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Carlos Sainz Jr. vs Max Verstappen, thread 2.0


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#1 A3

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:45

The old thread is about to reach it's post limit, so let's continue here with a fine mid season report from Franz Tost himself:

 

http://www.motorspor...so-s-crash-test

 


"I think at the end it is the most competitive driver pairing up until now," he said. "Now, we must see.

"For me it is always very important how is the gradient of the learning curve. And for me up until now it has been very, very steep.

"If it continues like this, then it is for sure by far the best driver combination we have had."

 

With all the mechanical issues both drivers have had so far I feel it's a bit useless to keep the score between the two, but so far Carlos seems to be better in qualifying and Max has stronger races.

 

Let's discuss the team battle between these two guys who seem to be very comfortable in Formula 1 and look like they could be friends off track.

 

And maybe we can try to respect each other a bit more than in the previous thread.

 

 

q02ulud.jpg



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#2 Jon83

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:52

I think Tost might be right in the long-term. Ricciardo and Vergne were pretty decent too.



#3 kosmos

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 11:59

Sneaky change of topic title, well done.  :up:



#4 ensign14

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:45

Sneaky change of topic title, well done.  :up:

 

Missed a trick.  Should have been Sainz v2.0 v Verstappen v2.0 v2.0.



#5 Tony Mandara

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:03

..or you could have just rung a bell and shouted "ROUND TWO!"


(and then ducked for cover!)

 ;)  ;)

Edited by Tony Mandara, 24 August 2015 - 13:04.


#6 Sanderrr

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:12

Repost from end of last topic:

 

Great race by Verstappen, but am I the only one who thinks STR made some bad strategic decisions?

 

First stop was slow resulting in getting behind Raikkonen and being held up by Nasr, so besides the seconds lost at the stop there were seconds lost on track as a result. Throughout the year, the track position of both STR's after a pitstop has been less than optimal quite some times.

 

After the Kyvat pitstop at -15 laps it was clear that the soft was between 2 and 3 seconds per lap faster and would be good for 15-17 laps, but STR only called in Max with -10 laps, stopping him 4 laps earlier would have resulted in P5 because Raikkonen, Massa and Perez would have been sitting ducks. The later you stop, the less time you have to make up for the pitstop time and gain positions, simple.

 

Even my girlfriend understood that when I was shouting "Box Max now!!!" in front of the TV, so I wonder why the team made such a late call.
 



#7 Cloxxki

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:27

While we are scrutinizing every meters these boys drive...how much difference can an engineer make?

If they'd have too swap engineers for a day, would we from the outside not notice a relative difference?
Would Max be qualifying faster, and Carlos getting more solid stints together?

I think Spa was teh best race for Max to date. And still there was a substantial amount of lost opportunity. An F1 driver on top of his mental game would not have taken 8th with Max's driving skills. I think Senna would have screamed for better tires the moment he noticed he was unable to keep the gap to the car in front constant. "These tires are rubbish, I'll try my luck with the next set, they'll just have to last a few laps more." 
Before the race, with all the tire conservation going on, not really taking part in Q2, I thought Max would absolutely minimize the use of Mediums. And while in terms of laps used this came to be, perhaps a strategy they didn't commit to sufficiently, as if they did not believe it would actually work. If we (I'm not alone in this) are right about this, it's also his engineer to blame. If Medium tires don't provide the speed needed, take them off after 6 laps. The good things were happening for Max on Softs.

 

It's too bad that TR seem to consistently lose out in pit strategy and execution.
Max was leading Raikkonen, and Raikkonen seemed fine to let Max do the overtaking. He had the race pace to keep a World Champion with a faster engine and likely better chassis content to sit behind. Only the pit stop turned this around. 
Where in Hungary they committed to get Max (along with Carlos) ahead in the pit stops, they not just let Max slot in behind for pit stop #1. McLaren, Wiliams and Ferrari make such situations work out for them, TR generally do not. As Carlos was so disappointed about when only Max beneffitted in Hungary.

