120 replies to this topic

[Requiem84]

Verstappen revealed he had completed both those exact moves on the racing game a week ahead of the respective races.

 

"It's always good because you know how much space you have," he said.

 

"Also on simracing, sometimes you go a bit too far and you know that you can't do it.

 

"I think it helps me. I mean I did it for Spa and I did it again for Monza and two times it worked on the real track.

 

"The overtake I did on Nasr, I did exactly the same in the sim again."

 

Is Verstappen the first F1 driver who is making the bridge between simracing and real life racing? Is it the future that karting will no longer be the only talent pool for drivers, but teams will start looking at talented simracers as well? 

 

Or is simracing portrayed as too important and will the future World Champions not need any simracing at all? 

 

Discuss!

[PayasYouRace]

Jacques Villeneuve used Microprose Grand Prix 2 to learn the F1 circuits for 1996.

[Nonesuch]

Verstappen makes a good point about simracing allowing one to get a better grasp of the environment as it exists in the real world.

 

Various modern day titles (iRacing and Assetto Corsa, to name just these) and products aimed at professional drivers employ so-called laser-scanning methods to recreate the tracks with previously unimaginable precision.

 

For a guy like Verstappen, who might not have visited these locations more than a couple of times, his knowledge of the tracks can definitely be helped by these almost perfectly accurate representations.

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 09 September 2015 - 10:00.

[Requiem84]

Knowledge of tracks is one thing. This particular part is already covered, mostly, by the simulators of the F1 teams. AFAIK they definitely use laser scanned data to construct their virtual tracks.

 

What surprises me more with Verstappen, is that he is polishing his racecraft online. The F1 team sims are no more than hotlap simulators without any other drivers on track. You can learn your lines, braking points, bumps etc. But racing with other people is only experienced on very few occasions. 

[Marklar]

Jann Mardenborough became basically just with sim racing an decent driver, so yes it is getting very important these days....

[Requiem84]

Jann Mardenborough became basically just with sim racing an decent driver, so yes it is getting very important these days....

 

But these guys, like Lucas Ordon (?), Mardenborough etc, are more the exception than the rule nowadays. Would it be reversed in 2030? Will racing car drivers first start to drive virtual cars when they are 3 years old... and then combine it with karting? 

[Marklar]

But these guys, like Lucas Ordon (?), Mardenborough etc, are more the exception than the rule nowadays. Would it be reversed in 2030? Will racing car drivers first start to drive virtual cars when they are 3 years old... and then combine it with karting? 

Considering that attending to karting events and paying the equipment has become too expensive it is a possibility.

[ThisIsMischaW]

I thought his overtaking move at Spa was at the edge of being very stupid indeed, so am worried that the simulators give young drivers an unrealistic sense of the dangers involved.

[Peat]

I would say development of racecraft is as big of a use of sims as simply being able to learn tracks. Learning which way a track goes is not difficult, the laser-scanned ones are slightly more useful with the bumps/cambers etc. 

I do a bit of 'simming' on iRacing and it's just bluddy brilliant. Every waking hour of the day, you can race hard against well-matched, real, opponents. You just get so much opportunity to 'try things out'. The ultimate cost being a loss of rating and having a red-face while you apologise. Seat time, even in karts, is stupidly expensive. So sim racing is here to stay. 

With regards to it replacing the traditional route. No. Mardenborough et al have all have an incredible amount of money behind them via Nissan/GT and have shoe-horned a hell of alot of REAL racing experience into the last 3 years or so to get them up to speed. It's nothing more than a marketing exercise. You will still need bucket loads of cash to progress from bedroom to racetrack. 

Edited by Peat, 09 September 2015 - 10:23.

[Seanspeed]

For those who want to see Max's training prior to the Belgian GP:

[superden]

Sigh.

[043Max]

It's the new way, ....

 

Max-imizing all of his potential!!! (What else is a 17 year old gonna do at home between races? Hell even I drive the tracks in games before the race weekend and I am like twice his age and only watch the damn sport.

 

And those Sims nowadays are so bloody realistic, it's scary.

[CaCO]

You can also find other racing drivers in iRacing, such as Richie Stanaway, Stoffel Vandoorne, José María 'Pechito' López just to name a few, and a bunch of oval racing drivers too.

