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Big team comeback


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#1 Dunc

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:51

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/120373

 

I was quite intrigued by this line from Checo:

 

 

"But I believe my results in the past year and this year if I have strong results, then the opportunity could come back in the future to go to a top team."

 

Ronnie Peterson, Riccardo Patrese and Nelson Piquet all had good form followed by runs of bad form but were later resigned into top teams of their day (Lotus, Benetton and Williams), do you think it is still possible to do this today?   I hope it is but I kind of get the impression that if you blow your big chance in F1 now you've effectively had it.



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 12:59

Depends on how much you have f*** up at the top team and how much you improved afterwards to compensate the bad impression.

If we take Perez case: McLaren didnt resigned him because he apparently had the wrong attitude,was bad in giving feedbacks and generally in talking with the engineers. In a competitive field like we have it, this was Perez one and only chance in a top team.

Now we take Magnussen: McLaren didnt resigned him because Honda wanted two superstars, but he generally made a good impression. He could get a new chance.

But in any case I think it is more difficult now

#3 realracer200

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:04

Not to nitpick, but when exactly has Nelson Piquet had a run of bad form? For most of the 80s his driving was very good even when the cars he was weren't so good.



#4 Spillage

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:16

Yes, I think it's possible. Look at Grosjean - dropped after a very poor 2009, later resigned and doing a very good job. The issue is that not too many drivers nowadays get a seat in F1 at all after being ejected by a top team. It seems like nowadays if you're not a WDC-in-waiting you're out on your ear.

 

Perez, though, has to do more before anybody thinks of signing him for a top seat again. Beating him teammate would be a good place to start.



#5 tifosii

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:20

Perez is 25 years old now,still very young

He has enough time to build up reputation



#6 FerrariV12

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:32

Not to nitpick, but when exactly has Nelson Piquet had a run of bad form? For most of the 80s his driving was very good even when the cars he was weren't so good.

 

1989, basically. Well aside from the odd good run like at Silverstone. Sometimes he appeared off the boil in 1988 too. How much was down to him is debatable (Lotus were definitely on the way down) but I've watched full races from those seasons and it pops up a few times in commentary questioning him - although those comments mostly centred on his motivation rather than a loss of natural ability. Which probably explains why Benetton were willing to take him on on a relatively low basic salary with relatively large points bonuses.



#7 Collombin

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:37

1989, basically


I think you're being generous about the rest of his late 80s form.

#8 FerrariV12

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:42

I think you're being generous about the rest of his late 80s form.

 

Probably, although I did mention he was a bit off for parts of '88, and while I do believe Mansell was the stronger of the two overall in their time as teammates, I can't take away the fact he did win the title in '87.



#9 Dunc

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 13:43

Not to nitpick, but when exactly has Nelson Piquet had a run of bad form? For most of the 80s his driving was very good even when the cars he was weren't so good.

 

I would say 1988 and 89 when he was with Lotus.  I wasn't watching F1 at the time as Thundercats was more my thing then but from what I have read and seen since his time at Benneton was hailed as a return to form after bad seasons at Lotus, which was admittedly a team on the way down at the time.  When you're dealing with a triple WDC you have to expect their form to be above that of someone who has been a challenger too.


Edited by Dunc, 20 August 2015 - 13:44.


#10 Collombin

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 14:15

I can't take away the fact he did win the title in '87.


Even Piquet's strongest supporters on here seem to get embarrassed about his 87 WDC, hence the continual references to his Imola crash as justification for being outpaced. If he had won it by being better than Mansell then it wouldn't get a mention.

#11 FerrariV12

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 14:33

Even Piquet's strongest supporters on here seem to get embarrassed about his 87 WDC, hence the continual references to his Imola crash as justification for being outpaced. If he had won it by being better than Mansell then it wouldn't get a mention.

