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Formula 1 Gran Premio D'Italia 2015


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#651 Ellios

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:04

A Bird's Eye View of Monza

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=gbvpecmUMcw



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#652 Heisenberg

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:09

If Mercedes' problems with the new PU really are a thing of big concern, then it's a lose-lose situation for them tomorrow: the new one might fail, while the old and very used one, in best case scenario, would lack the strength to be a threat for the Ferraris and in the worst case, it would DNF! But I honestly think that the whole thing is a bit exagerrated. I wouldn't be surprised if Lewis just flies into the distance once again tomorrow, leaving everyone behind ! :p


Edited by Heisenberg, 05 September 2015 - 20:10.


#653 Jordan44

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:13

If Mercedes' problems with the new PU really are a thing of big concern, then it's a lose-lose situation for them tomorrow: the new one might fail, while the old and very used one, in best case scenario, would lack the strength to be a threat for the Ferraris and in the worst case, it would DNF! But I honestly think that the whole thing is a bit exagerrated. I wouldn't be surprised if Lewis just flies into the distance once again tomorrow, leaving everyone behind ! :p


The concern has already been put to rest: http://www.auto-moto...ri-9958964.html

#654 Crafty

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:17

So, my relaxing meal out in Como is not going to be quite so relaxing as we wait for Merc's investigation of Nico's engine and whether they deem it significant enough to require starting Lewis from the pit lane!!

On the plus side I won 70 euros on the predict the pole sitter/pole time competition mainly I suspect thanks to Merc not engaging god mode for Q3! :-)

 

If it helps: https://translate.go...t-text=&act=url

 

If that is correct Rosberg's engine was changed because they didn't have time to figure out what caused the issue, the symptom was they discovered water in the oil.

 

So they changed the engine so he'd have a car for qualifying. 

 

They've now ascertained that the car has a faulty heat exchanger that was allowing oil & water to mix. This is much less serious than an engine issue and thus Hamilton should be ok to start on the grid.

 

My interpretation is that this is a manufacturing defect (remember the dodgy steering wheel last year?) of the radiator and the engine upgrade is not related to the failure.



#655 OO7

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:24

A Bird's Eye View of Monza

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=gbvpecmUMcw

 

I wonder if the pit straight has always been kinked or if that occurred when the organisers first added a chicane to represent the first corner?



#656 Fastcake

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:25

From Autosport:

"The bodywork was only 50 per cent [secured] with all the bolts - we thought it would hold on"

Sorry, but that's a stonewall penalty in my book.

 

Easily. And since Verstappen's already at the back of the grid, the stewards could only penalise the car by giving a drive-through for the race tomorrow, unless they fancied excluded Toro Rosso from the race entirely of course.



#657 Massa

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 20:56

So Mercedes didn't turn down Hamilton engine and Toto says they run his engines like they normally do. So it mean Ferrari have made a great step with their engines, and they have 4 token left.



#658 Jordan44

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:02

So Mercedes didn't turn down Hamilton engine and Toto says they run his engines like they normally do. So it mean Ferrari have made a great step with their engines, and they have 4 token left.

I don't care, I'm looking forward to Mercedes unleashing their 'miracle engine' next year. Looks like they're doing some serious development. Ferrari are closer here because it's a shorter lap and no corners to make up your time. I doubt Ferrari are going to outdevelop and be consistently beating Mercedes by the end of the year, so it doesn't matter if the rumours about Mercedes 2016 PU are to be believed.

Someone on F1Technical is reporting Mercedes are developing "triple crown" Pistons, each additional crown should give 20 more kWhrs worth of charge per lap... Fernando may come across as sour but I think he is right. Ferrari are winning races but they are still no where near beating Mercedes to the title. Red Bull might get closer with a customer engine.

Edited by J0rd4n, 05 September 2015 - 21:08.


#659 jonpollak

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:03

In honor of Ferrari and Monza I offer you good people a special photo the night before the Monza shoot for the movie GrandPrix taken by my Father. vQrFJMs.png

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#660 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:13

I'm totally fine with the penalties.

Renault and Honda can't just stick a new engine in the back because they're embarrassing manufacturers.

Toro Rosso can't just loosely fit bodywork at their discretion.

#661 AlexS

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:17

So what or whom will break Kimi's race tomorrow? Probably leading the race in last lap....


