Jump to content


Photo

Technical Innovations which DID begin in F1?


  • Please log in to reply
99 replies to this topic

#51 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 September 2015 - 20:24

I'm going to do a pernickety Dave McKinney here. Mention in this thread of pre-WW1 pioneering Peugeots and pre-WW2 pioneering Auto Unions surely ignores the 'F1' definition in the title question?  In other words, surely, innovation from 1947 forward. 

DCN

I don't understand this.

 

If someone claims an innovation for the 1960s or 70s and it can be shown that it actually happened 30-40 years earlier, how is that off-topic?

 

More generally, I don't think we should over-emphasise the adoption of Formula 1 in 1947.  Grand Prix racing started in 1906 and even that can be seen as an evolution of what had gone before.  Motor sport has continued to evolve for over a century; there have been a few watershed events in that time but I can't see that the adoption of a new phrase in 1947 was one of them.  Everybody on this forum has their own areas of knowledge and interest and it may be that not many are interested in events of over 60 years ago, but we should all accept that continuity and not introduce artificial breaks in history.  

 

In any case, digression often leads to interesting places.

 

I always did enjoy a fruitless argument with David McKinney.



Advertisement

#52 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 6,096 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 07 September 2015 - 09:38

It is no big deal in real terms of technical innovations, but do we know who was the first to use the chassis tubes to carry oil or water, before ACBC started?.

Roger Lund



#53 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,581 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 07 September 2015 - 10:32

Auto Union did, in 1934, but went to separate water pipes for their 1935 car as they'd suffered a number of water leaks when using the chassis tubes to carry the water.



#54 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 6,096 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 07 September 2015 - 10:40

Thanks , Tim. I recalled that someone had, so I must have read about it in the AU book
RL

#55 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,883 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 07 September 2015 - 16:09

It does seem that the so-called pinnacle of the sport hasn't really managed to be very innovative at all.

 

But like the piranhas to which it is so often compared, it gobbles up anything useful on sight.



#56 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 08 September 2015 - 13:04

Anyone got a comparison between F1 and 24h LM sportscars (in all their iterations).



#57 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 08 September 2015 - 13:47

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
The more I look at the pix in post #43, the more I"m convinced that this is from the '63 running of the Player's 200
at Mosport. Tipo61's references made me look that much more closely. The scene of this photo would be in the short chute
between T9 and T10 coming up to finish a lap.

I attended the event and took many snaps in the paddock with my 'Box Brownie'. All three of these cars figured in my captures.
I still have the photos and negs but have long since lost the ability to post them here at TNF. The #44 Cooper is actually driven
by Dan Gurney. The #6 car is the highly-controversial Zerex Special driven by Roger Penske(not Patrick McGooghan).


You haven't lost that ability at all...

What you have to do is click on the little symbol at the top left of all the symbols on the 'Reply to this topic' area. Obviously this is not marked as something to do, it has no name, it has no way of telling what it is, but it's to the left of the one that says 'remove format' when you cross it with your cursor. Yes, the very first icon that's there.

Would that there were no computer nerds who would include this kind of stupidity in our lives, but it's what we have to live with.

I look forward to seeing your Bob Brownie efforts.

Oh, and by the way, once you've clicked on that once it remains until you click on it again. So don't touch it again and it's like it used to be... quoting, posting pictures and all.

#58 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
  • Member

  • 975 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 08 September 2015 - 22:27

Thanks for tips, Ray!  Much obliged...

 

I see the ability to post photos available to me now.  I'll upload to a URL(I guess that's required now; in the good old days, I could post pix direct from my HD, as I recall)and test.  Any recommendations as to a reliable host?

 

 



#59 uffen

uffen
  • Member

  • 1,892 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 08 September 2015 - 22:46

Active suspension.  I was surprised to find it first appeared on a road car (Toyota Soarer, semi active) in 1983, but Lotus had a working prototype on a GP car in '81-'82 I think?

