173 replies to this topic

[Spillage]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/34179522

 

Thought this might make for an interesting topic of discussion. Variously, he says that there are too many paydrivers on the grid, that the cars are not spectacular and too easy to drive, that closed cockpits are both inevitable and desirable, and that Button should come join him in sportscars.

 

There's a clip from the interview here. Note that the article posted above mentions Nasr and Ericsson as paydrivers. Webber doesn't single anyone out in particular, but I do think its interesting that he says this era - which people often argue has an unusually high level of extremely talented drivers - is in fact weaker than any point previously. Personally, I don't agree, but I'd be interested to hear what the good folk of the BB think, as well as about any of the other opinions he expressed in the interview.

[Retrofly]

I wish people would stop giving Webber a soap box to stand on.

[Marklar]

I wish people would stop giving Webber a soap box to stand on.

isnt he tomorrow also on the midweek report?

[sopa]

In the "Raikkonen re-signed by Ferrari" thread there was a claim that this contract extension shows lack of depth in F1 field, if "best alternative options" named Bottas and Hulkenberg aren't doing much, let alone others.

 

Looking at other aspects, I think Red Bull is doing the main job in bringing talented drivers into F1. Ricciardo, Kvyat, Verstappen - all very good to potentially great. McLaren "assists" them a bit with Magnussen and Vandoorne. But outside these schemes we are barely seeing any truly impressive/promising drivers getting into F1.

 

So if there was no Red Bull programme, we'd have a proper lack of talent supply! At least Red Bull provides us with some.

[onewingedangel]

Mark has a book to plug, is it really a surprise he is looking to generate a few headlines?

[sennafan24]

Today's grid has - Lewis, Alonso, Seb, D.R, Button and Rosberg. You would have to go back to around 1993 to find a selection of top drivers to rival that line-up. There are some drivers on the grid who probably shouldn't be there, but it was the same in previous eras.

 

I agree that the cars are too easy to drive. 

[redraven9]

It's funny, a couple of months ago we a had a thread about the complete opposite of this.

 

We have several great drivers being wasted in subpar cars, (Alonso, Button, Ricciardo) though.

[Marklar]

The current talent pool under the F1 is weak I have to agree with him. The current grid? No. But that could change in the future of course...

[AustinF1]

Today's grid has - Lewis, Alonso, Seb, D.R, Button and Rosberg. You would have to go back to around 1993 to find a selection of top drivers to rival that line-up. There are some drivers on the grid who probably shouldn't be there, but it was the same in previous eras.

 

I agree that the cars are too easy to drive. 

If you listen to the interview, he says the talent at the top is tremendous. It's the depth that's poor.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 September 2015 - 16:25.

[AustinF1]

Webber: "I spoke to Sebastian Vettel's father the other day...he says 'I don't get the goosebumps any more...we need to do something with the cars'"

 

 

It's funny, a couple of months ago we a had a thread about the complete opposite of this.

 

We have several great drivers being wasted in subpar cars, (Alonso, Button, Ricciardo) though.

This was really driven home at Monza. It's a travesty having these guys start at the back so much due to the disaster of a PU formula.

 

 

Thanks OP for the link to the full interview. I had only heard the smaller clip.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 September 2015 - 17:07.

[Kev00]

I wish people would stop giving Webber a soap box to stand on.

He does just repeat himself every few months but i still tend to agree with most of what he says, especially on the calibre of drivers at the moment.

[sennafan24]

If you listen to the interview, he says the talent at the top is tremendous. It's the depth that's poor.

Hmmm. I still disagree.

 

Underneath the 6 drivers I mentioned, you have Hulk, Bottas, Max, Perez, Romain, Saintz, Kimi and Massa. That's a strong selection of mid-tier drivers.

 

Edit: I missed out D.K.

Edited by sennafan24, 08 September 2015 - 18:19.

[Marklar]

If you listen to the interview, he says the talent at the top is tremendous. It's the depth that's poor.

It was always poor in the bottom (the middle is good imo)....the only thing which is worrying imo is just the talent pool under the F1...

Edited by Marklar, 08 September 2015 - 16:31.

[Jvr]

It sounds to me he is indirectly critizising the CVC/F1 current business model and related FIA regulation because the things Webber mentioned are a consequence of those.