Edited by AlexS, 05 September 2015 - 21:17.


#662 TheRacingElf

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:28

I'm totally fine with the penalties.

Renault and Honda can't just stick a new engine in the back because they're embarrassing manufacturers.

Toro Rosso can't just loosely fit bodywork at their discretion.

I agree but should the drivers and fans suffer from that? I know drivers are part of the team and all that but I still think that in this case Renault, Honda and Toro Rosso should be punished instead of ruining the drivers' race.

 

In Verstappen's case for instance he already knows the day before the race that his race is ruined unless there is a safety car, what is the point of turning the TV on if you're a fan of that particular driver?

They constantly talk about improving the show but meanwhile they ruin a driver's race before it even started, and they wonder why people don't bother to watch anymore :confused:


Edited by TheRacingElf, 05 September 2015 - 21:29.


#663 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:32

In honor of Ferrari and Monza I offer you good people a special photo the night before the Monza shoot for the movie GrandPrix taken by my Father. vQrFJMs.png

 

That is so cool, thank you very much. Yves Montand with Francoise Hardy.



#664 Kneifzange

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:33

uih!!
As I young boy I fell in love with Francoise Hardy.
And today it is still remaining.
This woman influenced many other girls at that time (and me too)..

Thanks for that great picture!

Any more out of your fathers collection?

cheers!
Propshaft

#665 Jordan44

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:34

I agree but should the drivers and fans suffer from that? I know drivers are part of the team and all that but I still think that in this case Renault, Honda and Toro Rosso should be punished instead of ruining the drivers' race.

In Verstappen's case for instance he already knows the day before the race that his race is ruined unless there is a safety car, what is the point of turning the TV on if you're a fan of that particular driver?
They constantly talk about improving the show but meanwhile they ruin a driver's race before it even started, and they wonder why people don't bother to watch anymore :confused:


And how do you propose they punish the teams but not the drivers? Team fines are not the way forward, we need to reduce the cost to be competitive, not increasing. Only other thing I can think of is docking points from the WCC, but neither Toro Rosso, McLaren or Red Bull have any to loose really. And if it moves them lower in the WCC it's loosing them serious amounts of prize money, which is even more damaging than fines.

#666 scheivlak

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:34

 what is the point of turning the TV on if you're a fan of that particular driver?

 

Maybe to see a good race from someone from the back of the grid?

 

That said, only watching F1 because you're a fan of some driver simply deserves hardship and punishment.



#667 jonpollak

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:51

uih!!
As I young boy I fell in love with Francoise Hardy.
And today it is still remaining.
This woman influenced many other girls at that time (and me too)..

Thanks for that great picture!

Any more out of your fathers collection?

cheers!
Propshaft

 


Your welcome. Yeah, I've got a few. Time and place and all that.

#668 043Max

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:52

Things can be very funny tomorrow, no worry. Let's not forget this is only the 2nd race with this new starting procedure, we had 2 cars out last time they tried it, on pre lap 1. We have 2 rookie drivers behind our beloved friend Maldonator. Massa and Rosberg could be fun to watch at the start, and Rosberg duude also don;t count out Bottas. Hell, let's put some Marrussia's somewhere midfield for fun, Some red crazyness in front and we have some nice laps at Monza after all. Bring it on. That 1st Chicane in Monza is very very tight....


Edited by 043Max, 05 September 2015 - 21:52.


#669 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:52

I agree but should the drivers and fans suffer from that? I know drivers are part of the team and all that but I still think that in this case Renault, Honda and Toro Rosso should be punished instead of ruining the drivers' race.

In Verstappen's case for instance he already knows the day before the race that his race is ruined unless there is a safety car, what is the point of turning the TV on if you're a fan of that particular driver?
They constantly talk about improving the show but meanwhile they ruin a driver's race before it even started, and they wonder why people don't bother to watch anymore :confused:


Tough ****.
Toro Rosso are being punished because Max is their driver.

We shouldn't pander to the show and drivers so much.

I understand the balance with the show but I'd rather have Mercedes dominating and everyone else floundering than playing to the lowest common denominator because the fans are upset. The fans are upset are the wrong bloody thing. Honda and Renault are clueless, embarrassingly so. Their method of throwing money and new engines at the problem is pathetic, there's no real change, just pissing money away for no good reson. If they were stable manufacturers the rule would make perfect sense.

