955 replies to this topic

[TomNokoe]

-number of laps remaining
-tyre choice at next stop
-front wing adjustment

WTF

[KingTiger]

Those make zero sense. The driver can't say what tires or wing adjustments he wants? 

[TomNokoe]

KingTiger, on 17 Mar 2016 - 00:41, said:

Those make zero sense. The driver can't say what tires or wing adjustments he wants?

I suppose it means the team can't ask or prompt. Driver has to say himself, perhaps??

[Marklar]

That would be the new list

1.       Indication of a critical problem with the car, e.g. puncture warning or damage.
2.       Indication of a problem with a competitor’s car.
3.       Instruction to enter the pit lane in order to fix or retire the car.
4.       Marshalling information (yellow flag, red flag, race start aborted or other similar instructions or information from race control).
5.       Wet track, oil or debris in certain corners.
6.       Instructions to swap position with other drivers.
7.       Acknowledgement that a driver message has been heard.
8.       Lap or sector time detail.
9.       Lap time detail of a competitor.
10.     Gaps to a competitor during a practice session or race.
11.     “Push hard”, “push now”, “you will be racing xx” or similar.
12.     Helping with warning of traffic during a practice session or race.
13.     Giving the gaps between cars in qualifying so as to better position the car for a clear lap.
14.     Tyre choice at the next pit stop.
15.     Number of laps a competitor has done on a set of tyres during a race.
16.     Tyre specification of a competitor.
17.     Information concerning a competitor’s likely race strategy.
18.     Safety Car window.
19.     Driving breaches by team driver or competitor, e.g. missing chicanes, running off track, time penalty will be applied etc.
20.     Notification that DRS is enabled or disabled.
21.     Dealing with a DRS system failure.
22.     Change of front wing position at the next pit stop.
23.     Oil transfer.
24.     When to enter the pits.
25.     Reminders to check for white lines, bollards, weighbridge lights when entering or leaving the pits.
26.     Reminders about track limits.
27.     Passing on messages from race control.
28.     Information concerning damage to the car.
29.     Number of laps remaining.
30.     Test sequence information during practice sessions, e.g. aero-mapping.
31.     Weather information.

 

Edit: AMuS claims that 29. is stil allowed though

Edited by Marklar, 17 March 2016 - 01:29.

[goingthedistance]

Not so keen on several of those, they've gone too far now. It removes the likelihood of the smarter drivers out-strategising the dafter ones. They need some info, just not too much. It's all about balance.

[tigerbalm]

Looking forward to qualifying and the race. It will be interesting to see how all these changes (qualifying method, radio ban & advanced tyre selections) pan out

[ANF]

Number of facepalms remaining: STAWT

[RedOne]

They've changed the rules so many damn times already this year, this is my reaction to anything that comes from them now..

Edited by RedOne, 17 March 2016 - 03:12.

[Archer]

They have lost their mind, the idea was right, but as usual they do a mess with the implementation. Also, I don't understand why now the drivers have to learn 200 adjustments before the race, those adjustments should be programmed in the ECU before the race to free the drivers of this. The drivers should have to be focused on driving, not engineering the car or nursing the tyres. They only should have to change brake balance and very few more.

[alfa1]

Its a conspiracy 90 years in the making.

 

When Alfred Neubauer invented his system of flags in 1926, The Powers That Be were really pissed off with the Mercedes team advantage.

 

Now, they have finally figured out a way of banning his driver communication flag signals. Nobody ever accused the FIA of being quick.

[Lee Nicolle]

Buttoneer, on 20 Aug 2015 - 18:35, said:

The radio is a safety device. It allows teams to communicate to drivers about things that could potentially kill them, or prevent them from killing someone else. The cars should not be allowed on the circuit without a working radio or other means of immediate communication.

Be nice, the radio is a coaching device primarily these days. That coupled with the telemetry makes the car near radio controlled.Go to setting XYZ, etc etc. Less messages and far less settings on the car.

IF the driver thinks they have a problem stop and have it checked out.

Actually really I have no real problem with radios providing basic info is passed to the driver and the driver can communicate any potential problems. eg the car is loose, add air, soften bars, more rear wing etc. Teams should be able to accept that info and maybe tell the driver gaps and when to pit.

Ban the telemetry to the pits, let the DRIVER make the decisions and far less controls in the car. On occasion you see them scrolling through menus at 200mph. Is that safe? No not at all.

Brake balance, a fuel read out  and maybe a lap time  plus manual guages for oil pressure, temperatures, etc. And the driver makes the decision.