Small to midfield Teams in F1 need to survive paydrivers or perhaps more precisely put individuals with balanced combination of talent and sponsors. I see no alternative future before the commercial rights of F1 are changed or another sporting class with different commercial rules is established that also draws the replacing public attention.

That does not mean I disagree with him but what can you do before the fans vote with their money against the current affairs.

[Fastcake]

No I don't think the current pool of drivers, which I'm also counting as drivers near F1, is the weakest it has ever been. There was much weaker grids, and much worse drivers, during the 1990s and early 2000s. The top level of talent is obviously higher, and the general competence level of the lower half of the grid has risen over the past few decades. We may still get the occasional Chandhok appear, but generally even the backmarker pay drivers have some accomplishments to their name.

 

 

It's the level below F1 and the future talent pool I'm worried about. The costs have risen to unsustainable levels, and less drivers are getting the opportunity even to give it a fair go in karting.

[AustinF1]

"The drivers want cars that are more demanding," says Webber.

"It's a bit like being an F-18 fighter pilot but flying for British Airways."

[Jon83]

I wish people would stop giving Webber a soap box to stand on.

 

Why? He's saying many things that the fans are saying, though are generally ignored.

 

Long may it continue.

[AustinF1]

Why? He's saying many things that the fans are saying, though are generally ignored.

 

Long may it continue.

This was the immediate reaction on my facebook page when I posted this there.

 

 

 

When Webber speaks, I listen...in this case, I agree wholeheartedly.

Leave it to Mark to say what's on everyone's minds.

 Absolutely correct! It is very hard to watch - not a fan of the new formula.

 

 

[hittheapex]

Today's grid has - Lewis, Alonso, Seb, D.R, Button and Rosberg. You would have to go back to around 1993 to find a selection of top drivers to rival that line-up. There are some drivers on the grid who probably shouldn't be there, but it was the same in previous eras.

 

I agree that the cars are too easy to drive. 

I agree with what you write about top drivers. This is the best era in my lifetime in that regard but Webber mentioned depth and I think he has a point there. Pay drivers aren't anything new in F1 and they are still good drivers, but not necessarily the best 20 or so for an F1 car. 

 

2012 was a decent grid all the way down I think, so it's not as if a good depth is a distant memory. The increase of pay drivers is the symptom both of CVC's greed but even more, F1 not knowing what it wants to be anymore and coming up with stupid "solutions" to the "solutions" that fixed a "problem" that really wasn't a problem.

[Jimisgod]

Webber is talking ****.

 

The Kimi situation is an aberration due to Bianchi's death and not dissimilar to Mark's friend Coulthard staying on for too long at Red Bull.

 

The midfield has a few mediocre drivers hanging in there due to $$$ (Maldonado, Ericsson and possibly Nasr) and the complete failure of McHonda, which has moved a lot of no-names up the grid 2 spots more than they should be.

 

the rest of the midfield (Hulk, Grosjean) are no worse than the blokes who floated around the midfield in Mark's day. Perez isn't much below Button - a WDC - and Magnussen was similarly close so the rest of the midfield. Verstappen is clearly a prodigy and Sainz and Kvyat are both solid.

 

The only reason why the grid looks weak is because Mercedes has no competition. One team taking 2 or 3 lucky wins every year isn't competition. There's Mercedes then a big gap back to a morass containing every other team so no one else looks like they are excelling.

[hittheapex]

No I don't think the current pool of drivers, which I'm also counting as drivers near F1, is the weakest it has ever been. There was much weaker grids, and much worse drivers, during the 1990s and early 2000s. The top level of talent is obviously higher, and the general competence level of the lower half of the grid has risen over the past few decades. We may still get the occasional Chandhok appear, but generally even the backmarker pay drivers have some accomplishments to their name.

 

I agree. F1 is not and I struggle to believe ever will be (completely) meritocratic and have the absolute best 20 or so open wheel drivers, but the standard of "pay" drivers now is much higher than even just 10 years ago, in my opinion.

Edited by hittheapex, 08 September 2015 - 19:51.

[Grayson]

I've got a lot of time for Mark Webber, but I don't think he could be any more wrong here.

 

The three multiple WDCs on the grid are going to go down as three of the sport's all time greats, and Button, Raikkonen, Rosberg, Ricciardo and Bottas would have been counted as being among the best drivers on the grid in just about any era. Hulkenberg, Massa and Grosjean have been far better than the midfield drivers of most decades, and there are plenty of young drivers behind them who could go on to be excellent.