Ferrari have shown it's possible to fight Mercedes. They have a compromised chassis this year but it's been an admirable recovery from last year and they will be there next year which is good for F1, but it's also good that F1 hasn't given them a leg up to get there.

I just can't get my head around some of it. The more I think about it the less I can laugh and the more ridiculous it is. Poor F1 tbh, some of the participants don't go it justice.

#670 Nonesuch

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 21:59

I agree but should the drivers and fans suffer from that?

 
Absolutely, the drivers are part of the team, as you said.
 
I'm not sure how the fans would 'suffer'? If anything Verstappen is likely to be in a lot more interesting and entertaining scraps than he would be starting from 11th.
 

... they ruin a driver's race before it even started ...

 
The only people who made tomorrow's race more difficult than it needed to be are the people at Toro Rosso-Renault, who - despite their best efforts - simply aren't as good at Formula One as their colleagues at Mercedes or Ferrari. There's no shame in that, but the penalties aren't handed out for laughs - they're there because Toro Rosso made a bit of a mess of things.


Edited by Nonesuch, 05 September 2015 - 22:03.


#671 Jordan44

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 22:09

No one addressed my point. How exactly do you penalise the team but not the driver other than fining them? 



#672 TheRacingElf

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 22:11

Well I seem to have a different opinion than some of you, which is fine obviously, we don't all have to have the same opinions. I think it's fair to say we all like to see Honda and Renault fixing their problems so we don't need to hand them a shitload of penalties and have a more level playing field.



#673 SamH123

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 22:46

How's long runs comparing Ferrari with Mercedes? Did anyone follow on Friday?

 

Check back to Friday evening, I posted a graph

Rosberg was about 5 seconds ahead of Raikkonen after 14 laps in their stints

Hamilton about 6 seconds ahead of Raikkonen after 8 laps

 

But Ferrari were quicker than expected in Qualifying so the same might be true for the race



#674 Jordan44

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 22:49

Check back to Friday evening, I posted a graph

Rosberg was about 5 seconds ahead of Raikkonen after 14 laps in their stints

Hamilton about 6 seconds ahead of Raikkonen after 8 laps

 

But Ferrari were quicker than expected in Qualifying so the same might be true for the race

 

Nah if the past sessions are anything to go by, Mercedes seem to have their qualifying advantage exaggerated in the practise sessions, but their long runs increase by about 4 tenths per lap in the race.



#675 Marklar

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 23:09

No one addressed my point. How exactly do you penalise the team but not the driver other than fining them?

Cutting WCC points...

#676 SlickMick

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 01:00

I know how big corporate treat each project. Sth core they try to do in house like Ferrari do F1 in Italy by themselves, sth not core they outsource to others or set separate entity which can be ditched or sold any time. So saying something like "not get external help" is just a proof that one does not understand a thing. Commitment/seriousness and resorting to outside help does not stand together, it's contradicting factor. Plus headhunting is something that is done secretly. It seems they are seeking staff offering permanent job at Milton Keynes right now as part of long term plan to expand their facility there, which has been underway for years.
http://www.onemk.co....s-26401111.html
seems the doc to municipality states that it will house R&D facility and hiring high educated staff is part of plan so I wouldnt be surprised if they have been headhunting.
Furthermore, headhunting is not easy in the first place. You have to assess what kind of talent they should get, which in itself is very long process, plus the type of engineer that can be useful immediately is the type of engineer that his/her employer would not want to let go.
So, saying "they shud headhunt", "why not headhunt" is such a naive thought. it's just funny.
BTW how do you explain those Honda guys at garage and Milton Keynes who are not Japanese?
So, just saying "refuse to get outside help, sheesh" only makes you look fool, only proves one has no idea about corporate stuffs. Or driven too much by desire of wanting to sigh at Honda perhaps.
 
Secondly it's your fault that you refuse to read and understand quotes. If you have some basic literacy and technical understanding you should be able to read and understand what Arai is saying is and how utterly wrong and funny some media and people are.
 
Sure EB must have looked pissed if asked silly questions. That's why I said they should talk directly not via incompetent reporters and jornos.
 
I do not mean to disrespect TK or sky uk btw, they can be better but their role is about fun, to present TV show. If I can subscribe SKY F1 UK, I would happily do so. Their coverage is high quality and offer rich contents so I'm eager to subscribe it instead of Japanese one that is crap if I can.
 