 

As a boyhood Mansell fan I feel like I shouldn't argue this one too much (as I say I believe Nigel was the stronger of the two, had more DNFs that year and missed 2 races through injury to Piquet's 1) I guess I'll just say that had Benetton hired Piquet for '88 on the back of his 1987 performances it probably wouldn't have raised many eyebrows... in 1990 it did.



#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 14:34

Piquet did seem to lose some motivation during his time at Lotus but I think it was more of a case of coinciding with Lotus' fall. When Nelson joined Lotus they were still a top team, building fast cars with good engines and winning races with Senna. It all seemed to fall apart during those years. It's not like he had to step back to a midfield team and then work his way in.

 

As for Patrese, I think his time at Alfa Romeo and return to Brabham fits more into the category of this topic. When he rejoined Brabham in 86 I'd still consider them a top team, though they were dropping back a bit. But that year they built the flawed BT55 and Bernie then sold the team so they never really recovered. But he then moved onto the reigning WCC team and stayed until that final season with Benetton.

 

I think if Perez sticks around and shows enough potential he might be lucky enough to get back into a top team but, like Patrese, I don't see him becoming a team leader and title contender.

 

Oh and I know that English isn't everyone's first language. It's "re-sign" not resign. To resign means to retire, quit or leave.



#13 ToxicEnviroment

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 14:58

1989, basically. Well aside from the odd good run like at Silverstone. Sometimes he appeared off the boil in 1988 too. How much was down to him is debatable (Lotus were definitely on the way down) but I've watched full races from those seasons and it pops up a few times in commentary questioning him - although those comments mostly centred on his motivation rather than a loss of natural ability. Which probably explains why Benetton were willing to take him on on a relatively low basic salary with relatively large points bonuses.


Piquet was TRIPPLE WC in 1989

Perez is not even a GP Winner.

#14 FerrariV12

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 15:10

Piquet was TRIPPLE WC in 1989

Perez is not even a GP Winner.

 

I wasn't comparing the two, just answering the question regarding Piquet's slump. I'm sure Piquet's past successes made Benetton think hiring him was a gamble worth taking, and a successful gamble in hindsight, but it was still a gamble. FWIW I don't see Perez getting in a leading car unless he's incumbent in a midfield team that happens to take a massive leap forward like Red Bull in '09, Williams in '79 (and arguably last year), amongst others.


Edited by FerrariV12, 20 August 2015 - 15:11.


#15 Boing 2

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 16:08

Button slid almost off the grid before bouncing back to McLaren.



#16 FerrariV12

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 17:05

Button slid almost off the grid before bouncing back to McLaren.

 

That's true, he benefitted from the thing I mentioned (can't believe I forgot about the Honda/Brawn example) about a previously midfield (or worse) car/team becoming a front runner while he was already there. Barrichello too, he looked like his career was going to fizzle out with that Honda.

 

Regazzoni got back to being a race winner with Williams in '79 the same way, while I imagine Mark Webber would have missed the boat in terms of being a GP winner had he not been at Red Bull when they went from midpack to front runners. Not to say none of those four deserved it, but besides being an obvious stand out who the best team wants to hire, often it's a case of right team, right time.


Edited by FerrariV12, 20 August 2015 - 17:05.


#17 karl100589

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 17:23

That's true, he benefitted from the thing I mentioned (can't believe I forgot about the Honda/Brawn example) about a previously midfield (or worse) car/team becoming a front runner while he was already there. Barrichello too, he looked like his career was going to fizzle out with that Honda.

 

Regazzoni got back to being a race winner with Williams in '79 the same way, while I imagine Mark Webber would have missed the boat in terms of being a GP winner had he not been at Red Bull when they went from midpack to front runners. Not to say none of those four deserved it, but besides being an obvious stand out who the best team wants to hire, often it's a case of right team, right time.

 

Clay actually did it a couple of times. Ferrari to BRM, back to Ferrari, down to Ensign and Shadow, up again with Williams before a second spell with Ensign to finish his career.