 

The weakest drivers on the grid have a wealth of GP2 and FR3.5 wins and titles between them - they really can't be compared with the guys who were paying to be on the grid in the 80s and 90s and who were ending up five seconds or more off the pace which their cars should have shown.

 

Of course, we'd all prefer to see the best 26 drivers on Earth (or preferably quite a lot more, with only the top 26 making it through to Saturday afternoon) battling it out without having to worry about sponsorship. But given how weak the finances of quite a few F1 teams are right now, I think the grid is looking pretty good as it is. I really don't understand how Webber (or anyone else) can claim that this is the weakest talent pool that F1 has ever had.

[CountDooku]

This is the strongest F1 grid since the late 80s!

We have Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi, Button, Rosberg and Daniel. Some of these drivers will be spoken of in the same breath as Prost and Senna by the time they retire.

The field today is certainly much stronger than when Webber was in his prime.

[chunder27]

It might be a strong field in terms of driving talent.

 

But you are not seeing it AT ALL.

 

All you are seeing is tyre saving, driving within yourself and a real poor lack of their talents being displayed.

 

I think most fields at some time are good.

 

If you look back in eras were Laffite, Depailler, Arnoux, Pironi, Villeneuve, Watson, Lauda, Reutemann not evenly matched and gave good racing?  Someone mentioned 93. That was an era dominated by two men still Prost and Senna, the rest were bit parts.

 

This era is let down by one team monumentally underperforming, McLaren. And another struggling after dominane Red Bull.  It is nothing to do with drivers.

[CountDooku]

"The drivers want cars that are more demanding," says Webber.
"It's a bit like being an F-18 fighter pilot but flying for British Airways."

Poor analogy by Webba, the plane replacing the F18 can basically land itself on a carrier

[AustinF1]

There's a lot more in the sound clip and the article than just what Mark says about the driver depth. He talks about the cars, the uninspiring noise, the lack of physicality of the racing, the inevitability of closed cockpits, and more. It's worth a good listen and a read. Check it all out.

[Jimisgod]

If the world was fair we should have Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes being roughly equal and leading the charge for each engine.

 

Instead the Mercedes engine is dominant and the Renault and Honda are quite simply among the worst engines put to an F1 grid.

[AustinF1]

Poor analogy by Webba, the plane replacing the F18 can basically land itself on a carrier

But the current F18 can't. And I doubt the carrier landings (while incredibly difficult and intense) are what he's referring to. Lots of planes land on carriers, but he specifically chose the F18...an unbelievably 'athletic' performer among fighter/attack aircraft that exacts a physical toll on its pilots. You have to be the best of the best and in supreme physical and mental fitness to fly them and indeed to get the most of their capabilities. We should be using similar words about F1 cars, but we don't. Not any more.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 September 2015 - 17:16.

[MasterOfCoin]

I agree that the cars are too easy to drive. 

Physically easy to drive, not easy to drive as in driving a School Bus.

[Diablobb81]

It might be a strong field in terms of driving talent.

 

But you are not seeing it AT ALL.

 

All you are seeing is tyre saving, driving within yourself and a real poor lack of their talents being displayed.

 

I think most fields at some time are good.

 

If you look back in eras were Laffite, Depailler, Arnoux, Pironi, Villeneuve, Watson, Lauda, Reutemann not evenly matched and gave good racing?  Someone mentioned 93. That was an era dominated by two men still Prost and Senna, the rest were bit parts.

 

This era is let down by one team monumentally underperforming, McLaren. And another struggling after dominane Red Bull.  It is nothing to do with drivers.

 

  Spot on.

[maverick69]

Today's grid has - Lewis, Alonso, Seb, D.R, Button and Rosberg. You would have to go back to around 1993 to find a selection of top drivers to rival that line-up. There are some drivers on the grid who probably shouldn't be there, but it was the same in previous eras.

 

I agree that the cars are too easy to drive. 

Bang on chap.

[RealRacing]

The best metaphor for today's driving that one with the F-18 vs British Airways. Alonso, Sanz and others have said it too, just not put it that well. Regarding pay drivers,  auto-racing is becoming so expensive that, if it stays that way, all drivers will be pay drivers, if most of them aren't already. Increasingly, a driver arriving at F1 due to talent only, will be a thing of the past if it isn't already.