You've forgotten the Citroen DS21.



Advertisement

#60 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 09 September 2015 - 07:13

Did anybody preceded Formula 1 in the use of the engine as as unsupported chassis member, or in the use of carbon fibre for the complete monocoque?

#61 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 September 2015 - 07:43

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Thanks for tips, Ray!  Much obliged...
 
I see the ability to post photos available to me now.  I'll upload to a URL (I guess that's required now; in the good old days, I could post pix direct from my HD, as I recall) and test. Any recommendations as to a reliable host?


www.postimage.org

Free and reliable so far. You could never upload here direct from your hard drive. And no problem at all...

Roger, the Eclipse Zephyr of 1954 had the stressed engine, also the Clisby hillclimb car of about 1950, I think there are other examples.

#62 vesy427

vesy427
  • New Member

  • 4 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 09 September 2015 - 08:54

It is no big deal in real terms of technical innovations, but do we know who was the first to use the chassis tubes to carry oil or water, before ACBC started?.

Roger Lund

 

Hello !

The Peugeot cars that participated in Paris - Rouen run in 1894 had their water circulating in the chassis tubes

Best regards

Yves



#63 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 09 September 2015 - 10:26

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Did anybody precede Formula 1 in the use of the engine as as unsupported chassis member.....


Many a farm tractor, of course, has the engine block as part of the chassis...

I know some will immediately think of the Ferguson T20 and its Standard-Triumph origins, but that block isn't anything like the block used in automotive applications. The engine internals are fitted into a block which has gusseting and ribbing to give it the strength to form part of the chassis.

#64 Manfred Cubenoggin

Manfred Cubenoggin
  • Member

  • 975 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 09 September 2015 - 11:44

Testing, testing...
 

1963_p200_j_hall_chaparrala.jpg

 

1963_p200_j_hall_chaparral.jpg



#65 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 09 September 2015 - 11:58

Many a farm tractor, of course, has the engine block as part of the chassis...

I know some will immediately think of the Ferguson T20 and its Standard-Triumph origins, but that block isn't anything like the block used in automotive applications. The engine internals are fitted into a block which has gusseting and ribbing to give it the strength to form part of the chassis.

Yes, quite, but as one who tried to lift a TR2 engine with a Land Rover recovery crane I can say the engine was heavy enough to lift the Land Rover's front wheels off the ground.  GK what the Fergie application must have weighed.



#66 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 09 September 2015 - 13:17

Did anybody preceded Formula 1 in the use of the engine as as unsupported chassis member, or in the use of carbon fibre for the complete monocoque?

i thought this a likely first for F1, as Vittorio Jano (not Colin Chapman)  pioneered engine as a stressed chassis member in the 1954 Lancia D50. But on looking further, I discovered Harley-Davidson had used the technology on racing bikes as early as 1916. Even tractors before WW 1 used the technology.

Since the original question mentioned motorsport, I conclude that H-D did precede  F1 with this technology.

Very little in motor racing is new, it seems.


Edited by D28, 09 September 2015 - 14:00.


#67 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,581 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 09 September 2015 - 14:03

This earlier thread also discussed the use of engines as stressed chassis members:

The Lotus 49 and its derivatives

In it Venator noted that Tatra had used this technology in the early 1920s:
 

While admittedly not F1 and not rear-engined, the front-engined Tatra cars and lorries from the early 1920s to the late 1940s used the engine as a stressed member, with the front suspension attached to the front of the engine, while the tubular backbone chassis was attached to the rear of it. There were others as well. Chapman was not as innovative as claimed, as he never patented this construction method, the reason being that it was already a known principle.



#68 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 09 September 2015 - 14:23

This earlier thread also discussed the use of engines as stressed chassis members:

The Lotus 49 and its derivatives

In it Venator noted that Tatra had used this technology in the early 1920s:
 

 Can we conclude that when Vittorio Jano introduced the concept to F1, it was already old technology in motorsport, as well as production vehicles.



