116 replies to this topic

[Counterbalance]

Test sessions. There roles are exactly the same - they've paid for a certain amount of seat time. Why should Maldonado give his up and not Palmer?

 

So you want Palmer to pay for a Friday practice session and then give it up? To pay money to drive the car, then say he doesn't want to drive it? To miss out on his chance to show teams that he's worthy of a seat in F1 and can mix it with the best? Seriously?

 

If you think like that you can come and work for me. Simply slip me £50,000 and don't bother turning up for a year. I'll pm you over my sort code and account number. You can (not) start next week.

 

 

Anyway, this is getting off topic, I've made my point, time to move on I think.

[Fisico54]

That's exactly what you're saying Maldonado should do. He has paid to do all free practice, Quali and the races. Why should he give up what he has paid for especially when it affects his set up time for races?

[Counterbalance]

That's exactly what you're saying Maldonado should do. He has paid to do all free practice, Quali and the races. Why should he give up what he has paid for especially when it affects his set up time for races?

 

Maldonado would be only giving up a fraction of his seat time during the race weekend. Palmer on the other hand would be giving up all of his seat time during the race weekend. I've highlighted the significant parts for your understanding. And therein lies a world of difference. As for set up time, well we've seen plenty of drivers miss FP1 for a variety of reasons and do ok come race day. In fact, as a case in point, Romain Grosjean doesn't seem to suffer too badly when allowing Palmer to drive his car for an hour and half on a Friday morning. Maldonado is an asset on the books, a liability on the track.

[taran]

Maldonado would be only giving up a fraction of his seat time during the race weekend. Palmer on the other hand would be giving up all of his seat time during the race weekend. I've highlighted the significant parts for your understanding. And therein lies a world of difference. As for set up time, well we've seen plenty of drivers miss FP1 for a variety of reasons and do ok come race day. In fact, as a case in point, Romain Grosjean doesn't seem to suffer too badly when allowing Palmer to drive his car for an hour and half on a Friday morning. Maldonado is an asset on the books, a liability on the track.

 

Sorry, but I am calling BS on you. First, you give the impression that you didn't understand that Palmer is paying $$$ for the role of test/development/third driver when teams have been selling the job for decades. Unless you just discovered F1 in 2015, that's rather unlikely.

 

Then you try to make the suggestion that Maldonado is somehow out of bounds for insisting on getting what he paid for. But its okay for Palmer to do so. When Palmer could just as easily have bought simulater time and thereby show the team how fast he is without messing with their race weekends....like Jorda does in the same team except she just shows how slow she is.

Grosjean has publicly stated that giving up time is costing him and that only the financial reality facing the team is why he is putting up with it. But he hates it.

 

So where is Palmer´s team spirit? Why doesn't he stop undermining the team? Wait a minute.....you joined a F1 forum in 2015 and want Maldonado out of the seat.

Say, your first name isn't Jolyon by any chance?

[Maustinsj]

His first name could be Jonathan...

[Counterbalance]

Sorry, but I am calling BS on you. First, you give the impression that you didn't understand that Palmer is paying $$$ for the role of test/development/third driver when teams have been selling the job for decades. Unless you just discovered F1 in 2015, that's rather unlikely.

 

Then you try to make the suggestion that Maldonado is somehow out of bounds for insisting on getting what he paid for. But its okay for Palmer to do so. When Palmer could just as easily have bought simulater time and thereby show the team how fast he is without messing with their race weekends....like Jorda does in the same team except she just shows how slow she is.

Grosjean has publicly stated that giving up time is costing him and that only the financial reality facing the team is why he is putting up with it. But he hates it.

 

So where is Palmer´s team spirit? Why doesn't he stop undermining the team? Wait a minute.....you joined a F1 forum in 2015 and want Maldonado out of the seat.

Say, your first name isn't Jolyon by any chance?

 

What are you two? The Official Maldonado Supporters club? So let's get a few things straight here, and redress a few the points you have made:

 

 

Just because I didn't explicitly mention Palmer's cash injection in my initial post, it does not infer for one second that I was not aware of the situation. Please point out as to where I gave the impression otherwise. Your assumption is pure conjecture, nothing more.

 

Secondly, both you and Fisico54's argument hinge upon the quite frankly ridiculous assumption that Palmer is not a team player because he won't give up his Friday morning practice session(s) for the sake of the team. His Friday morning practice sessions (FP-1) are 100% of his paid for seat time, which is not the case with Maldonado, who enjoys not only FP1, but FP2, FP3, Q1, Q2, Q3 and the race itself due to his sponsorship. There is a world of diference, how many times do I have to repeat that you cannot compare like for like because giving up 16.66667% of your allotted seat time isn't the same as giving up 100% of your alloted seat time during a grand prix event? As I suspect that you are fully aware of that fact, I can only reach the conclusion that you're twisting my words, and talking of words, I'll move onto my next point.