[Seanspeed]

I think drivers would be smart to use whatever resource is available to them. Be sensible about what real-life advantages it will actually give you(just as with the team simulators they use) and try and improve yourself as a driver in whatever way you think you can. I'm not sure I'd call sim racing 'important' to real life racing at all, but it could well be another tool for somebody working on racecraft and just keeping their skills sharp between races(or in the off-season) when getting out on track isn't practical/possible.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 September 2015 - 10:41.

[Mark8539]

There are plenty of pro racing drivers currently running iRacing. How many of them regard it is a training tool like Max Verstappen I don't know, particularly for F1 drivers who have access to the teams' simulators. The tracks are laser scanned, but then again the F1 teams' simulators also will be. The cars are simulated as accurately as they can manage, but again the F1 teams' simulators will be better. However, I can absolutely see its value in honing racecraft as you're racing against real people who have real reactions - something not possible in the teams' simulators. I've been 'playing' iRacing for five years now and I've learnt a lot about race cars, how to drive them and how to race them. When I watch an F1 on TV I understand what the drivers are doing a whole lot more than before I started playing iRacing (and I've been watching F1 for 30 or so years). For those who think it is some arcade game like Gran Turismo is (imho), it isn't - it is most definitely a simulator.

 

Ironically Max Verstappen is using a simulated 2009 Williams in that video.

[SpeedRacer`]

Verstappen makes a good point about simracing allowing one to get a better grasp of the environment as it exists in the real world.

 

Various modern day titles (iRacing and Assetto Corsa, to name just these) and products aimed at professional drivers employ so-called laser-scanning methods to recreate the tracks with previously unimaginable precision.

 

For a guy like Verstappen, who might not have visited these locations more than a couple of times, his knowledge of the tracks can definitely be helped by these almost perfectly accurate representations.

 

 

 

GP4 had laser scanned tracks back in 2002

[omgwtf]

No doubt sims have their part to play, down to the individual I guess and if Max finds value in it who am I to argue with him. I guess he has the very best of both worlds..

 

As good as they are currently, they don't and won't ever re-create the ass twitching moment one goes through when you're on the edge of losing a highly loaded car at 100mph + or the euphoria of getting it exactly right, or the lightness in your stomach as a car goes airborne over a blind crest, or the heat, vibration, noise, g's and smells. It's an all consuming experience that lights up your senses like nothing else. A sim racer will never understand what it feels like to be on the edge of smashing up their pride and joy and the financial headache that would come with it..

[Requiem84]

GP4 had laser scanned tracks back in 2002

 

No, that were GPS based tracks. 

 

iRacing was the first company to offer laser scanned tracks to consumers. 

 

 

No doubt sims have their part to play, down to the individual I guess and if Max finds value in it who am I to argue with him. I guess he has the very best of both worlds..

 

As good as they are currently, they don't and won't ever re-create the ass twitching moment one goes through when you're on the edge of losing a highly loaded car at 100mph + or the euphoria of getting it exactly right, or the lightness in your stomach as a car goes airborne over a blind crest, or the heat, vibration, noise, g's and smells. It's an all consuming experience that lights up your senses like nothing else. A sim racer will never understand what it feels like to be on the edge of smashing up their pride and joy and the financial headache that would come with it..

 

 

If it would replace all those things, real racing wouldn't be required anymore and we would watch simraces on TV. Which, most likely, will never happen. It's an instrument to shapren your real life skills, not a replacement of the real life experience. 

[chunder27]

I think there is too much emphasis put on simulators, not helped by the companies that make them thinking they are the most amazing things ever made (the only thing amazing is the price tags and the rich berks that buy then)

 

They are nothing more than a tool, exactly the same as a flight simulator. They can teach you how to manage your thought patterns, how to deal with pressure situations and how to read dials and cope with stressful things.

 

But they will NEVER replace the actual deed of driving, the feel you get from that and the extra senses that are related, vision, sight, sound, smell.

 

Remember Fango knowing there was an accident ahead becauise he saw the crowd looking ahead instead of at him? No simulator can accurately portray that kind of thing. How do simulate Hakkinen and Schumacher at Spa? Or Mansell on piquet inj 87. Impossible.

 

All they can teach is track layout, the effect of certain setup changes and training in dealing with pit stops, cautions, pace cars and also new steering wheel things etc. Nothing more.