#69 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,538 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 06 December 2015 - 16:11

We all understood that the Brabham F1 fan car was a derivative from Chaparral sports cars. Thanks to Ricardo Divila, I learned that Chapparal (possibly via Chevrolet) were inspired by traction vehicles used to get B52 bombers rolling.

 

http://www.motorspor...rral-2f-and-2h/



#70 DampMongoose

DampMongoose
  • Member

  • 2,258 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 06 December 2015 - 18:04

Blown wheel nuts?

#71 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 9,389 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 08 December 2015 - 18:16

Is there any other user of generators driven by a turbocharger, or did I misunderstand something?



#72 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,036 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 08 December 2015 - 21:49

Tyrrell tried active camber control on the 008 and 009. In this earlier thread:

Tyrrell 008 fan car ?

there’s some fascinating input from Gene Varnier, who was a Tyrrell designer at the time, including:
 

The fan car was a F1 first? Just maybe. For what? 1 race!



#73 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,036 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 08 December 2015 - 21:53

Yes, quite, but as one who tried to lift a TR2 engine with a Land Rover recovery crane I can say the engine was heavy enough to lift the Land Rover's front wheels off the ground.  GK what the Fergie application must have weighed.

Having pulled a few Guansvard engines in my time they really are not that heavy. Similar to a Holden or Zephyr 6 and similar capacity. The cars they were attached to though were heavier than many of the era.



#74 fredeuce

fredeuce
  • Member

  • 407 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 08 December 2015 - 22:01

The fan car was a F1 first? Just maybe. For what? 1 race!

Lee,  I think you will find the Chaparral 2J Can-Am car preceded the Tyrrell by about 7-8 years 



#75 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 11,036 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 08 December 2015 - 23:12

Lee,  I think you will find the Chaparral 2J Can-Am car preceded the Tyrrell by about 7-8 years 

Yes I now realise that. My comment was from page 1, I had not read page 2! oops.

So F1 probably has not ever made any new technology, just spent billions furthering existing.



#76 robert dick

robert dick
  • Member

  • 1,298 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:19

Inspiration for Vittorio Jano's Alfa Tipo B/P3 rear axle layout?
Appeared in the spring of 1905 at the Inventor's Show, Paris (from The Automobile/New York/1905):
buissy1.jpg
buissy2.jpg
 



#77 wilsongt

wilsongt
  • New Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:59

Sticking my neck out, as I'm interested in who/what was first
- onboard suspension (Maserati 1948?)
-pull rod/push rod -Gordon Cuppock/Gordon Murray?

#78 sabrejet

sabrejet
  • Member

  • 882 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:14

Sticking my neck out, as I'm interested in who/what was first
- onboard suspension (Maserati 1948?)
-pull rod/push rod -Gordon Cuppock/Gordon Murray?

 

Don't most cars have onboard suspension?  :p



#79 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,124 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:42

Struggling a bit with nomenclature here... "onboard" suspension as in opposite of outboard suspension bits? Meaning, springs and/or shocks, since arms, rods or wishbones are mostly "outboard" by necessity!? Then, as so often, there is Harry Miller's 1935 Indy car with completely enclosed suspension arms covering springs, shocks and even tie rods - I don't think the latter were ever concealed within F1 suspensions until sometime in the nineties?

Advertisement

#80 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,124 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:49

Pull rods activating inboard damper/spring units were on late seventies Brabhams, but I'm not really sure that was a first. In any case, it was basically the same as outboard spring/damper units, just a bit more efficient aerodynamically. Push rods came in very soon after, early eighties.

#81 wilsongt

wilsongt
  • New Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:52

I'm an idiot, or my auto-correct is - IN-board!
I.e. Springs and dampers in out of the airstream

I was trying to think of innovations that would be driven by single-seater aerodynamics i.e. Possibly F1. The earliest rocker arm suspension I can think of without a google search is a late-40's Maserati, the earliest pull/push rod suspension that of the early 70's

But in the general theme of this thread, no doubt there are predecessors! Perhaps a transverse leaf spring acting as a suspension member, dampers tucked away? Or a sports car with a huge starting fuel load, so would benefit from rising rate suspension?