 

Spa for Max was his best drive. The TR car was a huge underdog. 1 or 2 points would have made him happy, he said prior to the weekend. Then the bad uck with the new engine needed. Starting from the back. A bad start even. Then having rounded La Source, Max became a racer and it all turned around.
Good things were expected in Hungary, but really, in a normal situation with functioning engine we would expect him around 10th in the grid. In place closer matching his race pace. In stead of dealing with Alonso end of lap 1, he'd be dealing with cars WAY up the order. Contrary to way many expected, he was not a sitting duck on the straights, he'd taken off more downforce for the race. A WDC in a Ferrari was on his tail all the first stint. Max was ready for the fight 5 places and more up he track.
While Bottas suffered a drive through (although probably getting quite a few tenths of pace in return for that mistmatch in tires), Max overtook him on merit. He could have done that just as well without the drivethrough for Bottas, without the grid penalty for Max.

Carlos is now clearly ahead in the "bad luck" battle.  But did he show any good laptimes during the race? Did he make up any ground? He was shortly down the road from Max and Raikkonen, but didn't exactly creep up on Kimi.
Would anyone in their right mind say that Carlos would have gotten 8th from starting 18th this weekend? Or even from his fine grid position? Would Carlos be overtaking Massa and Bottas? Keeping Kvyat behind? Mixing it up with Grosjean and Perez? We'd simply not seem him overtaking significant cars all year.
Max, no-one will deny, was amazing at Spa. And this was without the rain he was wishing for. We may well have missed out on a performance bigger than Vettel's Monza 2008 with Toro Rosso. Dad Jos did great things in the rain, but never seemed to get a whole race in the wet. Or spin out of one. Max is really the 2.0. Imagine rain had arrived in Spa just before the first round of pit stops. Same track positions. No way he'd have settled for 8th then. The best is yet to come.

Tost is really nice to include Carlos in his praises. But Carlos, more than after Hungary, will really need to step it up next time. As Carlos is losing track timein getting ahead of their bad luck battle, Max is getting top shelf experience, battling much richer teams.

Red Bull really have a dilemma for next season. They wanted Max many years ago already but only got him when they gave him an F1 seat before he turned 17. Now Max is the most exciting driver in F1, perhaps since several years. He's making things happen in races and leaving little to be desired in qualifying.
You get scorched for being a fangirl to merely mention it, but Max is destined to be upgraded to Red Bull. Why would he not be worthy if Kvyat was? Ricciardo is making things happen speed wise, but getting mechanicals. Kvyat is a bit scrappy but does pick up points, puts really great stints together. Certainly a worthy 2nd driver in a top team. But Max is now at least a worthy second driver also. Surely RB can ditch Kvyat, but I suspect they'd want him alongside Max when they eventually lose Ricciardo. RB needs 3 cars for 2016.
With the TR lacking little pace this year, could they hold on to Kvyat sending him back there? TR could be even closer next year. Early this year they were even ahead at times.
There will always be great drivers  wanting to take TR seats, but now they have 2 good drivers at RB,  and a possibly magic one at TR. It will be hard to  hold on to Max if in 2016 he is to feel hampered in his progress. Perhaps TR can come up with promising ideas to get further up the grid. Renault closing the gap more to Mercedes power seems obvious to happen. But if Red Bull get a better engine, and join the fight for wins...Max will be vulnerable to courting from top teams.
I bet RB really want to give Max a RedBull drive next year. And they know it already. But it hurts my heart to think they'll have to ditch Kvyat. There are  fewother drives for Kvyat other than back to TR. Sit out 2016 for Kvyat? End of F1 career? we've seen that with other fine drivers.

If Carlos continues to be outclassed in races, his future in F1 may be less bright than Tost is saying. Another year at TR won't help race craft. A really competitive engine might make it less obvious.

I hope Massa retires and Kvyat gets his seat.



#8 RekF1

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:33

I was quite impressed by Max yesterday. I thought Nasr was extremely meek, but it was a great overtake. Sainz was unlucky, it's really hard to compare these two at the moment because they're always dealing with other issues.

#9 William Hunt

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:36

To be honest, apart from his age, there is nothing extra ordinary that Max is doing this year. He is not performing any better as previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo, Speed, Vergne, Kvyat...) and not even beating his teammate: Sainz is more often than not quicker as him but he has had more bad luck (4 DNF's in a row now because of technical issues). Stoneman, Gasly or Felix Da Costa would have done just as well. Toro Rosso has a quick car this year, quick but unreliable.


Edited by William Hunt, 24 August 2015 - 13:37.


#10 realracer200

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:41

 

If Carlos continues to be outclassed in races, his future in F1 may be less bright than Tost is saying.

 

 


So having a mechanical problem before the race even started is now "being outclassed"... seriously!?