 

My words, specifically 'To miss out on his chance to show teams that he's worthy of a seat in F1', which Palmer would be doing if he gave up his paid for FP1 session. It's a bit difficult to showcase your talents to the rest of the racing world in a simulator, would not you agree? So that's another one of your points batted straight out of the park quicker than Esteban Gutiérrez can say "....what was that?"

 

Joylon Palmer is undermining a team? That's the first I've heard.... oh, I get it I only joined an F1 forum in 2015, I must be a Maldonado hating myopic trouble causer who's new to F1 and doesn't understand much. Or perhaps I simply didn't register until a few months ago.

 

Finally, no, my first name isn't Jolyon by any chance.

 

And that's about it, really.

Edited by Counterbalance, 31 August 2015 - 17:48.

[Counterbalance]

His first name could be Jonathan...

 

Close, but no cigar.

[Fisico54]

What are you two? The Official Maldonado Supporters club? So let's get a few things straight here, and redress a few the points you have made:


Just because I didn't explicitly mention Palmer's cash injection in my initial post, it does not infer for one second that I was not aware of the situation. Please point out as to where I gave the impression otherwise. Your assumption is pure conjecture, nothing more.

Secondly, both you and Fisico54's argument hinge upon the quite frankly ridiculous assumption that Palmer is not a team player because he won't give up his Friday morning practice session(s) for the sake of the team. His Friday morning practice sessions (FP-1) are 100% of his paid for seat time, which is not the case with Maldonado, who enjoys not only FP1, but FP2, FP3, Q1, Q2, Q3 and the race itself due to his sponsorship. There is a world of diference, how many times do I have to repeat that you cannot compare like for like because giving up 16.66667% of your allotted seat time isn't the same as giving up 100% of your alloted seat time during a grand prix event? As I suspect that you are fully aware of that fact, I can only reach the conclusion that you're twisting my words, and talking of words, I'll move onto my next point.

My words, specifically 'To miss out on his chance to show teams that he's worthy of a seat in F1', which Palmer would be doing if he gave up his paid for FP1 session. It's a bit difficult to showcase your talents to the rest of the racing world in a simulator, would not you agree? So that's another one of your points batted straight out of the park quicker than Esteban Gutiérrez can say "....what was that?"

Joylon Palmer is undermining a team? That's the first I've heard.... oh, I get it I only joined an F1 forum in 2015, I must be a Maldonado hating myopic trouble causer who's new to F1 and doesn't understand much. Or perhaps I simply didn't register until a few months ago.

Finally, no, my first name isn't Jolyon by any chance.

And that's about it, really.

Nobody in the world thought Palmer was selfish in taking his contracted free practice slots or thought he wasn't a team player (except maybe Grosjean) until you started making those assertions about Maldonado. Maldonado is doing nothing wrong taking all his contracted seat time either.

[Counterbalance]

Nobody in the world thought Palmer was selfish in taking his contracted free practice slots or thought he wasn't a team player (except maybe Grosjean) until you started making those assertions about Maldonado. Maldonado is doing nothing wrong taking all his contracted seat time either.

 

Are you sure about that? That's a pretty big assumption to make. I'd actually say that in light of Permane's comments, Maldonado is being regarded less and less as a member of the team. I'd go as far as to say that I think there would be many in the Renault garage who would wlecome Palmer replacing him for the duration of the season. That's unlikely to happen though, and it's not because of the point haul Maldonado contiunally brings to Lotus race after race.

[Fisico54]

Are you sure about that? That's a pretty big assumption to make. I'd actually say that in light of Permane's comments, Maldonado is being regarded less and less as a member of the team. I'd go as far as to say that I think there would be many in the Renault garage who would wlecome Palmer replacing him for the duration of the season. That's unlikely to happen though, and it's not because of the point haul Maldonado contiunally brings to Lotus race after race.

Sorry I'll correct it 'Nobody but an idiot with a chip on their shoulder about Maldonado thought'.
You're making a pretty big assumption yourself on Permane and the team

[4Wheeldrift]

MAL and GRO are a really interesting pair of drivers, clearly talented but flawed. GRO has been dropped from his team, returned to GP2 (a reputational risk) where he won the title then came back to F1 and faced the "first-lap nutcase" criticism and ban. He's come out of that a far better driver.