Regards
Glenn

#82 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,124 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 02 July 2017 - 13:01

Beam axles are of course much easier to "hide from the wind" - I do recall some mid-thirties Indy cars with completely enclosed leaf springs, leaving the "naked" axles to beat the wind... Quite probably some LSR cars did the same even earlier!

#83 Garsted

Garsted
  • Member

  • 182 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 02 July 2017 - 19:12

I've noted a number of recent posts regarding supposed innovations which saw their first motorsport use in F1, but these have largely been debunked as myth (carbon fibre, slick tyres, turbos, monocoque tubs and ground effects to name a few).

 

This got me wondering what motorsport innovations really had seen their first iterations in F1, and I have to say I can't think of anything. 

 

So can anyone do better? Form a queue here...

 

How about pneumatic valve springs? were Renault first with these?

 

Steve



#84 wilsongt

wilsongt
  • New Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 03 July 2017 - 12:55

Steve, I think you're absolutely right, a definite first for F1

Also, first automotive use of the NACA duct?

Regards
Glenn

#85 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 5,907 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 03 July 2017 - 13:03

It appears that we're up to a grand total of one (1) Formula One-specific innovation in 70-odd years...  :eek:



#86 uffen

uffen
  • Member

  • 1,892 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 03 July 2017 - 13:10

It appears that we're up to a grand total of one (1) Formula One-specific innovation in 70-odd years...  :eek:

And it was done by a car manufacturer, not your typical F1 team. Did Renault, or anyone else, actually use pneumatic valves in a road car engine?

 If so, it was of marginal use. If not, it was an innovation that went nowhere.



#87 chunder27

chunder27
  • Member

  • 5,775 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 03 July 2017 - 13:42

Pneumatic valves were I am sure in F1 first, and it took them a long time to get into MotoGP, where they now reside on a few bikes.

Opposite for Desmodromic valves, which I think were on pre war Mercs or Auto Unions, but obvioiusly now commonplace and I think only able to be used by Ducati.



#88 wilsongt

wilsongt
  • New Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 03 July 2017 - 15:03

I'm still voting for first use of NACA duct, introducing push rod and pull rod suspension (and perhaps rocket arm suspension too)

#89 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 03 July 2017 - 16:53

Pneumatic valves were I am sure in F1 first, and it took them a long time to get into MotoGP, where they now reside on a few bikes.

Opposite for Desmodromic valves, which I think were on pre war Mercs or Auto Unions, but obvioiusly now commonplace and I think only able to be used by Ducati.

I don't think any pre-war Mercedes or Auto-Unions had desmodromic valves.  The post-war W196 did though.



#90 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 4,050 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 03 July 2017 - 16:59

Also, first automotive use of the NACA duct?

Probably the Connaught streamliner - I think we had a thread somewhere, once upon a time . . . .



#91 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,581 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 03 July 2017 - 17:14

We did indeed:

NACA ducts - first use

The consensus was that Connaught were first to use a NACA duct on a Grand Prix car, but Talbot had earlier used them on a sports racer.

#92 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,571 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 03 July 2017 - 17:16

I don't think any pre-war Mercedes or Auto-Unions had desmodromic valves.  The post-war W196 did though.

 

 

Didn't the 1914 Grand Prix Delage have desmodromic valves, though probably not quite the same as the System Mercedes used in the W196.  I have a vague memory of reading that in Pomeroy's The Grand Prix car. Given the weakness of conventional valve springs at high revs, it seems surprising that others didn't at least attempt something along the same lines.