Just like most of us mortals do at hundreds of racemeets every year world wide.

[Timstr11]

So now 'Box this lap' will become much more authorative.
Driver will have no clue about what's happening around him so no point questioning anything. I can't believe people agree this is the way forward.

[HoldenRT]

All of this makes me cringe.  Allow them to say whatever the f they want.. just make the racing, so that if someone is faster, they finish infront and win the race.  It won't matter what is said on radio, no words can help.. "drive faster".. "I'm trying.. I'm going as fast as I can.." "It's not fast enough, drive faster, your teammate is 1sec quicker"..

 

Those were the days..

 

And these days, everything is so bottlenecked, micro managed and handicapped that words on the radio can actually make a difference.  They aren't "going as fast as they can" in the first place.  Cearly there is a better solution.. MORE micro management.

 

It's so overly complicated and ridiculous I can't even bring myself to read that list.  Hopefully the commentators can care enough to learn about it and decode it for the audience during the race broadcast.

Edited by HoldenRT, 17 March 2016 - 07:25.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Quote

 

Information regarding pit stops can only be made on the lap that the driver is supposed to be coming in – not before

 

I wonder where that stupid idea came from??

 

Oh, wait a second  

http://forums.autosp...-3#entry7437851

[alfa1]

HoldenRT, on 17 Mar 2016 - 07:21, said:

 

It's so overly complicated and ridiculous I can't even bring myself to read that list.

 

Most of the new rules that come out recently I cant be bothered learning because:

1. They're excruciatingly boring in their micromanagement of how everyone has to behave. Gone are the days of sensible rules like "The race starts when the red light goes out", now we're down into stupid garbage like giving back a set of a specific compound of tyres at the end of a specific practice session, or prohibiting the notification of gaps between cars in qualifying so as to better position the car for a clear lap.

2. They'll probably change it again halfway through the year anyway.

[femi]

Marklar, on 17 Mar 2016 - 00:48, said:

That would be the new list

1.       Indication of a critical problem with the car, e.g. puncture warning or damage.
2.       Indication of a problem with a competitor’s car.
3.       Instruction to enter the pit lane in order to fix or retire the car.
4.       Marshalling information (yellow flag, red flag, race start aborted or other similar instructions or information from race control).
5.       Wet track, oil or debris in certain corners.
6.       Instructions to swap position with other drivers.
7.       Acknowledgement that a driver message has been heard.
8.       Lap or sector time detail.
9.       Lap time detail of a competitor.
10.     Gaps to a competitor during a practice session or race.
11.     “Push hard”, “push now”, “you will be racing xx” or similar.
12.     Helping with warning of traffic during a practice session or race.
13.     Giving the gaps between cars in qualifying so as to better position the car for a clear lap.
14.     Tyre choice at the next pit stop.
15.     Number of laps a competitor has done on a set of tyres during a race.
16.     Tyre specification of a competitor.
17.     Information concerning a competitor’s likely race strategy.
18.     Safety Car window.
19.     Driving breaches by team driver or competitor, e.g. missing chicanes, running off track, time penalty will be applied etc.
20.     Notification that DRS is enabled or disabled.
21.     Dealing with a DRS system failure.
22.     Change of front wing position at the next pit stop.
23.     Oil transfer.
24.     When to enter the pits.
25.     Reminders to check for white lines, bollards, weighbridge lights when entering or leaving the pits.
26.     Reminders about track limits.
27.     Passing on messages from race control.
28.     Information concerning damage to the car.
29.     Number of laps remaining.
30.     Test sequence information during practice sessions, e.g. aero-mapping.
31.     Weather information.

 

Edit: AMuS claims that 29. is stil allowed though

I actually see ways of how teams can get around a significant number of the listed "banned" exchanges and still be legal and I am sure these smart people will surely figure them out. Its just that it might take a few races before they are perfected between team and driver.

[Anja]

I thought the original list wasn't that bad. Then I read the new one. It's so overdone and stupid. Typical F1.

[famousfive]

Sad because the banned messages are the most interesting messages we hear. I remember the RB years I loved listening to Rocky and Vettel shadowing other drivers. Oh and no more" push Hammer time" too    (Not that there was much of that in 2015) That said teams are not stupid they will have codes for the banned messages. 

[Buttoneer]

famousfive, on 17 Mar 2016 - 10:18, said:

Sad because the banned messages are the most interesting messages we hear. I remember the RB years I loved listening to Rocky and Vettel shadowing other drivers. Oh and no more" push Hammer time" too    (Not that there was much of that in 2015) That said teams are not stupid they will have codes for the banned messages.

