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Is F1 going the same way as CART


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#1 Silverstone96

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 07:29

Are we just going to just end up with Ferrari vs Merc in the engine stakes? Looks like the most attractive option for Renault is to withdraw as F1 isn't prepared to pay them enough historical £££ to show they want them to stay.
As for Honda that's another story.

But it seems a lot of the mistakes of CART in the late 90's are now being repeated by F1, we all know how that ended!

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#2 lustigson

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 07:31

If it does, it will probably be bought-out/rescued by WEC.   :drunk:



#3 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 07:32

No.



#4 anbeck

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 07:38

The "good" thing is that F1 is so weak that a breakup series is impossible right now. There's no strong manufacturer alliance that might threaten it, and all the other teams are bust if they say "no" to Bernie's money. They don't have any power to demand a more equal distribution of that money. Ironically, their mess is arguably the result of the way the money is distributed, so Bernie's divide et impera is working out perfectly.

 

So F1 will stick around for now, because all current teams except for Red Bull and Mercedes (both could just shut down and walk away) depend on F1. Even in the sorry state it is now.



#5 Silverstone96

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 07:45

I don't think F1 will ever die...but these engine regs have been a disaster really.

Units are too expensive and have led to worse racing which in turn is turning off the audience.

Considering the V6's were meant to attract new manufacturers it's ironic that there is more chance of makes leaving F1 than arriving now

#6 wj_gibson

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 07:56

The "good" thing is that F1 is so weak that a breakup series is impossible right now. There's no strong manufacturer alliance that might threaten it, and all the other teams are bust if they say "no" to Bernie's money. They don't have any power to demand a more equal distribution of that money. Ironically, their mess is arguably the result of the way the money is distributed, so Bernie's divide et impera is working out perfectly.

 

So F1 will stick around for now, because all current teams except for Red Bull and Mercedes (both could just shut down and walk away) depend on F1. Even in the sorry state it is now.

 

I'm not sure the threat of a break-out is quite the issue. I think CART ran into serious trouble when it changed the engine rules to obscure 2.65l engines, which was a typically arrogant and insular decision by peopel who thought their series was more or less the only show in town. If Renault decides to leave rather than buy Lotus then I think the sport is in major trouble. Dieter Rencken's article is quite alarming, but not alarmist - it is in fact entirely realistic IMO. No on eis going to enter F1 now since the engine regs only go to 2020 and will inevitably change for 2021. Hence, th einvestment in a V6 turbo simply isn't worth it. The sport should have done a lot more to sell the idea to all the major motor manufacturers, really.

 

About 20-25 years ago there were some discussions in the print press about Ecclestone being worried that the sport might run out of engine suppliers (this was around the time that Honda left and McLaren had to take a scond tier Ford V8). Maybe it's a sign of Ecclestone's waning powers that this time around he doesn;t seem to have any answers, or even seems to have much interest.



#7 Victor_RO

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 08:13

I think CART ran into serious trouble when it changed the engine rules to obscure 2.65l engines, which was a typically arrogant and insular decision by peopel who thought their series was more or less the only show in town.

 

I'm sorry, but that's BS. CART/Indycar had the 2.65 liter engine capacity since it started in 1979, most teams in that year were using the Cosworth DFX that was 2.65 liters and had been developed since 1976. And that engine capacity stuck in the rules until Champ Car died in '08. So does that mean that they ran into trouble from the very start of the series?



#8 Knot

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 08:16

We only have to look at FIA's excellent stewardship of WRC to know where they are taking F1.



#9 teejay

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 08:19

I'm sorry, but that's BS. CART/Indycar had the 2.65 liter engine capacity since it started in 1979, most teams in that year were using the Cosworth DFX that was 2.65 liters and had been developed since 1976. And that engine capacity stuck in the rules until Champ Car died in '08. So does that mean that they ran into trouble from the very start of the series?

 

29 years later it came to be that the series died so yes!

 

/sarcasm



#10 wj_gibson

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 08:30

Well, that's the way I remember it. The manufacturers all basically jumping ship with engine reg changes.



#11 Lennat

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 08:44

In hindsight it might have worked better to simply replace the ICE part first, while keeping the same old KERS-system for a while (with a higher fuel flow rate to compensate of course). But to keep the ancient V8 engines forever? No thanks.



#12 teejay

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 08:51

Well, that's the way I remember it. The manufacturers all basically jumping ship with engine reg changes.

 

No offense, your memory is terrible. 

 

The demise of CART had NOTHING to do with the tech side. 



#13 FerrariV12

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 09:06

Regarding CART engine changes. The 2.65 turbos were used for the series' duration, where wires might be getting crossed is that they did consider adopting IRL engine specs for 2003, however this was a result of rather than a cause of the defections. It was basically an attempt to keep Honda and Toyota involved, but when that didn't work they backtracked and did a deal with the one remaining manufacturer (Ford/Cosworth) to supply their 2.65l turbo as a spec unit, which remained in place for the rest of the series life. The IRL-spec engine Cosworth had been working on ended up with a Chevrolet badge on it in late 2003.

 

Judd had been working on a 3.5 N/A motor for the CART series with an MG badge, not sure what happened to that but it certainly never saw life in a US open wheel car, I remember there being a bit of acrimony that CART had kind of led them up the path with their indecisiveness. 



#14 Razoola

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 09:16

It would not surprise me at this point if Renault would pull out. If they wanted to do that now is the right time.

#15 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 09:41

Well, that's the way I remember it. The manufacturers all basically jumping ship with engine reg changes.

 

I recall CART dithering on a replacement engine formula -- hence the opportunity for Toyota and Honda to move to the IRL.



#16 teejay

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 09:43

By the time the moves were done, the castle walls were crumbling. 

 

That was the effect, not the cause. 



#17 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 09:43

Judd had been working on a 3.5 N/A motor for the CART series with an MG badge, not sure what happened to that but it certainly never saw life in a US open wheel car, I remember there being a bit of acrimony that CART had kind of led them up the path with their indecisiveness. 

 

:(

 

Not to mention the Judd-Lotus disaster...

 

 

Judd 4.2 V10 :D :D :D

 

^ All that needed to do was stick one of these into the back of the Panoz... good for 24 hours - 2500-3000 miles between rebuilds?? But anyway besides the point...



#18 Disgrace

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 14:05

What car is that?



#19 Christbiscuit

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 14:35

It's not the same, CART was entertaining right up to the end.



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#20 Rob

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 15:32

CART had a competitor with the most recognisable race and a willingness to run at a massive loss in order to win the war.

 

F1 doesn't really have a competing series. If it did then it would have to up its game.



#21 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 10 September 2015 - 17:33

CART had a competitor with the most recognisable race and a willingness to run at a massive loss in order to win the war.

 

F1 doesn't really have a competing series. If it did then it would have to up its game.

Precisely