#11 William Hunt

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:43

Carlos was quicker as Max all weekend, in the practice sessions, in qualifying he was even a lot quicker and in the race his car breaks down and some are saying he was outclassed by Max.

Edited by Buttoneer, 25 August 2015 - 10:54.


#12 Cloxxki

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:45

To be honest, apart from his age, there is nothing extra ordinary that Max is doing this year. He is not performing any better as previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo, Speed, Vergne, Kvyat...) and not even beating his teammate: Sainz is more often than not quicker as him but he has had more bad luck (4 DNF's in a row now because of technical issues). Stoneman, Gasly or Felix Da Costa would have done just as well. Toro Rosso has a quick car this year, quick but unreliable.

While this is the Carlos vs.Max thread, do you honestly think that Carlos would have scored 8th starting a dry Spa race from the back of the grid? I am happy to say that Vettel would have, but others...?
Sainz is quick in quali, no-one contests that. But would you contest Max being a better points scorer in actual F1 races? Max got 18th by overtaking cars that were not Manors. We have yet to see that from Carlos.
Max may not be getting a crazy amount of points for a TR driver, but it's obvious that without initial unexpected Renault issues and very sub-par pit team performance, he'd be quite a bit up the rankings. If Max is nothing special, then Carlos in unworthy a TR seat? Curious to hear your opinion.



#13 Erwin123

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:45

To be honest, apart from his age, there is nothing extra ordinary that Max is doing this year. He is not performing any better as previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo, Speed, Vergne, Kvyat...) and not even beating his teammate: Sainz is more often than not quicker as him but he has had more bad luck (4 DNF's in a row now because of technical issues). Stoneman, Gasly or Felix Da Costa would have done just as well. Toro Rosso has a quick car this year, quick but unreliable.

 

ok thank you for clearing that up.



#14 William Hunt

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:46

Max only finished 8th because so many cars retired. Yes Carlos would have been 8th as well in the same conditions. There was nothing special about his race in Spa.


Edited by William Hunt, 24 August 2015 - 13:47.


#15 Cloxxki

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:55

 

So having a mechanical problem before the race even started is now "being outclassed"... seriously!?

 

There's been 11 races. This happened once. Do you feel clever for making this point as if I was referring to that?

Max is consistently in a better track position in races. Spa skewed these statistics for the rest of the season obviously.
I need not go further than ask you which brand of cars Carlos has been overtaking in actual fights for position this season. Even when Carlos does a great quali, he can't holdhis positon for longer than a few laps.

This weekend Carlos obviously didn't get a chance to prove his race craft, while his quali reputation is solid as ever.

Still, he had a chanche to put in a stint with great lap times being in clean air.
Hungary really hurt his track record. He did not lose 4th there with his car failing. Also not due to Max's undercut. He was destined to finish behind a McLaren (on merit), and likely Hamilton, for 7th. It cost him points, but also saved him some face. After a while, we'll remember only that Max got 4th in a messy race and Carlos retired due to mechanical bad luck. Carlos knows in his heart he got outclassed, don't worry about that ;-)



#16 Cloxxki

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 13:58

Max only finished 8th because so many cars retired. Yes Carlos would have been 8th as well in the same conditions. There was nothing special about his race in Spa.

Also starting from the back? That requires overtaking other cars and putting in multiple stints with good lap times.

Would Max have settled for 8th this race without the grid penalty and power issues in Q?

You seem to this that when cars have the same branding, drivers are going to perform equally as long as the cars are running.



#17 Cloxxki

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:06

Carlos was quicker as Max all weekend, in the practice sessions, in qualifying he was even a lot quicker and in the race his car breaks down and some idiots are saying he was outclassed by Max.

Can you provide data that this difference in one-lap times has ever hampered Max from scoring more points than Carlos?
Please don't ignore Max's power issues in qualifying. 

It's true you need a functioning car to take part in a race. But when Carlos had such a good car, he was struggling to keep McLaren's and Saubers behind him ;-)

 

I can see Carlos dominating an event such as Race of Champions. Much closer to his dad's skillset also I suppose.
In an F1 race with all cars finishing, I would totally bet on Max to beat Carlos even having qualified 3 positions down. Because Max can and will overtake the 2 cars in between, and if fine overtaking a Williams-Mercedes, let alone another STR-Renault.



#18 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:28

Carlos was quicker as Max all weekend, in the practice sessions, in qualifying he was even a lot quicker and in the race his car breaks down and some idiots are saying he was outclassed by Max.