 

I know a lot of it was Clay preferring to race for 'nice people' but I did find it interesting.



#18 Dunc

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 15:46

Piquet did seem to lose some motivation during his time at Lotus but I think it was more of a case of coinciding with Lotus' fall. When Nelson joined Lotus they were still a top team, building fast cars with good engines and winning races with Senna. It all seemed to fall apart during those years. It's not like he had to step back to a midfield team and then work his way in.

 

As for Patrese, I think his time at Alfa Romeo and return to Brabham fits more into the category of this topic. When he rejoined Brabham in 86 I'd still consider them a top team, though they were dropping back a bit. But that year they built the flawed BT55 and Bernie then sold the team so they never really recovered. But he then moved onto the reigning WCC team and stayed until that final season with Benetton.

 

I think if Perez sticks around and shows enough potential he might be lucky enough to get back into a top team but, like Patrese, I don't see him becoming a team leader and title contender.

 

Oh and I know that English isn't everyone's first language. It's "re-sign" not resign. To resign means to retire, quit or leave.

I agree with you on Perez and on the need for hyphenation, sorry.  And English is my first languare :well: .



#19 oetzi

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 23:12

I would say 1988 and 89 when he was with Lotus. I wasn't watching F1 at the time as Thundercats was more my thing then

Tek a boo, son.

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#20 AJFIN

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Posted 11 September 2015 - 23:51

Kovalainen drove at Renault and McLaren in 2007-2009, then floundered around at Team Lotus/Caterham before getting another chance at Lotus (Raikkonen won two races, both him and Grosjean were on the podium a few times so definitely a top team).



#21 4Wheeldrift

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 00:11

Kimi Raikkonnen, dropped by Ferrari but came back to win races at lotus and of course back to Ferrari?

 

Romain Grosjean dropped by Renault, re-signed back?

 

I think it's harder now.  I doubt anyone would replicate Johnny Herbert's start with Benetton and then return to Benetton.



#22 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 01:08

In Formula One, being in the right place at the right time can make a difference on one's career. But these days, with the increased emphasis on seeking out youth and the cars not as punishing to drive, the turnover rate is high thus making a comeback almost impossible. You only get one shot, a second usually never happens.

 

Although pay drivers have existed since the beginning, with the present financial climate, there is a much higher demand for them. If you aren't in one of the top teams, it is almost mandatory you have to bring in a lot of sponsors with you. Smaller teams used to be able to bring in fresh talent, Jordan did with Schumacher, Sauber with Raikkonen. But now, that kind of team definitely does not have that luxury anymore, so very talented drivers have even less of an opportunity to make it.



#23 CHIUNDA

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 01:45

Massa has made a dramatic recovery in the Williams. Vettel too after a questionable 2014 in RBR.

#24 DampMongoose

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 07:58

Depends on how you consider form I suppose but Lauda might be an example. A few generally poor years at Brabham but then a comeback and ultimately a championship at McLaren.

#25 Heisenberg

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 08:19

Massa has made a dramatic recovery in the Williams. Vettel too after a questionable 2014 in RBR.

I think it was a lot due to the fact that Ferrari simply destroyed Massa's confidence when Alonso came! If we are to be honest, he was probably never gonna beat Alonso in points by the end of any of the championships, but he deserved to get equal treatment, he would have surely brought more points that he did in those years. With Vettel I'm not going to get into details again, other than Ricciardo being hyped over the top and people failing to admit Vettel had certain issues only because they hate him.


Edited by Heisenberg, 12 September 2015 - 08:20.


#26 BRG

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Posted 12 September 2015 - 17:55

Mario Andretti had a pretty interesting F1 career.  Lotus and March, then Ferrari, with a couple of wins, then out of F1, then back with Parnelli, then back to Lotus to win the WDC, then tailed off finishing with Alfa, then back to Indycars and winning ways again..