MAL on the other hand is buying his seat, and whilst also a GP2 champion had the misfortune (from a developmental perspective) to win that Spanish GP. Prior to that he was a crash-prone up-and-coming driver, after that he was one of the F1 elite - a race winner and in that season gained a feeling he had a shot at the title. That mental (in many ways) view of his place in F1's hierarchy showed through. The very next race (Monaco) he used his car as a weapon against Perez and when he had to start from the back tried to make up all of the places into the first corner.

Now, we all know he crashes too much, but crashing in the race is one thing - heat of battle etc. Crashing in FP1 when all alone on the track is quite another. He genuinely seems to lack concentration and the ability to build up to his pace. Lotus has lost so much set-up and de facto test mileage simply because one of their cars is in small piles behind an Armco barrier.

This crash, caused by running over the kerbs at Eau Rouge, feels like another example of this lapse, or perhaps <<no me va a pasar>>. Most drivers felt that the additional kerbs at Eau Rouge, to prevent corner-cutting,were dangerous, hence why some were removed. One of the few voices to welcome them was Pastor ... implying that if they aren't there he will run off the track ...

I suspect Alan Permane's comments are calculated. He talks to MAL on a daily basis, he'll know how well suggestions play out - given MAL's record, not very well - so he's probably just expressing to the world that Lotus F1 makes cars to race on the track. If you keep the car on the track you can go from ninth to third, if you go off the track unexpected things can happen, such as a 17G shock through the power train and the car will stop. He's probably making that point because his team is at risk of folding, his driver has cost it points - again, which translate not just into "Bernie money" but also investor interest. They are 1 point ahead of a resurgent Force India but could easily have been 13 points.

Let's be honest, Williams needed his money, but not so much that they could put up with everything else.

[Counterbalance]

Sorry I'll correct it 'Nobody but an idiot with a chip on their shoulder about Maldonado thought'.
You're making a pretty big assumption yourself on Permane and the team

Cut out the insults please, they don't further your argument and cheapen your posts.

And I stand by my comments. I feel they're perfectly valid observations given Maldonado's performances.

[Counterbalance]

MAL and GRO are a really interesting pair of drivers, clearly talented but flawed. GRO has been dropped from his team, returned to GP2 (a reputational risk) where he won the title then came back to F1 and faced the "first-lap nutcase" criticism and ban. He's come out of that a far better driver.

MAL on the other hand is buying his seat, and whilst also a GP2 champion had the misfortune (from a developmental perspective) to win that Spanish GP. Prior to that he was a crash-prone up-and-coming driver, after that he was one of the F1 elite - a race winner and in that season gained a feeling he had a shot at the title. That mental (in many ways) view of his place in F1's hierarchy showed through. The very next race (Monaco) he used his car as a weapon against Perez and when he had to start from the back tried to make up all of the places into the first corner.

Now, we all know he crashes too much, but crashing in the race is one thing - heat of battle etc. Crashing in FP1 when all alone on the track is quite another. He genuinely seems to lack concentration and the ability to build up to his pace. Lotus has lost so much set-up and de facto test mileage simply because one of their cars is in small piles behind an Armco barrier.

This crash, caused by running over the kerbs at Eau Rouge, feels like another example of this lapse, or perhaps <<no me va a pasar>>. Most drivers felt that the additional kerbs at Eau Rouge, to prevent corner-cutting,were dangerous, hence why some were removed. One of the few voices to welcome them was Crashtor ... implying that if they aren't there he will run off the track ...

I suspect Alan Permane's comments are calculated. He talks to MAL on a daily basis, he'll know how well suggestions play out - given MAL's record, not very well - so he's probably just expressing to the world that Lotus F1 makes cars to race on the track. If you keep the car on the track you can go from ninth to third, if you go off the track unexpected things can happen, such as a 17G shock through the power train and the car will stop. He's probably making that point because his team is at risk of folding, his driver has cost it points - again, which translate not just into "Bernie money" but also investor interest. They are 1 point ahead of a resurgent Force India but could easily have been 13 points.

Let's be honest, Williams needed his money, but not so much that they could put up with everything else.

Excellent.

[taran]

What are you two? The Official Maldonado Supporters club? So let's get a few things straight here, and redress a few the points you have made:

 

 

Just because I didn't explicitly mention Palmer's cash injection in my initial post, it does not infer for one second that I was not aware of the situation. Please point out as to where I gave the impression otherwise. Your assumption is pure conjecture, nothing more.

