23 replies to this topic

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

This is a question that seems to be simple or maybe not.

 

- Is there any rule that prevent current power unit manufacturers to test their power unit on tracks in development mule?

 

If the answer is yes:

 

I want to know if current power unit constructors, test their power unit in development mule on tracks or not?

I want to know how FIA can inspect and discover probable on track tests?

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For example:

 

Imagine a company like Mercedes or Ferrari or Renault or Honda have installed a Formula1 power unit in a development mule and test on the track somewhere in Europe, America or Asia or .... 

 

How FIA can discover that they are illegally testing their power unit?

I have no idea to be honest.

 

Even if we assume that FIA are able to discover and inspect illegal on track tests (I doubt it very much). Manufacturers don't even need to test exactly the same power unit. They can easily test a slightly different power unit on tracks in development mule for example for their road cars.

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I imagine they can do anything they want. or Am I missing something?!

 

Formula1 are full of shortcuts and loopholes and as Formula1 history has taught us, there is no hesitation by Formula1 teams to experience those leeways.

Edited by RYARLE, 10 September 2015 - 21:30.

[CountDooku]

I think there were rumours that Ferrari did this in one of their road cars in late 2013.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

I think there were rumours that Ferrari did this in one of their road cars in late 2013.

I remember that and I don't know if it is true or not but I guess it is one example through many that we could see as someone was able to record it. I suspect most of the current manufacturers are testing their power unit on tracks without FIA being aware.

Edited by RYARLE, 10 September 2015 - 21:47.

[4Wheeldrift]

I must admit to wondering how the FIA police this one as I'd heard the rumours of an FXX previously, but the LaFerrari makes more sense.

[oetzi]

Does it?

[Wuzak]

Theoretically they could use one of their old F1 cars, modified to fit the power unit.

[Timstr11]

If the environment in which the powerunit is integrated is not the same as it would be in the F1 chassis, it is a pointless exercise.

It was reported that Mercedes designed a bespoke chassis-dyno with AVL, which is basically the complete car witout the wheels on a rig. Pretty effective as they rolled out the car and hit the ground running in 2014.

Edited by Timstr11, 11 September 2015 - 06:51.

[Marklar]

If the environment in which the powerunit is integrated is not the same as it would be in the F1 chassis, it is a pointless exercise.
It was reported that Mercedes designed a bespoke chassis-dyno with AVL, which is basically the complete car witout the wheels on a rig. Pretty effective as they rolled out the car and hit the ground running in 2014.

Isnt AVL assosiated with Red Bull?

[Timstr11]

Isnt AVL assosiated with Red Bull?

 

AVL is associated with the entire automotive industry.

 

There was a quote from Lauda on AMuS about the setup: http://www.auto-moto...ch-7966855.html

Edited by Timstr11, 11 September 2015 - 06:44.

[Marklar]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, it is allowed, because the sporting regulations are just defiening the rules regarding testing of current cars, previous years cars and historic cars, so just F1 cars.

AVL is associated with the entire automotive industry.

I know,regarding F1 I just hear all the time that AVL has an cooperation with RB/Renault, I never heard something about anyone else.

[taran]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, it is allowed, because the sporting regulations are just defiening the rules regarding testing of current cars, previous years cars and historic cars, so just F1 cars.

I know,regarding F1 I just hear all the time that AVL has an cooperation with RB/Renault, I never heard something about anyone else.

 

So there's nothing to prevent a team to design their "2016" car a year ahead and test it during 2015?

As many rich teams already seem to work with alternating design teams anyway, why don't they?

[Timstr11]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, it is allowed, because the sporting regulations are just defiening the rules regarding testing of current cars, previous years cars and historic cars, so just F1 cars.

I know,regarding F1 I just hear all the time that AVL has an cooperation with RB/Renault, I never heard something about anyone else.

 

The report of an AVL designed rig at Mercedes was before the 2014 season started.

Redbull/Renault went to them for help after they discovered how much trouble they were in.

Edited by Timstr11, 11 September 2015 - 06:57.