 

No he was not!



#19 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:35

Max only finished 8th because so many cars retired. Yes Carlos would have been 8th as well in the same conditions. There was nothing special about his race in Spa.

 

HAHAHAHAHA

 

People say Sainz did a superb job in Monaco comming in 10th from last, only overtaking two Manors and profit from others errors and faillures. Almost screwing up in the same way Max did! This on a track that suites the STR...

 

Max comes for 18th to 8th overtaking several cars and not just 2 Manors, and is in a close battle with a Ferrari. He had some luck with some errors and faillures aswell. But this on a track that doesn't suites the STR by far.... But it'is nothing special???



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#20 MrTea

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:38

Being Dutch myself, I can confirm that the Dutch TV coverage (on a pay channel, BTW) is almost impossible to watch this year. Everything is about Verstappen, whatever else (important) is going on in the race. The Dutch commentator Olav Mol has always been awful (doesn't know any history, is constantly missing things on track that are plain for all to see) but this year he is worse than ever before. Yesterday his first response to Vettel's tyre exploding was "yes, Max gets another place!" It's awful, it is so annoying.

I really dislike Verstappen BTW, probably because I always disliked his father, which may not be entirely fair, I'll admit that. But as the season goes on it appears he is not that different from his father. Jos Verstappen had real speed (which is why he got a lot of chances in F1, much more than most drivers get) but he was just too stupid to make anything of it. I initially thought Max Verstappen was a bit cleverer than his father but after yesterday I'm not sure anymore. He made a lot of stupid moves (the one at Blanchimont, the one on Raikkonen where he was very lucky not to crash into Massa) and yet, the Dutch commentator is praising him for it. As are their 'experts' who 'analyse' the race in the studio afterwards (where 'analyse' means preaching the gospel of Max for an hour and not caring about the relevant parts of the race). These 'experts' are usually crap former drivers like Doornbos and Coronel, BTW.



#21 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:46

Being Dutch myself, I can confirm that the Dutch TV coverage (on a pay channel, BTW) is almost impossible to watch this year. Everything is about Verstappen, whatever else (important) is going on in the race. The Dutch commentator Olav Mol has always been awful (doesn't know any history, is constantly missing things on track that are plain for all to see) but this year he is worse than ever before. Yesterday his first response to Vettel's tyre exploding was "yes, Max gets another place!" It's awful, it is so annoying.

I really dislike Verstappen BTW, probably because I always disliked his father, which may not be entirely fair, I'll admit that. But as the season goes on it appears he is not that different from his father. Jos Verstappen had real speed (which is why he got a lot of chances in F1, much more than most drivers get) but he was just too stupid to make anything of it. I initially thought Max Verstappen was a bit cleverer than his father but after yesterday I'm not sure anymore. He made a lot of stupid moves (the one at Blanchimont, the one on Raikkonen where he was very lucky not to crash into Massa) and yet, the Dutch commentator is praising him for it. As are their 'experts' who 'analyse' the race in the studio afterwards (where 'analyse' means preaching the gospel of Max for an hour and not caring about the relevant parts of the race). These 'experts' are usually crap former drivers like Doornbos and Coronel, BTW.

 

Euhm if you can do better please feel free to do so!!!

 

And disliking someone because you don't like his father? I think that is the wrong way of treating and judging people and says something about how you look at life.

 

And all the experts (not only Dutch) think those things where great and well calculated and you think they are plain stupid?



#22 Lipp

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:47

Also starting from the back? That requires overtaking other cars and putting in multiple stints with good lap times.

Would Max have settled for 8th this race without the grid penalty and power issues in Q?

You seem to this that when cars have the same branding, drivers are going to perform equally as long as the cars are running.

Didn't Carlos do that more or less at Monaco?



#23 MrTea

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:48

Euhm if you can do better please feel free to do so!!!

 

And disliking someone because you don't like his father? I think that is the wrong way of treating and judging people and says something about how you look at life.

 

And all the experts (not only Dutch) think those things where great and well calculated and you think they are plain stupid?

A donkey could do better than Olav Mol. Since a donkey can't speak, he would say a lot less stupid things.

And I'm not the only one who thinks MV drove a crap race yesterday. Does anyone know BTW how he got away with going off track and gaining an advantage when passing Bottas?


Edited by MrTea, 24 August 2015 - 14:50.