Depth of talent? Backmarkers are probably no worse than the Bernoldis and Katayamas of the 80s and midfield drivers probably also comparable so I don't see it. That it is the F1 era with the most WASTED talent is true.

[JHSingo]

I wish people would stop giving Webber a soap box to stand on.

 

Why? Because he talks sense?

[RealRacing]

But the current F18 can't. And I doubt the carrier landings (while incredibly difficult and intense) are what he's referring to. Lots of planes land on carriers, but he specifically chose the F18...an unbelievably 'athletic' performer among fighter/attack aircraft that exacts a physical toll on its pilots. You have to be the best of the best and in supreme physical and mental fitness to fly them and indeed to get the most of their capabilities. We should be using similar words about F1 cars, but we don't. Not any more.

I think, in the simplest of ways, the analogy is good. In theory, we have fighter pilots, who have to/like to go to extremes and should be flying fighter jets, flying transport planes, arriving safely from point A to B and delivering a marketing message. Mercedes' last statement about not wanting to supply RB has convinced me of the latter more than anything and HAM's similar position on wanting to keep an advantage, makes me think he sees F1 more as a launching pad to become another Kardashian.

Edited by RealRacing, 08 September 2015 - 17:44.

[mclarensmps]

He isn't wrong. 

Who is to say that the current cars aren't flattering some of the talent pool? 

[F1Racing90]

Webber is right IMO. We have plenty pay drivers and the more established drivers, such as Button, Alonso, Kimi, Massa are past their prime by now and will soon all retire in the next 3 years IMO.

 

Lewis & Rosberg are also both 30 years old already. A couple more seasons and natural decline will start happening.

 

The future of the grid is looking pretty poor, not a lot of young exiting talent coming though these days.

 

In the last 5 years only Ricardo and now Max have truly impressed from the rookies. And even for them it's still early days, we will see how they develop.

Edited by F1Racing90, 08 September 2015 - 17:44.

[Nonesuch]

Webber is talking ****. (...)

 

The only reason why the grid looks weak is because Mercedes has no competition. One team taking 2 or 3 lucky wins every year isn't competition. There's Mercedes then a big gap back to a morass containing every other team so no one else looks like they are excelling.

 

I agree - at least in so far as it relates to his comments about the drivers. That Ferrari wasn't able to replace Räikkönen with an exciting new driver is more or less the result of an ill-timed end of the contract and a highly unfortunate accident.

 

I have no interest in his analogies, as those inevitably descend into a discussion about the analogy itself, but his main point is fair enough: the cars are too heavy and too slow - as others have already pointed out before.

[Seanspeed]

More proof that being involved in the sport doesn't make your perspective automatically valid or worthwhile.

And I say that as somebody who likes Webber.

[YoungGun]

The grid went up a notch once Mark retired.

[jjcale]

Today's grid has - Lewis, Alonso, Seb, D.R, Button and Rosberg. You would have to go back to around 1993 to find a selection of top drivers to rival that line-up. There are some drivers on the grid who probably shouldn't be there, but it was the same in previous eras.

 

I agree that the cars are too easy to drive. 

 

You realise that you have left out KR ... right?

[Muppetmad]

Gah, I just can't agree with Webber here. He could have made two slightly different arguments and I would have agreed with him. Firstly, he could have suggested that the drivers aren't being challenged right now. That seems undeniable. Secondly, he could have suggested that the best drivers are no longer solely in F1, and that too seems undeniable. The talent pool in WEC, IndyCar and Formula E is very strong - and certainly these series boast numerous drivers who could challenge the vast majority of the F1 grid.

 

But F1's talent pool itself being weaker? No, I just don't see that. Sure, there are a few mediocre pay drivers - but that's been a truism for decades now. That there are a lot of pay drivers in general (irrespective of their talent) reflects only the sport's economic climate rather than its talent.

Edited by Muppetmad, 08 September 2015 - 18:07.

[Tsarwash]

Sour grapes and an over inflated sense of his own talent. I think that 3/4 of these drivers will prove themselves to be more talented than he ever was. Whiner.

Edit.

Ham=Alon/But=Ric=Vet=Rai=Ros/Massa=Bot=Kvy=Ver/Gro=Per=WEBBER=Hulk=Mald/Nasr=Sainz/The rest are rubbish. Yep, he's not even in my top ten.

Edited by Tsarwash, 08 September 2015 - 18:26.

