourdais the same way Vettel did and is having an excellent career outside of F1.

[Disgrace]

Ferrari need a new ethos for hiring drivers. They haven't had two competitive drivers since the first half of 2010. Massa was poor for over three seasons and Kimi, barring a miracle return to something resembling form, is set to waste another three. Kimi looks utterly finished.

[dreamer]

Ferrari need a new ethos for hiring drivers. They haven't had two competitive drivers since the first half of 2010. Massa was poor for over three seasons and Kimi, barring a miracle return to something resembling form, is set to waste another three. Kimi looks utterly finished.

 

There was a big step forward for the team this year in many aspects. They are in the right direction and both drivers have played a role in this. The atmosphere is good, the team is working as a team again and the development of the car seems to be at last in the right direction. 
 

[TurnOffTheLights]

 

- Point taken on being easier to crash when you've got cars around you, but Nico's had years and years as a midfielder yet has always been regarded as a very safe pair of hands.

 

 

As has Kimi. Until 2014. You probably remember him finish every single race after his comeback before being stopped in his 31st consecutive race by a mechanical failure? Has he just "lost it" coincidentally after 2013?

And I also remember Rosberg having his fair share of contacts with others in midfield cars, too.

 

- Nico shouldn't be on Vettel's ballpark of points neither, but Vettel's been maximizing results all season long; as opposed to Bottas and Massa taking swings of form, with Williams also squandering plenty of results through their team ****ups. AND their car hasn't been 3rd best all season long, there's been weekends they've been nowhere.

 

And weekends, they've been clear 2nd best team in front of Ferrari.

Vettel managed to beat both Mercedes drivers in the same qualifying once in the whole season.

Bottas managed to beat both Ferrari drivers in the same qualifying 4 times this year, Massa did it 2 times.

And I rate Vettel as a much better driver over one quick lap than both of them.

So for me it has been Vettel alone, who made it look like Ferrari was in a different league than Williams this year and gave us the illusion Ferrari would fight against Mercedes for P1 more often than against Williams for P3.

Under these circumstances it's not that bad, if Räikkönen fails to finish 4th at the end of the season. I don't think many of the available drivers would have done much better than Kimi in his place - all of them have made mistakes this year, too. But if you make a mistake in a Ferrari, that's much more highlighted and remembered. Especially if you're Kimi Räikkönen.

In the end I think we should just agree to disagree and see what the future holds for Kimi and Ferrari. As a Vettel supporter I hope Kimi will be closer to him and less error-prone next year, so that both might be able to really fight Mercedes.

Edited by TurnOffTheLights, 02 November 2015 - 14:08.

[topical]

I expect Hamilton to be rated first. Buth who do you think to be 2nd instead of Vettel? Seb is pretty next best this season and given the criteria for the autocourse top 10, I think Vettel outperformed Rosberg handsomely this year? So I wonder what your prediction for #2 is.

 

Henri

 

Is Vettel really driving that much better this year or is he just paired with a weaker teammate and benefitting from a much improved Ferrari? Would like to see how he fares against a Ricciardo or Verstappen, but Ferrari do like to treat their No 1 driver with kid gloves, at least until the relationship sours, then they can be pretty ruthless, as both Alonso and even Schumacher learned.

 

As for Raikkonen being retained? Makes no sense at all. He's old, slow and not even cheap.

[Marklar]

Here's a question (mods might think its better in another thread).

 

Would Ferrari trade works spec engines with Red Bull, for Verstappen (in place of Kimi)? 

 

Personally as there is no evidence that Verstappen is better than Vettel, I think not. 

I doubt that.

 

I'm pretty sure that Ferrari is interested in Verstappen. But they have Vettel first of all. And if Red Bull survives, Verstappen will stay there until 2017/18 at least. So they could get Verstappen in 2019 for free and maybe even as a successor for Vettel. Even better: if RB leaves, than they can get him even now without any conditions.

[Nonesuch]

As for Raikkonen being retained? Makes no sense at all. He's old, slow and not even cheap.

 
Räikkönen's average finishing position still lines him up 4th, right where he should be as a driver of the 2nd fastest car. Obviously he shouldn't have crashed in Austria and Russia, and obviously he should have done better on numerous occasions. Vettel has been much better, again obviously, scoring 67% of the total points of the team. Only Nasr and Verstappen have dominated their team-mates more comprehensively in terms of points scored. But again: the points-gap between 1st and 3rd is 10; almost same as the gap between 3rd and 8th.

[Henri Greuter]

Is Vettel really driving that much better this year or is he just paired with a weaker teammate and benefitting from a much improved Ferrari? Would like to see how he fares against a Ricciardo or Verstappen, but Ferrari do like to treat their No 1 driver with kid gloves, at least until the relationship sours, then they can be pretty ruthless, as both Alonso and even Schumacher learned.

 

As for Raikkonen being retained? Makes no sense at all. He's old, slow and not even cheap.

 

 

Well, at least compared with Rosberg, then I think Vettel did better this season without a Mercedes like Rosberg had. So whatever the rating for Vettel will be, Rosberg can't be above him.

But when someone predicts Vettel to be rated third, then I wonder who for this person will be the second place winner. I know Autocourse is a British publication but if they dare to rank Button second thn I think this to be the most rediculous rating ever, only explainable with pure patriotism.

Honestly, I can't think about any other driver who deserves to be put between Hamilton and Vettel in a top 10 over the entire season, based on available equipment, team and performance with what he had to his disposal.

Neither can I make up a ranking behind Hamilton& Vettel, other than knowing that both Williams and Red Bull drivers will be within the top 10, as well as Rosberg and Verstappen. But in which ranking. I have no idea.

 

 

Henri

[Zava]

Is Vettel really driving that much better this year or is he just paired with a weaker teammate and benefitting from a much improved Ferrari? Would like to see how he fares against a Ricciardo or Verstappen, but Ferrari do like to treat their No 1 driver with kid gloves, at least until the relationship sours, then they can be pretty ruthless, as both Alonso and even Schumacher learned.

 

As for Raikkonen being retained? Makes no sense at all. He's old, slow and not even cheap.

so Vettel after 4 WDCs and all that is still not a benchmark, but 18 year old Verstappen with 2 years in single seaters is.

 

I'll get my coat.

[Gilles4Ever]

And this thread now has very little to do with the topic title and is unlikely to ever get back there.