#24 EightGear

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:53

To be honest, apart from his age, there is nothing extra ordinary that Max is doing this year. He is not performing any better as previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo, Speed, Vergne, Kvyat...) and not even beating his teammate: Sainz is more often than not quicker as him but he has had more bad luck (4 DNF's in a row now because of technical issues). Stoneman, Gasly or Felix Da Costa would have done just as well. Toro Rosso has a quick car this year, quick but unreliable.

 

There was nothing special about his race in Spa.

 

Neither was Grosjean, Perez, or Hamilton for that matter. They have just great cars suited to Spa.

 

May I ask how you can judge Verstappen and Sainz against previous TR drivers without them ever driving directly against each other?

And I think his age and relative lack of experience is exactly what makes him stand out.

 

Re. Dutch F1 media: true, extremely Verstappen-focussed. They can try to stop that, but then 90% of the population doesn't give a sh*te about F1 anymore unfortunately. 

At least in the UK motorsport is strongly represented in (sports) culture, which is absolutely not the case in the Netherlands. 


Edited by EightGear, 24 August 2015 - 14:54.


#25 JosD

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:54

@MrTea, perhaps you should speak somewhat more respectful about other people, because it definitely does not strengthen your statements. I find it rather disrespectful to speak so lowly of drivers such like Tom Coronel and Robert Doornbos. Frankly in my opinion it  undermines your own credibility. You might not be a fan of Max, for whatever reason, which is your good right, but at least express that in a more respectful manner and without the remarks that you are doing. Who are you to state such things about Olav Mol Tom Coronel or Robert Doornbos. From me you get a big  :down:



#26 Lipp

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 14:55

Being Dutch myself, I can confirm that the Dutch TV coverage (on a pay channel, BTW) is almost impossible to watch this year. Everything is about Verstappen, whatever else (important) is going on in the race. The Dutch commentator Olav Mol has always been awful (doesn't know any history, is constantly missing things on track that are plain for all to see) but this year he is worse than ever before. Yesterday his first response to Vettel's tyre exploding was "yes, Max gets another place!" It's awful, it is so annoying.

I really dislike Verstappen BTW, probably because I always disliked his father, which may not be entirely fair, I'll admit that. But as the season goes on it appears he is not that different from his father. Jos Verstappen had real speed (which is why he got a lot of chances in F1, much more than most drivers get) but he was just too stupid to make anything of it. I initially thought Max Verstappen was a bit cleverer than his father but after yesterday I'm not sure anymore. He made a lot of stupid moves (the one at Blanchimont, the one on Raikkonen where he was very lucky not to crash into Massa) and yet, the Dutch commentator is praising him for it. As are their 'experts' who 'analyse' the race in the studio afterwards (where 'analyse' means preaching the gospel of Max for an hour and not caring about the relevant parts of the race). These 'experts' are usually crap former drivers like Doornbos and Coronel, BTW.

I gree with your comments regarding Olav Mol. I cannot watch nor listen to that crap. He clearly thought that the overtake, that Kvyat did on Massa was Max overtaking Bottas... just to name one...

Regarding your dislike of the Verstappens, good luck with it. But I do realy hope he spoils your fun watching for the next say 10 to 15 years. 


Edited by Lipp, 24 August 2015 - 15:03.


#27 Erwin123

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:01

I can understand that some are not impressed by his performance yesterday. Some like to see clean lap after clean lap without much spectacle or risks.

Others love the spectacle of racing.

 

He indeed reminded me of his father yesterday, a bit too impatient taking too many risks which is offcourse great entertainment.

But to say he drove a crap race is nonsense. Starting at p18 and ending p8 in a TR is not all that bad it seems to me.

Autosport rated his weekend a 7 which seems fair to me.



#28 fastest

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:06

To be honest, apart from his age, there is nothing extra ordinary that Max is doing this year. He is not performing any better as previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo, Speed, Vergne, Kvyat...) and not even beating his teammate: Sainz is more often than not quicker as him but he has had more bad luck (4 DNF's in a row now because of technical issues). Stoneman, Gasly or Felix Da Costa would have done just as well. Toro Rosso has a quick car this year, quick but unreliable.


Forget all the numbers. Go make a highlight reel of Max, and then when you're done, do one of Sainz. It will become obvious who has the raw talent. Sainz highlight reel will be nothing but a flick on the screen. Sainz has done nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to excite me at all thus far. Max is all fireworks and deserves some credit for bringing at least some excitement back to F1. Would've been an even more boring season if it wasn't for him.