 

Secondly, both you and Fisico54's argument hinge upon the quite frankly ridiculous assumption that Palmer is not a team player because he won't give up his Friday morning practice session(s) for the sake of the team. His Friday morning practice sessions (FP-1) are 100% of his paid for seat time, which is not the case with Maldonado, who enjoys not only FP1, but FP2, FP3, Q1, Q2, Q3 and the race itself due to his sponsorship. There is a world of diference, how many times do I have to repeat that you cannot compare like for like because giving up 16.66667% of your allotted seat time isn't the same as giving up 100% of your alloted seat time during a grand prix event? As I suspect that you are fully aware of that fact, I can only reach the conclusion that you're twisting my words, and talking of words, I'll move onto my next point.

 

My words, specifically 'To miss out on his chance to show teams that he's worthy of a seat in F1', which Palmer would be doing if he gave up his paid for FP1 session. It's a bit difficult to showcase your talents to the rest of the racing world in a simulator, would not you agree? So that's another one of your points batted straight out of the park quicker than Esteban Gutiérrez can say "....what was that?"

 

Joylon Palmer is undermining a team? That's the first I've heard.... oh, I get it I only joined an F1 forum in 2015, I must be a Maldonado hating myopic trouble causer who's new to F1 and doesn't understand much. Or perhaps I simply didn't register until a few months ago.

 

Finally, no, my first name isn't Jolyon by any chance.

 

And that's about it, really.

 

Why don't you look back to your post #98. That clearly gives that impression.

 

As to your argument that Palmer can buy time in the car and is thus entitled to it but Maldonado should give up his entitled time to be a team player, clearly that is bogus. Try applying the same principles to both drivers and you'll see how unfair and biased you are.

 

Palmer has bought seat time to show Lotus what he can do and get experience in an F1 car. To further his own career. And Lotus need the cash, hence the revolving door of third drivers the team has had.

Palmer isn't there to impress other teams because the other teams have no idea what programme Palmer is running. And Lotus need data, not glory runs in FP1.

 

Finally, you and 4wheeldrift do know that Maldonado left Williams, not the other way around? So why claim that Williams was unwilling to put up with Maldonado? Considering the peanuts Martini is paying, Maldo's $40m could have given the Williams a bit more speed.

[Counterbalance]

Why don't you look back to your post #98. That clearly gives that impression.

 

As to your argument that Palmer can buy time in the car and is thus entitled to it but Maldonado should give up his entitled time to be a team player, clearly that is bogus. Try applying the same principles to both drivers and you'll see how unfair and biased you are.

 

Palmer has bought seat time to show Lotus what he can do and get experience in an F1 car. To further his own career. And Lotus need the cash, hence the revolving door of third drivers the team has had.

Palmer isn't there to impress other teams because the other teams have no idea what programme Palmer is running. And Lotus need data, not glory runs in FP1.

 

Finally, you and 4wheeldrift do know that Maldonado left Williams, not the other way around? So why claim that Williams was unwilling to put up with Maldonado? Considering the peanuts Martini is paying, Maldo's $40m could have given the Williams a bit more speed.

 

You mean the part where I used the words 'so what would Palmer be paying for?' in direct response to the ludicrous idea that he gives up his FP1 sessions, the very reason why he shoved a whole load of cash Lotus's way in the first place? It's called a rhetorical question in case you didn't know, but I suspect you do, as you seem to have formed a habbit of twisting my words to try and mean something that they most clearly do not.

 

I can remember reading somewhere (or maybe even hearing it through a media outlet) that Williams had grown weary of Maldonado. Indeed who would blame them when after being knocked out of Q1 in Austin, 2013, he accused them of tampering with his tyre pressures (a claim which he later retracted). And now it appears that Lotus are heading down the same path as Williams with respect to their attitude towards their mega bucks pay driver.

[kevinracefan]

Force India will be using Maldo's funds to rebuild their crash damage next year.

[4Wheeldrift]

Yes, MAL did leave Williams.  But the relationship had cracks in it and, as Counterbalance says, the rift was widest when MAL accused one of the most successful teams in GP history of sabotaging his car.  I agree I think they'd already agreed to part ways by then.  The point I was trying to make was that I imagine Williams didn't really consider the "move heaven and earth to keep him" option, I'd imagine they'd probably reached their limit too.

 

As I remember it, MAL left Williams, thus earning Williams a windfall from PVDSA to exit the contract early and a switch from dependency on PDVSA to a traditional title sponsor.