 

Nissan, Sony and Polyphony have a lot to answer for, and not only endlesly patching one of the poorest "simulators" of all time.

[Kristian]

Its funny; Brundle said in the commentary over the Italian GP weekend that Verstappen drives like he's in a computer game. Now we know why!

[TurnOffTheLights]

These days especially for young and inexperienced drivers like Verstappen SimRacing can be a good, cheap, legal and safe way to quicker gain experience at a certain track.

So it's a very intelligent and professional approach by him to use it and might give him a slight advantage over the equally inexperienced Sainz.

But I think, after some years in Formula 1 and more "real" experience the benefit of SimRacing for a Formula 1 race weekend will likely tend to be marginal.

[noikeee]

All they can teach is track layout, the effect of certain setup changes and training in dealing with pit stops, cautions, pace cars and also new steering wheel things etc. Nothing more.

 

Well apparently Max learnt a bit of racecraft so there's that too. I agree there's limits as to what can you learn in sims, but this is a bit of a new development as I had never heard of a driver using a sim seriously for this purpose.

 

I reckon this is the best bit of PR iRacing's had for a while (though I found it funny Autosport declined to name the sim in its news article  - concerns it could come off as advertising and pissing off competitors?).

[Seanspeed]

Remember Fango knowing there was an accident ahead becauise he saw the crowd looking ahead instead of at him? No simulator can accurately portray that kind of thing. How do simulate Hakkinen and Schumacher at Spa? Or Mansell on piquet inj 87. Impossible.
 
All they can teach is track layout, the effect of certain setup changes and training in dealing with pit stops, cautions, pace cars and also new steering wheel things etc. Nothing more.
 
Nissan, Sony and Polyphony have a lot to answer for, and not only endlesly patching one of the poorest "simulators" of all time.

Have a lot to answer for? What am I reading? lol

Anyways, I've probably had more thrilling moments than Schumacher/Hakkinen and Spa and everything doing sim racing. Of course there was less drama over it because it wasn't two world champs fighting it out in the elite road racing motorsport, but I've had lots of moments where the battling and moves were actually just as incredible, if not moreso from a pure racing perspective. You can definitely learn some lessons about situational awareness and thinking in the heat of battle for a given track. If you're up against competitive players, then there's a good chance they will react fairly similarly to how a real life racer would react.

[omgwtf]

No, that were GPS based tracks. 

 

iRacing was the first company to offer laser scanned tracks to consumers. 

 

 

If it would replace all those things, real racing wouldn't be required anymore and we would watch simraces on TV. Which, most likely, will never happen. It's an instrument to shapren your real life skills, not a replacement of the real life experience. 

 

An instrument to aid knowledge and understanding that is true..

 

However I can't see how a "virtual" simulated environment can sharpen "real life" skills though, the two don't go together.

[Requiem84]

Well,

 

 

 

An instrument to aid knowledge and understanding that is true..

 

However I can't see how a "virtual" simulated environment can sharpen "real life" skills though, the two don't go together.

 

 

Well, didn't Verstappen just prove that? 

 

He practiced the Blanchimont move, felt comfortable enough to execute it in real life and did so. Same to his move on Nasr. 

 

He might have done the same moves without the prior simracing experience, but would it have worked out so good? He now went into those moves thinking 'it is possible, it fits, I need to wait with corner entry right here, leave this much room on the inside etc... It's like he's done that move a few times before, although in a environment that was safe, but also much more superficial. 

 

So in that sense, I think you can 'experiment' a lot more in sims without the risk of destroying a 1,5 million car. It will not translate 100% to real life, but even 30% is enough to gain you an advantage of your competitiors that don't use the same instrument. 

[omgwtf]

Well,

 

 

Well, didn't Verstappen just prove that? 

 

He practiced the Blanchimont move, felt comfortable enough to execute it in real life and did so. Same to his move on Nasr. 

 

He might have done the same moves without the prior simracing experience, but would it have worked out so good? He now went into those moves thinking 'it is possible, it fits, I need to wait with corner entry right here, leave this much room on the inside etc... It's like he's done that move a few times before, although in a environment that was safe, but also much more superficial. 