[sennafan24]

You realise that you have left out KR ... right?

I had to draw the line somewhere. 

 

Kimi adds depth to the current grid. However in 2015, I don't consider him to be a top-tier driver. I rate him somewhere between 7-10. 

[AustinF1]

Sour grapes and an over inflated sense of his own talent. I think that 3/4 of these drivers will prove themselves to be more talented than he ever was. Whiner.

He says in the clip that he wasn't good enough for a championship. I don't think he has an exaggerated sense of his abilities.

[hittheapex]

He says in the clip that he wasn't good enough for a championship. I don't think he has an exaggerated sense of his abilities.

I agree, he's been open about it before. He threw the championship into the wall at Korea. Both Webber and his friend Coulthard, not always the most popular because they are seen as perennial losers, almost-did-it, journeymen has-beens by a substantial section of fans, have been quite self effacing about their own careers in my opinion. Unlike Brundle who, when asked what he thought would have happened if he had stayed at Benetton: "I think I would have won a world championship."

[ThisIsMischaW]

http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr576.html

 

This is the Italian GP from 20 years ago. A lot of nobodies and never going to be good enoughs in there. Has always been the case as well, can anyone think of a time the whole grid was full of world class drivers?

 

The problem with the grid at the moment is that there isn't enough space. We really need 26 car grids so there is more room.

[Prost1997T]

Sauber then: Wendlinger, Frentzen.

 

Sauber now: Sign 4 drivers for extra $$$.

 

I think that's the point Webber was making.

[Requiem84]

Sauber then: Wendlinger, Frentzen.

Sauber now: Sign 4 drivers for extra $$$.

I think that's the point Webber was making.

Sauber then: upcoming ambitious privateer. Sauber now: dying underfunded backmarker team.

That grid had Diniz, Katayama, Montermini etc. similar amount of paydrivers if not more. And, paydrivers were really awful that era.

We now have Maldonado, racewinner. Ericsson who is beating a 'talented' guy. Perez, previous top talent.

Webber is all sour grapes and is just trying to damage F1 for the good of his new series. In my view poor form and a bit pathetic.

[Counterbalance]

 

"The drivers want cars that are more demanding," says Webber.

"It's a bit like being an F-18 fighter pilot but flying for British Airways."

 

 

British Airways can be very frustrating to work for. And if Redbull were anywhere near as close I can fully understand why Webber always seemed so angry!

 

But anyway, back on topic. Webber makes a few good points. Yup, the midfield downwards shows a definate lack of talent, and Kerching$$$ pay drivers plague our sport, but smaller teams needs dollars to keep afloat. And dollar drivers tend to keep their seats for way longer than their talent deserves, hence the relatively stagnant pool of drivers in F1 at the moment.

[hittheapex]

http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr576.html

 

This is the Italian GP from 20 years ago. A lot of nobodies and never going to be good enoughs in there. Has always been the case as well, can anyone think of a time the whole grid was full of world class drivers?

 

The problem with the grid at the moment is that there isn't enough space. We really need 26 car grids so there is more room.

 

Although I broadly agree with your point, I'm going to be a smart arse here, go slightly off topic and throw in the fantastic grid from 1978. I compared driver line ups across seasons a few years back and in my opinion, this was the strongest in terms of depth. It doesn't have as many "greatest of all time" contenders as other seasons and there are one or two dubious appearances such as Divina Galica's few races, but the depth is brilliant. A typical, though not full grid from 1978 included these names:

 

Emerson Fittipaldi
Niki Lauda
Keke Rosberg
Alan Jones
James Hunt
Ronnie Peterson
Clay Regazzoni
Jody Scheckter

Jean-Pierre Jabouille
Carlos Reutemann
Mario Andretti
Riccardo Patrese
Rene Arnoux
Jacques Laffite
Gilles Villeneuve
Patrick Depailler
Jochen Mass
Patrick Tambay

Vittorio Brambilla
John Watson
Didier Pironi

In total 21 drivers, composed of 7 champions (or would be) champions, the rest of them championship contenders and race winners. Heck, enough to more than fill the number of cars we have in 2015, backmarkers and all.

 

Which brings me to your final point that I wholeheartedly agree with. We've usually had 2-4 more drives available and that makes it even harder for new talent to break through.

Edited by hittheapex, 08 September 2015 - 19:25.