Anyways you have no point to come across, that's why you cannot present quotes, analysis and collect thoughts, all you can do instead is to resort to throwing sensational words like "gibberish", "2000 times", "clown" etc and finally prophecy.


You have responded twice to a post I made about EB answers to a question about Arai. Your latest response is more unrelated waffle.

The company I work for make help make spaceships, the best smart bombs money can buy, and provide software to a current F1 team. I manage huge global programs using multiple technical suppliers. You should assume I can read.

Keep trawling the internet for those Arai gems - personally I don't have the time or the inclination or the overpowering need to convince people all Japanese things are good.

Going back to my original post. Have you seen the clip? Do you agree the relationship is not healthy based on EBs reaction to direct questions? If you haven't dug out the clip, you can always blame the unscrupulous Western press again.

#677 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 04:12

No one addressed my point. How exactly do you penalise the team but not the driver other than fining them? 

 

Teams can be penalized in many different ways, in 2007 McLaren were found guilt of various offenses, and the team was excluded from the constructor's title while the drivers were allowed to keep their points.

 

In the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix Piquet Jr deliberately crashed on the instructions of Briatore. Both Briatore and Piquet were thrown out of the circus tent, but Alonso's win was allowed to stand.

 

Strange world we live in, Formula One does not follow the laws of common sense or logic, get used to it.



#678 Jimisgod

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:05

So I woke up today and realized I was in a completely different reality yesterday because Manor obviously qualified 13th and 14th.

 

These penalties are turning F1 into a joke.



#679 RaySpace

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:28

No, engines that need to be changed several times a weekend are a joke. Their competitors can do a full season on what some of these guys use in two races.

The penalty system was not designed to withstand such incompetence. Top teams have been unaffected though, you'll note.

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#680 SilverArrow31

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:28

No f1 already is a joke, or rather Renault and Honda are. Its not as if every team on the grid has these penalty's, and they are completely fair. Mercedes managed to make a reliable engine its not F1's fault those engine manufactures have screwed up. I hate it when people say these penalty's are a joke if these teams had made reliable engines then there would be no penalty's. The teams and manufactures deserve the bad press not the sport itself.


Edited by SilverArrow31, 06 September 2015 - 06:33.


#681 worsic

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 10:01

Little something

dsc6363.jpg

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dsc5652.jpg



#682 Sheeana

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 10:05

I think it's ridicoulous to want drivers not penalised for team's mistakes. Why would you want to separate a driver and a team like that? Whatever you'll come up with, it's going to affect driver one way or another, only it won't be as immediate as grid penalty or DT. Driver is a part of the team. When team makes a mistake, driver suffers. When driver makes a mistake, team suffers. If a driver causes a collision, would you want to put some personal punishment on him? After all, it's not team's fault that he caused a collision.  When driver crashes, both team and driver lose points, when car breaks down, both team and driver lose points. So why should it be any different with penalties? And mind you, I'm only drivers' fan, at least in F1.


Edited by Sheeana, 06 September 2015 - 10:09.


#683 A3

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 10:09

That pic of Max is spot on regarding focus, well done with 1/30th. :up:


Edited by A3, 06 September 2015 - 10:11.


#684 Jordan44

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 10:52

Teams can be penalized in many different ways, in 2007 McLaren were found guilt of various offenses, and the team was excluded from the constructor's title while the drivers were allowed to keep their points.

In the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix Piquet Jr deliberately crashed on the instructions of Briatore. Both Briatore and Piquet were thrown out of the circus tent, but Alonso's win was allowed to stand.

Strange world we live in, Formula One does not follow the laws of common sense or logic, get used to it.

So you propose McLaren get thrown out of the constructors championship because of their Honda engine blowing up? Or Mr Arai thrown out of the paddock? Eject the man who decided it was acceptable not to fit Max's engine cover? Penalising the driver is by far the most logical thing to do. All of those examples you gave are for serious infringements. This was a discussion about the massive amount of engine penalties, the drivers get, and Verstappen's penalty, being unfair.

Edited by J0rd4n, 06 September 2015 - 11:16.


#685 Fatgadget

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 11:12

Cutting WCC points...

And should Manor transgress?...They end the season owing points!:lol:!

#686 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 06 September 2015 - 14:34

hmm... Nasr?

 

spot on, killed both Lotii in the process