 

So in that sense, I think you can 'experiment' a lot more in sims without the risk of destroying a 1,5 million car. It will not translate 100% to real life, but even 30% is enough to gain you an advantage of your competitiors that don't use the same instrument. 

 

As I said at the start "No doubt sims have their part to play, down to the individual I guess and if Max finds value in it who am I to argue with him. I guess he has the very best of both worlds.."

 

​From my personal experience a sim has some way to go to recreate a "real" racing environment. Yes they help in a number of ways, I get that. I guess it's a generation thing also, I've had to learn all the circuits I've raced on myself, sometime the hard way but that's part and parcel of doing it for real.

[EightGear]

I think there is too much emphasis put on simulators, not helped by the companies that make them thinking they are the most amazing things ever made (the only thing amazing is the price tags and the rich berks that buy then)

 

 

We're not talking about the setup/rigs, just the software and essential needs like a wheel and pedal set. They're not too expensive at all.

Different kinds of seats/simrigs won't necessarily make you a faster/better simracer.

 

I've been simracing for several years now, mainly rFactor (2), Assetto Corsa, etc. There's more to it than just iRacing - which will set you back the most. At my league there's been some real life drivers doing it for fun and training.

 

Some years ago Stoffel Vandoorne joined us for a WTCC race at Imola which he won. Nobody knew him back then, he was still in Formula 4.

Edited by EightGear, 09 September 2015 - 12:21.

[LBDN]

 

 

An instrument to aid knowledge and understanding that is true..

 

However I can't see how a "virtual" simulated environment can sharpen "real life" skills though, the two don't go together.

 

 

I disagree. It would certainly help racecraft such as dealing with cars around you. The more you practice race situations the more experienced you become. 

 

If you did 1000 race starts online with real competitors that is surely going to have an impact on real life starts and improve the awareness of whats going on around you.

[Jejking]

 

Is Verstappen the first F1 driver who is making the bridge between simracing and real life racing? Is it the future that karting will no longer be the only talent pool for drivers, but teams will start looking at talented simracers as well? 

 

Or is simracing portrayed as too important and will the future World Champions not need any simracing at all? 

 

Discuss!

 

Same discussion popped up at a Dutch forum today, but was cut short by an admin because it went offtopic. You don't know anything about that perhaps?

[PassWind]

No, that were GPS based tracks. 

 

iRacing was the first company to offer laser scanned tracks to consumers. 

 

 

If it would replace all those things, real racing wouldn't be required anymore and we would watch simraces on TV. Which, most likely, will never happen. It's an instrument to shapren your real life skills, not a replacement of the real life experience. 

 

No it wasn't there were track packs in Rfactor that were laser mapped. Eastern Creek being one of the first I can remember being done. 

[Mark8539]

 

 

However I can't see how a "virtual" simulated environment can sharpen "real life" skills though, the two don't go together.

 

 

In a virtual environment you can practise driving around other cars, experiment with lines, practise defending moves, practise overtaking moves, practise when to hold back, when to attack. In an online environment you can also have a certain amount of pressure to deal with and need to handle it to prevent mistakes etc. - sure it won't be anything like the amount of pressure compared to a real life race, but it is there still. With the advent of consumer level VR headsets and Direct Drive wheels it is getting closer and closer to the real thing. It can never be like the real thing, but it's a long way from Mario Kart.

[PassWind]

If the fidelity of the simulator is effective then its a good tool, if not it will be counter productive in some areas. 

[rhukkas]

What Max is doing isn't anything new, really he is just highlighting what a few guys have done for years.

 

What I want to highlight is karting is NOT a talent pool. it's a money pool. it's where you guy to see who has enough money to make it. The days of karting being a talent pool are long gone. In that sense sim racing won't be any different. It doesn't matter how good you are the only thing that matters is if you can bring the cash to spend in the real world.

 

What we are seeing with Max and I note this is NOTHING new is race drivers using sim not just to 'learn tracks' (I horribly old fashioned view of sims. I know people that have used sims liek this for 10 years, and they are VERY fast and very good drivers) but top drivers using the sims as a resource to improve beyond that. The guys Max is simming with online are the best of the best.

[lars75]

What Max is doing isn't anything new, really he is just highlighting what a few guys have done for years.