#29 Acathla

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:08

I gree with your comments regarding Olav Mol. I cannot watch nor listend to that crap. He clearly thought that the overtake, that Kvyat did on Massa was Max overtaking Bottas... just to name one...

Regarding your dislike of the Verstappens, good luck with it. But I do realy hope he spoils your fun watching for the next say 10 to 15 years. 

 

Olav Mol has been a pain to watch and listen to for a lot of years. He makes a lot of mistakes and is too much into his fellow Dutchies. I'd rather watch F1 at the Beeb, their broadcast is way, way better. More knowledge and not cringeworthy to watch. 

 

I really dislike Jos Verstappen, he's an agressive loose cannon. But I have no problem with Max, he seems a lot wiser than his dad. It would be nice for this thread that folks stop degrading everything what Sainz does. And maybe vice versa. The hate against Carlos is strong I must say.  It's not Verstappen.nl aka 'het afvoerputje van het internet' or 'the sewer drain of the internet' here. 



#30 Jon83

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:10

Olav Mol has been a pain to watch and listen to for a lot of years. He makes a lot of mistakes and is too much into his fellow Dutchies. I'd rather watch F1 at the Beeb, their broadcast is way, way better. More knowledge and not cringeworthy to watch. 

 

I really dislike Jos Verstappen, he's an agressive loose cannon. But I have no problem with Max, he seems a lot wiser than his dad. It would be nice for this thread that folks stop degrading everything what Sainz does. And maybe vice versa. The hate against Carlos is strong I must say.  It's not Verstappen.nl aka 'het afvoerputje van het internet' or 'the sewer drain of the internet' here. 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. Sadly, it seems to be the nature of the driver v driver threads.



#31 RiccardoPatrese

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:11

Does anyone know BTW how he got away with going off track and gaining an advantage when passing Bottas?

The stewards state that he was in front of Bottas the corner before the off.



#32 043Max

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:18

Can't stand Olav Mol eighter. So above comments about Ollie I agree about. However I never watch it on the Dutch paychannel, I watch Sky or BBC. Like them very much. They like Verstappen's actions also very much and they have a decent idea about the kiddo. He is a massive talent, a raw diamond or something.

 

In the NL there indeed is a Verstappen-effect still going strong since 12 months ago. I like it. All the newspapers have great big color prints, and well it's just that. The Verstappen-effect.

 

It's a shame how all Dutch fans are put on one big pile, as arrogant and all. That's just me of course.

 

He had a good race, stayed on track, did some overtakes, showed some action and best of all: finished the race.

The Dutch are not ready folks. We are Hungry. Hungry for succes. Ultra-Hyper-Succes. 

 

And about Sainz Jr.... well, did they already know what caused his start problems? Didn't they say eh? I wonder why.... I don't think they would wanna tell it was some 'driver error', with those new starting procedure thingy they did at Spa. But it has all the looks of it, doesn't? To bad, I think he could have scored a point or two at Spa, but somehow he just ****ed it up it seems. To bad.



#33 Jon83

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:20

Should we not wait for news over what went wrong before deciding Sainz 'just ****ed it up'?

 

Or does common sense no longer exist?



#34 RiccardoPatrese

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:22

 

And about Sainz Jr.... well, did they already know what caused his start problems? Didn't they say eh? I wonder why.... I don't think they would wanna tell it was some 'driver error', with those new starting procedure thingy they did at Spa. But it has all the looks of it, doesn't? T

Oh, come on! Read the press releases and don't make stuff up!



#35 MrWorldwideJr

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:28

Can't stand Olav Mol eighter. So above comments about Ollie I agree about. However I never watch it on the Dutch paychannel, I watch Sky or BBC. Like them very much. They like Verstappen's actions also very much and they have a decent idea about the kiddo. He is a massive talent, a raw diamond or something.

 

In the NL there indeed is a Verstappen-effect still going strong since 12 months ago. I like it. All the newspapers have great big color prints, and well it's just that. The Verstappen-effect.

 

It's a shame how all Dutch fans are put on one big pile, as arrogant and all. That's just me of course.

 

He had a good race, stayed on track, did some overtakes, showed some action and best of all: finished the race.

The Dutch are not ready folks. We are Hungry. Hungry for succes. Ultra-Hyper-Succes. 