Item 11 suggests that Hammer Time is still possible.

[Niceman]

I can see the logic in these and they should improve the racing.  We should no longer here stuff like 'ok X is 7 seconds in front of you but he is on the Y compound so you are not racing him'.

Edited by Niceman, 17 March 2016 - 11:17.

[femi]

Niceman, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:16, said:

I can see the logic in these and they should improve the racing.  We should no longer here stuff like 'ok X is 7 seconds in front of you but he is on the Y compound so you are not racing him'.

That in my view is exactly the kind of info that should be allowed, not banned!

[Rurouni]

The drivers can say anything, right? So if a driver wants a front wing adjustment, he should still be able to get it or not? Can a team answer a request, like if the driver wants a FW adjustment, then the team say "Ok"? Can a driver say that he wants to pit by the end of this lap and the team say "Ok" or "Negative"?

[famousfive]

Buttoneer, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:03, said:

Item 11 suggests that Hammer Time is still possible.

 

Ah okay the original list from Marklar crossed out number 11. 

[ANF]

Buttoneer, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:03, said:

Item 11 suggests that Hammer Time is still possible.

"Hammer Time" is a coded message and is likely to be considered a breach of Article 20.1 of the Sporting Regulations and will be reported to the stewards accordingly.

[DaddyCool]

This is just a another gimmick to to create more chaos. Why even bother to fix the fundamental problems when you can pull stunts like these?

[Marklar]

ANF, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:38, said:

"Hammer Time" is a coded message and is likely to be considered a breach of Article 20.1 of the Sporting Regulations and will be reported to the stewards accordingly.

When they first came up to ban all these things for 2015 (which they didn't in the end, but they intended to ban the same things as now) Whiting said the following about this specific case

 

Quote

 

When asked whether Lewis Hamilton's trademark 'It's Hammer Time' message would be legal in 2015, Whiting said: "I think that is 'push hard'... so to be discussed.

"That is not for this current crop of rules. But now we have got a little bit more time we can discuss this thing with teams and 'Hammer Time' might come in to it."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115941

 

So it will be likely allowed I guess.

Edited by Marklar, 17 March 2016 - 12:22.

[Niceman]

femi, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:23, said:

That in my view is exactly the kind of info that should be allowed, not banned!

 

But it's that kind of communication that leads to a 'team managed' race where even drivers with poor race awareness will just drive to a delta rather than the situation that they can observe.  The good drivers will still read what's going on and come out on top.

 

Rurouni, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:26, said:

The drivers can say anything, right? So if a driver wants a front wing adjustment, he should still be able to get it or not? Can a team answer a request, like if the driver wants a FW adjustment, then the team say "Ok"? Can a driver say that he wants to pit by the end of this lap and the team say "Ok" or "Negative"?

 

Yes, so it's for the drivers to lead the strategy/changes and again, it will work in favour of the smarter, more aware driver rather than it all being run by a 'process sheet' on the pitwall.

[Jon83]

They drive to delta times because of the ridiculous engine, fuel, gearbox and tyre restrictions the pinnacle of motorsport is operating under.

Edited by Jon83, 17 March 2016 - 12:46.

[noikeee]

This is dumb. Alonso and Magnussen have spoken out against it and they're absolutely right. Imagine yourself in the place of the driver, not only you have to think about the actual driving, which is bloody hard and takes up a huge mental space as you try to absolutely optimize the tiniest bits of balance in hundreths of a second; PLUS all the tweaks you're required to do in-car; you now have to remember an extremely complicated ruleset of radio communications whenever you open your mouth to talk to your team. In fact they'll now need to remember the very strict specifications for strategy the team has instructed to you pre-race. Which might well end up making the races less dynamic and more rehearsed in advance.

 

Couple this with the way the cars drive now, and of course it's becoming not fun at all for them in the car. Hell, driving a LMP1 (which used to be much more like a "job", driving for the team whereas in F1 you drove for yourself) might be more fun now.

 

Either just ban the radio already, ban live temetry, or let them speak whatever they want, these hugely complicated compromise solutions F1 always comes up with benefit nobody.

Edited by noikeee, 17 March 2016 - 12:48.

[LeClerc]

At least one driver is welcoming the clampdown:

 

[famousfive]

Rurouni, on 17 Mar 2016 - 11:26, said:

The drivers can say anything, right? So if a driver wants a front wing adjustment, he should still be able to get it or not? Can a team answer a request, like if the driver wants a FW adjustment, then the team say "Ok"? Can a driver say that he wants to pit by the end of this lap and the team say "Ok" or "Negative"?