 

What I want to highlight is karting is NOT a talent pool. it's a money pool. it's where you guy to see who has enough money to make it. The days of karting being a talent pool are long gone. In that sense sim racing won't be any different. It doesn't matter how good you are the only thing that matters is if you can bring the cash to spend in the real world.

 

What we are seeing with Max and I note this is NOTHING new is race drivers using sim not just to 'learn tracks' (I horribly old fashioned view of sims. I know people that have used sims liek this for 10 years, and they are VERY fast and very good drivers) but top drivers using the sims as a resource to improve beyond that. The guys Max is simming with online are the best of the best.

 

Well  I won't speak against the fact that money is essential in karting as well. But all the money in the world can not make you a better driver, it just hands you better chances. 

 

If I had the same budget and resources as Verstappen had in karting, I would never be able to beat him. And even if his dad would lay his hands on my engine I would not be able to beat him. Even if he used a engine wich not was be worked by his father and I would, I wouldn't beat him! And for that matter all other CRG factory drivers (of who I think to believe understand what they are doing on a professional level as Thonon and Pex for example) could not beat him in any way possible. Would that just be up to Jos? Because Jos worked on the Pex boys karts/engines as well as a close friend to the family.

 

So yes it is money based, but the talent Max is extremly rare and therefor we can still say it is a display of talent as well.

[Requiem84]

What Max is doing isn't anything new, really he is just highlighting what a few guys have done for years.

 

What I want to highlight is karting is NOT a talent pool. it's a money pool. it's where you guy to see who has enough money to make it. The days of karting being a talent pool are long gone. In that sense sim racing won't be any different. It doesn't matter how good you are the only thing that matters is if you can bring the cash to spend in the real world.

 

What we are seeing with Max and I note this is NOTHING new is race drivers using sim not just to 'learn tracks' (I horribly old fashioned view of sims. I know people that have used sims liek this for 10 years, and they are VERY fast and very good drivers) but top drivers using the sims as a resource to improve beyond that. The guys Max is simming with online are the best of the best.

 

This sounds a bit like a broken record that is played all over this forum.

 

So, you're saying that either
1) Future (talented) F1 drivers will not be groomed in the world of karting
2) there is no future talent in F1. All who come through the karting ranks are not talents?

 

And let's assume what you say is true, would you then say that the talent pool starts in simracing? That is quite cheap to do... max 500 euro for a couple of years. 

[Myrvold]

He practiced the Blanchimont move, felt comfortable enough to execute it in real life and did so. Same to his move on Nasr. 

What's interesting is that he practiced it in sim, that doesn't have racing lines (in the sense that rubber gets on the ground, providing grip etc.)

[FerrariV12]

I guess another factor along with the increasing technology/realism of these sims is in this cost cutting era with testing so strictly limited, a driver won't have the opportunity like Hamilton or Villeneuve etc. to get loads of actual real world practice, so this is the next best thing.

[Nonesuch]

GP4 had laser scanned tracks back in 2002

 
Not to put too fine a point on it, but as mentioned, those weren't laser-scanned but based on GPS data.
 
Here's what Geoff Crammond, the creator of the GP series, had to say about it in an interview with James Connors:
 

Q: From our understanding the tracks were built in an earlier version of 3ds Max so what tool or program, plugin or script was used to create the .Dat-file? And would you consider releasing this to the modding community?

 

A: The tracks were created as follows: I was given the GPS raw data for all the circuits. I wrote a program (in C) to interpret and convert that to a form that my GP4 sim required. So all the gradients, track widths and kerb positions and profiles, run-off areas and fence positions are very accurate. That program created the mesh up to the fences of the circuit. I then supplied that “sim” mesh to Microprose and they used it and added outside-the-fence features for the graphics.

[ardbeg]

I've been watching some the Iracing F1 GPWC race on Youtube, with Huttu and the others. They are not very different from the real thing.

[EightGear]

What's interesting is that he practiced it in sim, that doesn't have racing lines (in the sense that rubber gets on the ground, providing grip etc.)

 

Not yet.  

 

I doubt the move would have been possible in rFactor 2 though. It will be interesting to see how iRacing will get on with dynamic tracks:

 

[Ross Stonefeld]

I actually think the racing in things like iRacing is more realistic than the driving. If that makes sense. Because it's about dealing with another human being, or packs of them, and how you respond to each other. Feeling under pressure when you take the lead, or have a big lead and only a few laps to go, etc. And you can do that even with rental gokarts if the competition is good enough.