 

And about Sainz Jr.... well, did they already know what caused his start problems? Didn't they say eh? I wonder why.... I don't think they would wanna tell it was some 'driver error', with those new starting procedure thingy they did at Spa. But it has all the looks of it, doesn't? To bad, I think he could have scored a point or two at Spa, but somehow he just ****ed it up it seems. To bad.

 

http://www.formula1....in-belgium.html

'We suffered a loss of power on the formation lap with Carlos due to a loose connector in the engine' - Cedrik Staudohar, Renault Sport F1 Track Support Leader

 

Yeah it was pretty stupid of him to be messing about with the connections in the engine during the start procedure....   :stoned:



#36 Ragnar668

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:33

Being Dutch myself, I can confirm that the Dutch TV coverage (on a pay channel, BTW) is almost impossible to watch this year. Everything is about Verstappen, whatever else (important) is going on in the race. The Dutch commentator Olav Mol has always been awful (doesn't know any history, is constantly missing things on track that are plain for all to see) but this year he is worse than ever before. Yesterday his first response to Vettel's tyre exploding was "yes, Max gets another place!" It's awful, it is so annoying.

I really dislike Verstappen BTW, probably because I always disliked his father, which may not be entirely fair, I'll admit that. But as the season goes on it appears he is not that different from his father. Jos Verstappen had real speed (which is why he got a lot of chances in F1, much more than most drivers get) but he was just too stupid to make anything of it. I initially thought Max Verstappen was a bit cleverer than his father but after yesterday I'm not sure anymore. He made a lot of stupid moves (the one at Blanchimont, the one on Raikkonen where he was very lucky not to crash into Massa) and yet, the Dutch commentator is praising him for it. As are their 'experts' who 'analyse' the race in the studio afterwards (where 'analyse' means preaching the gospel of Max for an hour and not caring about the relevant parts of the race). These 'experts' are usually crap former drivers like Doornbos and Coronel, BTW.

So basicly, everyone is crap



#37 043Max

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:41

thanks MrWorldwideJr, hadn't seen that before.



#38 William Hunt

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:43

I watch on different channels: BBC, RTBF (French speaking Belgian tv, Vandoorne as co-commentator) and German RTL (ex-F1 driver Christian Danner co-commentating) and Sky for GP2 & GP3: I find all four of them excellent and not nationalistic, however I would never watch Dutch tv: it's terrible, they talk about Verstappen half of the time.


Edited by William Hunt, 24 August 2015 - 17:56.


#39 MrTea

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:50

@MrTea, perhaps you should speak somewhat more respectful about other people, because it definitely does not strengthen your statements. I find it rather disrespectful to speak so lowly of drivers such like Tom Coronel and Robert Doornbos. Frankly in my opinion it  undermines your own credibility. You might not be a fan of Max, for whatever reason, which is your good right, but at least express that in a more respectful manner and without the remarks that you are doing. Who are you to state such things about Olav Mol Tom Coronel or Robert Doornbos. From me you get a big  :down:

Why should I speak respectful about people I don't respect? I don't know if you have been familiar with Olav Mol's commentary for the past 20 years or so, but if you have you should agree with me (as have many others in this thread).

And perhaps saying Coronel (either) and Doornbos are 'crap' is a slight overstatement, but what have they ever shown us? This whole Max Verstappen hype is doubly annoying to me because in the past nobody around here ever cared about some truly good drivers we had, like Lammers and Luyendyk.



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#40 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:50

Didn't Carlos do that more or less at Monaco?

 

Yes and No!

 

Monaco suites the car more then Spa does!

 

Sainz only overtook both Manors and everybody else hit trouble of some kind. Did Sainz did a poor Job then? No not all! He did great with a very long stint on his tyres.



#41 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:54

A donkey could do better than Olav Mol. Since a donkey can't speak, he would say a lot less stupid things.

And I'm not the only one who thinks MV drove a crap race yesterday. Does anyone know BTW how he got away with going off track and gaining an advantage when passing Bottas?

 

Well but the opinion from those who mather most don't agree with you! The only people think he did a crapy job yesterday are people at Fora that could probably be replaced by the same donkey that could replace Olav Mol. And since donkeys can't type...........

 

By the way, do you know a other word for donkey?

 

And het got away with it because he didn't gain a advantage by it, see the FIA press release!



#42 MrTea

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 15:58

Well but the opinion from those who mather most don't agree with you! The only people think he did a crapy job yesterday are people at Fora that could probably be replaced by the same donkey that could replace Olav Mol. And since donkeys can't type...........

 

By the way, do you know a other word for donkey?