#93 john aston

john aston
  • Member

  • 2,675 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 July 2017 - 17:19

Formula 1's two biggest legacies to road cars are almost ubiquitous and equally pointless - the  high nose  trompe d'oeil  which apes the look ,if not the function, of the 1990 Tyrrell and the faux diffuser tacked under the back of anything from a  Focus to a Mercedes and rarely , if ever, making an iota of difference  . And that is as it should be - racing is an end in itself , not a testbed for road cars, which usually have done most of the technical heavy lifting long before the trick stuff gets anywhere near a race track - turboes, autos, anti lock , pas  etc.    



#94 2F-001

2F-001
  • Member

  • 4,237 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 03 July 2017 - 18:44

Didn't the 1914 Grand Prix Delage have desmodromic valves, though probably not quite the same as the System Mercedes used in the W196.

Mathieson wrote this, in regard to 1914 French GP:

"... the indifferent performance of the Delages...  ...due, it is said, to a last minute adjustment to the positive valve operating mechanism, which, unexpectedly, caused the engined to lose power."

To me 'positive' implies positive closing by a cam, (the cars are listed as 4 ohv per cyl and 2 cams), then that does sound like (or something akin to)  desmodromic.



#95 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 03 July 2017 - 19:33

There is a detailed description of the Delage desmodromic valve gear in Karl Ludvigsen's Classic Grand Prix Cars.

#96 wilsongt

wilsongt
  • New Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:43

Thank you for pointing me to the NACA duct thread, a cherished belief of one of my heroes, Frank Costin, destroyed! ;-)

Still hanging on to rocker arm/push rod/pull rod suspension. Suspect there must be many rocker arm antecedents

Couple of others - Dunlop's huge strides in tyre materials late 50's/early 60's - F1 driven? Does chemical engineering count as innovation?

Also, who used the 'venturi' aero screen first, a la Lotus 25?

Regards
Glenn


We did indeed:

NACA ducts - first use

The consensus was that Connaught were first to use a NACA duct on a Grand Prix car, but Talbot had earlier used them on a sports racer.



#97 chunder27

chunder27
  • Member

  • 5,775 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 04 July 2017 - 10:34

Apologies, I was aware that one of Silver Arrow cars used them at some time, but do not research every point I make just to be sure, as most will be aware.  

 

I am also aware that some road tech is there and stays there. LInked brakes on motorcycles, Honda used it in 1997 but it is not used now.  VTEC is used sparingly on race engines, but rarely on full race gear raced by Honda.  So in some ways it works the other way too!



#98 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,955 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 04 July 2017 - 23:25

Originally posted by wilsongt
.....Dunlop's huge strides in tyre materials late '50s/early '60s - F1 driven?


I think you'd better put it that it was F1 inspired and tested...

But surely the profit motive, selling thousands of tyres to Lotus 11 and FJr owners, would have been more convincing than helping those supplied with free tyres along.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 04 July 2017 - 23:26.


#99 DavidI

DavidI
  • Member

  • 98 posts
  • Joined: October 13

Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:27

And it was done by a car manufacturer, not your typical F1 team. Did Renault, or anyone else, actually use pneumatic valves in a road car engine?

 If so, it was of marginal use. If not, it was an innovation that went nowhere.

Pneumatic valve springs haven't been used in road cars because keeping the system pressurised proved almost impossible. It's fine for a GP lasting a couple of hours, a small tank to "top up" the system is carried on board but it's insufficient for a road car, you'd need some sort of compressor and larger accumulator and you're adding weight and complexity for no real gain. 



Advertisement

#100 uffen

uffen
  • Member

  • 1,892 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 05 July 2017 - 12:04

Pneumatic valve springs haven't been used in road cars because keeping the system pressurised proved almost impossible. It's fine for a GP lasting a couple of hours, a small tank to "top up" the system is carried on board but it's insufficient for a road car, you'd need some sort of compressor and larger accumulator and you're adding weight and complexity for no real gain. 

Thank you, Davidl. This is what I believed, too. Also, pneumatic valves were needed to attain ever higher RPMs, another thing not needed in road cars.