 

What really impressed me about iRacing was when I started making mistakes that I'd made in real races.

[rhukkas]

This sounds a bit like a broken record that is played all over this forum.

 

So, you're saying that either
1) Future (talented) F1 drivers will not be groomed in the world of karting
2) there is no future talent in F1. All who come through the karting ranks are not talents?

 

And let's assume what you say is true, would you then say that the talent pool starts in simracing? That is quite cheap to do... max 500 euro for a couple of years. 

 

Do you read what I am saying or choosing to ignore it.

 

Stop using the word 'talent'. What enables a driver to race KF level within the CIK is money, pure and simple. That's it. And it will cost you upwards of £200k a year. That's NOT a talent pool. Do you not wonder why so many of these F1 teams no longer sign up and coming karters? Coz it's all nonsense if you looking for 'talent'. The sport of karting, at the elite level at least, is absolutely tiny compared to where it was 20 years ago. 

 

the defining factor now is money. F1 drivers will come through karting still, but it doesn't mean karting groomed their talent. it just means that's all the dads could do when their kid wasn't odl enough to do cars.

[noikeee]

What's interesting is that he practiced it in sim, that doesn't have racing lines (in the sense that rubber gets on the ground, providing grip etc.)

 

Amusingly an update that adds a feature of rubbered-in tracks, marbles, temperature changes in the tarmac etc, is being deployed exactly right now as I type this post.

 

I kind of agree with the concerns that training overtakes, to see if they're possible or not in certain places like Max put it, might be a little counter-productive because not only these factors aren't (weren't) simulated; the car is considerably different, with different levels of downforce etc. On the other hand training racecraft and situational awareness can only be good, even if in a virtual environment.

 

 
Not to put too fine a point on it, but as mentioned, those weren't laser-scanned but based on GPS data.
 
Here's what Geoff Crammond, the creator of the GP series, had to say about it in an interview with James Connors:
 

 

Which is a much lower level of detail, as laser-scanning gives you all the little bumps in the road that interfere with the car's handling and might even make the racing line slightly different, and gives you inch-perfect elevation changes. If I'm simracing for the sake of simracing and enjoying myself, it might not make that much difference (though after trying a laser-scanned track I can NEVER go back to a sim that doesn't have a laser-scanned version of it), if I'm in a car that's not too fussed about bumps; but if you're training for a real life event in that track, it sure as hell would make a huge difference.

[ardbeg]

A good simulator is a good simulator but it is not real thing. In a simulator you can try things that you can not afford, or dare, to try live. You can put yourself in more tricky situation during a weekend in a simulator than during a life time in the real thing. Of course you learn. If the simulation is good, you learn things you might have use for. Maybe it saves your life. Ask an air plane pilot. It is rare that they  decide to test emergency landings with 200 people on board.

 

The simulators are getting better, more and more imprtant. The VR technology is just around the corner (for consumers) and it will make it even more realistic. The teams all have simulators, but they all seem very focused on lapping. Max simulates racing and he does it together with the best sim racers in the world.

 

Of course, had iRacing been less realistic maybe his practice could have led to disaster.

[Myrvold]

Not yet.

 

I doubt the move would have been possible in rFactor 2 though. It will be interesting to see how iRacing will get on with dynamic tracks:

 

 

Amusingly an update that adds a feature of rubbered-in tracks, marbles, temperature changes in the tarmac etc, is being deployed exactly right now as I type this post.

Yup, I know about it, I'm just slightly sceptical, as some important things (like the heat-cam) is removed. The cynic in me says it is because it doesn't function properly. Also iRacing seem to just overlook a few issues.

 

Aaanyway, it won't affect me, as I find iRacing to be a bit to expensive for what I get from it

[sjakie]

Jacques Villeneuve used Microprose Grand Prix 2 to learn the F1 circuits for 1996.

 

I was thinking about that one too. It was at the Nurburgring I think where he was asked if he had the same result in Grand prix 2 as he had in real life (a win). "No, I was 16th!"

 

Back to topic. Using sims is a very good way to practice. However I do not think that a very good simracer is automaticely a very good driver. But a very good driver is always a very good simracer I think.