 

And het got away with it because he didn't gain a advantage by it, see the FIA press release!

Getting past someone isn't gaining an advantage anymore?



#43 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:02

Olav Mol has been a pain to watch and listen to for a lot of years. He makes a lot of mistakes and is too much into his fellow Dutchies. I'd rather watch F1 at the Beeb, their broadcast is way, way better. More knowledge and not cringeworthy to watch. 

 

I really dislike Jos Verstappen, he's an agressive loose cannon. But I have no problem with Max, he seems a lot wiser than his dad. It would be nice for this thread that folks stop degrading everything what Sainz does. And maybe vice versa. The hate against Carlos is strong I must say.  It's not Verstappen.nl aka 'het afvoerputje van het internet' or 'the sewer drain of the internet' here. 

 

There is no hate against Sainz, but all we are saying he is not spectecular in any way. He does a great and consistent job and deserved more from his races as he got out of it this far. 



#44 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:04

Can't stand Olav Mol eighter. So above comments about Ollie I agree about. However I never watch it on the Dutch paychannel, I watch Sky or BBC. Like them very much. They like Verstappen's actions also very much and they have a decent idea about the kiddo. He is a massive talent, a raw diamond or something.

 

In the NL there indeed is a Verstappen-effect still going strong since 12 months ago. I like it. All the newspapers have great big color prints, and well it's just that. The Verstappen-effect.

 

It's a shame how all Dutch fans are put on one big pile, as arrogant and all. That's just me of course.

 

He had a good race, stayed on track, did some overtakes, showed some action and best of all: finished the race.

The Dutch are not ready folks. We are Hungry. Hungry for succes. Ultra-Hyper-Succes. 

 

And about Sainz Jr.... well, did they already know what caused his start problems? Didn't they say eh? I wonder why.... I don't think they would wanna tell it was some 'driver error', with those new starting procedure thingy they did at Spa. But it has all the looks of it, doesn't? To bad, I think he could have scored a point or two at Spa, but somehow he just ****ed it up it seems. To bad.

 

Renault took the blame with some lose sensor or something like that!



#45 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:06

cI watch on different channels: BBC, RTBF (French speaking Belgian tv, Vandoorne as co-commentator) and German RTL (ex-F1 driver Christian Danner co-commentating) and Sky for GP2 & GP3: I find all four of them excellent and not nationalistic, however I would never watch Dutch tv: it's terrible, they talk about Verstappen half of the time.

 

How do you know???

 

If you never watch you can't know, could you?



#46 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:08

Getting past someone isn't gaining an advantage anymore?

 

Nope, because he was in front of him so he did not gain a advantage but lost to Bottas due to going of track!



#47 MrTea

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:09

Nope, because he was in front of him so he did not gain a advantage but lost to Bottas due to going of track!

That's ridiculous. Without going off track he would have never made that pass stick.



#48 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:14

Why should I speak respectful about people I don't respect? I don't know if you have been familiar with Olav Mol's commentary for the past 20 years or so, but if you have you should agree with me (as have many others in this thread).

And perhaps saying Coronel (either) and Doornbos are 'crap' is a slight overstatement, but what have they ever shown us? This whole Max Verstappen hype is doubly annoying to me because in the past nobody around here ever cared about some truly good drivers we had, like Lammers and Luyendyk.

 

Because you don't know them?

 

Well was there internet and a forum back then?

 

For me; I follow several Dutch talents and people that are arround here and know me from Dutch fora can back this up.

 

Also back in the days I followed Luyendijk and Lammers as well. But because of the tv coverage back then it wasn't with the same interest as now a days with Frijns, vd Garde, Verstappen, Bleekemolen, vd Zande, de Vries and others.



#49 Ragnar668

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:16

Why should I speak respectful about people I don't respect? I don't know if you have been familiar with Olav Mol's commentary for the past 20 years or so, but if you have you should agree with me (as have many others in this thread).

And perhaps saying Coronel (either) and Doornbos are 'crap' is a slight overstatement, but what have they ever shown us? This whole Max Verstappen hype is doubly annoying to me because in the past nobody around here ever cared about some truly good drivers we had, like Lammers and Luyendyk.

 

Don't think this board existed when Lammers drove F1



#50 lars75

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 16:18

That's ridiculous. Without going off track he would have never made that pass stick.

 

And the Stewards disagree!!!

 

So if you like it or not, they have a other view on this MATTER.