 

Most drivers actually make the call for the wing adjustment based on their feel- so pretty pointless banning team instructions. 

[noikeee]

Also, does this mean team orders are allowed (and the only reason they are, is that they were deemed impossible to ban), but right about every other communication regarding strategy is banned? 

 

Or are team orders banned again now too? I can't keep up with the rule changes.

[Marklar]

noikeee, on 17 Mar 2016 - 12:57, said:

Also, does this mean team orders are allowed (and the only reason they are, is that they were deemed impossible to ban), but right about every other communication regarding strategy is banned? 

 

Or are team orders banned again now too? I can't keep up with the rule changes.

Nope, they are allowed

 

Instructions to swap position with other drivers.

[noikeee]

Marklar, on 17 Mar 2016 - 12:57, said:

Nope, they are allowed

 

Instructions to swap position with other drivers.

Amazing. So they can say Nico please get the f- out of the way of Lewis we need Lewis to win, but they can't ask him which tyres he wants on the next stop?

 

Only F1 could ever come up with something like that.

[Anja]

LeClerc, on 17 Mar 2016 - 12:51, said:

At least one driver is welcoming the clampdown:

 

 

Ah, if Kimi starts performing well this year (one can dream, right?) we already know why.

[Nonesuch]

noikeee, on 17 Mar 2016 - 13:03, said:

Only F1 could ever come up with something like that.

 

Those clamouring for the FIA to involve themselves in everyone else's business seem to constantly forget what kind of people make and then administer these rules.

[Seanspeed]

noikeee, on 17 Mar 2016 - 12:47, said:

In fact they'll now need to remember the very strict specifications for strategy the team has instructed to you pre-race. Which might well end up making the races less dynamic and more rehearsed in advance.

Exactly.  Drivers will be unable to adjust to changing strategies during the race because the team cant tell them what their strategy is anymore, basically.  And they cant know what strategies other drivers are on.  So they'll simply have to drive to a pre-determined strategy and cross their fingers.  

 

Absolutely insane. 

[famousfive]

noikeee, on 17 Mar 2016 - 12:57, said:

Also, does this mean team orders are allowed (and the only reason they are, is that they were deemed impossible to ban), but right about every other communication regarding strategy is banned? 

 

Or are team orders banned again now too? I can't keep up with the rule changes.

 

Team orders are allowed and have been for sometime so therefore radio communication to allow a team mate through is perfectly fine. 

[RedOne]

Its so stupid it's not even funny how badly thought out these rules are. Wish someone could slap some sense into the idiots that came up with this.

Edited by RedOne, 17 March 2016 - 14:15.

[Retrofly]

goingthedistance, on 17 Mar 2016 - 01:26, said:

Not so keen on several of those, they've gone too far now. It removes the likelihood of the smarter drivers out-strategising the dafter ones. They need some info, just not too much. It's all about balance.

 

They should give them a maths test after the race, for each correct answer they get 1 second removed from their race times. Then we will finally find out who is the smartest driver.

[Kristian]

Can they use pitboards though, like the good old days? 

[femi]

Niceman, on 17 Mar 2016 - 12:28, said:

But it's that kind of communication that leads to a 'team managed' race where even drivers with poor race awareness will just drive to a delta rather than the situation that they can observe.  The good drivers will still read what's going on and come out on top

I don't understand knowing what tyre type other drivers are running contribute to managed driving though

[Admire]

Couldnt the teams just start using code...like drug dealers

[BillBald]

Are drivers allowed to say anything they want to?

 

Are drivers allowed to ask any question? If so, what replies are the pitwall allowed to make?

[Buttoneer]

'Leave me alone'

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Now Imagine Kimi Raikkonen:

 

"Don't leave me alone, I don't know what I'm doing"  

 

 

On a serious note instead of those long list, I suggest FIA to prepare exact and precise sentences for team's pitwall crew.

[Timstr11]

https://twitter.com/...518249276870657

See video from 3.59

It confirms what I thought. Drivers and fans will now be kept out of the loop on strategy change conversations. If there's a change, drivers will just be told to come in. Period.
No further information.

[Marklar]

So Charlie says that they want to put the responsibility on the driver, but on the same time he is admitting that the team is basically dictating the strategy (even more than before).

 

Go home Charlie.

[ardbeg]

They should just have banned the encryption. Let them speak. Let us hear.

[GoldenColt]

 

And all these rules are busted.