Furthermore I hope it doesn't lead to sim behaviour in real life, as if you can do whatever you want as you will always have another life after a crash.

[Requiem84]

Do you read what I am saying or choosing to ignore it.

 

Stop using the word 'talent'. What enables a driver to race KF level within the CIK is money, pure and simple. That's it. And it will cost you upwards of £200k a year. That's NOT a talent pool. Do you not wonder why so many of these F1 teams no longer sign up and coming karters? Coz it's all nonsense if you looking for 'talent'. The sport of karting, at the elite level at least, is absolutely tiny compared to where it was 20 years ago. 

 

the defining factor now is money. F1 drivers will come through karting still, but it doesn't mean karting groomed their talent. it just means that's all the dads could do when their kid wasn't odl enough to do cars.

 

'Stop using the word talent (...). That is not a talent pool' 

 

Better head your own advice my aggressive friend ;). 

 

'Do you wonder why F1 teams no longer sign up up and coming karters'
When did they ever do that? Perhaps Hamilton yes, but was he the norm or the exception? 

 

'F1 drivers will come through karting still, but it doesn't mean karting groomed their talent. it just means that's all the dads could do when their kid wasn't odl enough to do cars.'

A talent pool is not so much about grooming your talent. It is more so a pond in which a lot of fish swim and some talented fish will survive and others will not. The karting grounds are the first grounds were a selection is made. 

 

Anyway, this topic is totally not about karting, but about simracing and the correlation to real racing. If you have severe issues with the state of karting, I'd suggest you open a new topic yourself. 

Edited by Requiem84, 09 September 2015 - 13:58.

[omgwtf]

I disagree. It would certainly help racecraft such as dealing with cars around you. The more you practice race situations the more experienced you become. 

 

If you did 1000 race starts online with real competitors that is surely going to have an impact on real life starts and improve the awareness of whats going on around you.

 

 

In a virtual environment you can practise driving around other cars, experiment with lines, practise defending moves, practise overtaking moves, practise when to hold back, when to attack. In an online environment you can also have a certain amount of pressure to deal with and need to handle it to prevent mistakes etc. - sure it won't be anything like the amount of pressure compared to a real life race, but it is there still. With the advent of consumer level VR headsets and Direct Drive wheels it is getting closer and closer to the real thing. It can never be like the real thing, but it's a long way from Mario Kart.

 

The more you "race" the more experienced you become. The two environments could not be further apart though, sitting on a rainy grid, looking through a visor, roll cage restricting your peripheral vision, sitting low in a car, windscreen screen misting up and trying to second guess where your competitors are going to be (by using your ears to gauge how close a car is to your side) are all things a sim cannot recreate and that's before the lights have even gone out..

 

 

[rhukkas]

'Stop using the word talent (...). That is not a talent pool' 

 

Better head your own advice my aggressive friend ;). 

 

'Do you wonder why F1 teams no longer sign up up and coming karters'
When did they ever do that? Perhaps Hamilton yes, but was he the norm or the exception? 

 

'F1 drivers will come through karting still, but it doesn't mean karting groomed their talent. it just means that's all the dads could do when their kid wasn't odl enough to do cars.'

A talent pool is not so much about grooming your talent. It is more so a pond in which a lot of fish swim and some talented fish will survive and others will not. The karting grounds are the first grounds were a selection is made. 

 

Anyway, this topic is totally not about karting, but about simracing and the correlation to real racing. If you have severe issues with the state of karting, I'd suggest you open a new topic yourself. 

 

haha you have absolutely no idea about karting my friend. Spend a weekend at a big cik meeting and you'll see the farce it has become.

[rhukkas]

The more you "race" the more experienced you become. The two environments could not be further apart though, sitting on a rainy grid, looking through a visor, roll cage restricting your peripheral vision, sitting low in a car, windscreen screen misting up and trying to second guess where your competitors are going to be (by using your ears to gauge how close a car is to your side) are all things a sim cannot recreate and that's before the lights have even gone out..

 

Do you think drivers are stupid? they know there is a difference, but sim racing undoubtedly plays a significant role in developing drivers, especially ones who use it correct like max. Actually the like for like overtake he did is almost the least significant benefit you get.

 

And sim racing without a doubt can help develop skills in close racing environments. I've seen the evidence myself..