[Marklar]

So there's nothing to prevent a team to design their "2016" car a year ahead and test it during 2015?
As many rich teams already seem to work with alternating design teams anyway, why don't they?

Did we found a lopehole? No

I think they wrote something about current (and future?) technical regulations there, which are restricted. But I didnt read it completely.

Edited by Marklar, 11 September 2015 - 07:01.

[Sash1]

They certainly could do it before the new rules came into effect. Honda could have an old Honda chassis running around Suzuka 24/7 at the end of 2014 to prepare for this year. But they were not ready for it. I seriously doubt they can run complete powerunits in other cars once they start to participate in the championship. But that's why you should run the full thing on a dyno non-stop (like Mercedes) and not in single cylinder setup (like Renault). Honda surely has that engine on the bench daily as well. 

[SealTheDiffuser]

To answer the OPs question: Yes, it is allowed, because the sporting regulations are just defiening the rules regarding testing of current cars, previous years cars and historic cars, so just F1 cars.

I know,regarding F1 I just hear all the time that AVL has an cooperation with RB/Renault, I never heard something about anyone else.

 

Ferrrai is buildin the new spec 2016 together with AVL...

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 11 September 2015 - 07:04.

[lio007]

AVL is well known for selling test benches. Their high-end product is the "dynamic test bench". You can test altogether: chassis, PU, cooling system and gearbox. But you are not allowed to fit any wings on the chassis, that's prohibited.

 

Ferrari built one this year in Maranello: http://www.auto123.c...es?artid=174037 (this article claim 4, but I doubt it)

Apperently it is not so easy to configure such a dynamic test bench in a proper way. Earlier this year Ferrari ran their PU on the dynamic benches in Graz at AVL. I don't know if they have solved the issues on the Maranello-benches, but I read recently (unfortunately I can't find the link at the moment) that Ferrari run their PU's almost 24/7 on such benches.

 

And I think earlier this year Marko said in an Interview that RBR is also going to have such a dynamic test bench.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

So the first impression that I get from these posts, is that they can test power unit on tracks unless the development mule is not the current chassis or the year before. Interesting indeed.

Edited by RYARLE, 11 September 2015 - 08:17.

[Timstr11]

And I think earlier this year Marko said in an Interview that RBR is also going to have such a dynamic test bench.

 

I doubt RedBull will as they do not have a works relationship.

 

This chassis-dyno system is a very good illustration of the benefits of being a manafacturer team or having a full works relationship.

 

RedBull and Renault decided to some ad hoc tests at an AVL facility, but if you want a permanent setup, you need to have it onsite.

 

Will Ferrari collaborate to such an extent with RedBull that they will allow a full chassis-PU dyno to be built and operated in Milton Keynes? Highly doubt it.

Will Redbull collaborate to such an extent with Ferrari that they will allow a full chassis-PU dyno to be built in Maranello? Highly doubt it.

Edited by Timstr11, 11 September 2015 - 09:32.

[Talisman]

They certainly could do it before the new rules came into effect. Honda could have an old Honda chassis running around Suzuka 24/7 at the end of 2014 to prepare for this year. But they were not ready for it. I seriously doubt they can run complete powerunits in other cars once they start to participate in the championship. But that's why you should run the full thing on a dyno non-stop (like Mercedes) and not in single cylinder setup (like Renault). Honda surely has that engine on the bench daily as well.

The single cylinder setup is used by all manufacturers as an initial development tool to test out concepts. If it works as a single cylinder then the full ICE is built and tested on a dyno. That includes Renault, they've always been using dynos...

[maverick69]

I'm surprised Honda didn't use a DW12.

[SealTheDiffuser]

So the first impression that I get from these posts, is that they can test power unit on tracks unless the development mule is not the current chassis or the year before. Interesting indeed.

 

I still think it wasn't allowed originally. ?

[Talisman]

I'm surprised Honda didn't use a DW12.

Honda R and D don't have any dealings with indycar, plus IIRC Dallara leases chassis directly to the teams so Honda can't just pinch one.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

I still think it wasn't allowed originally. ?

I have searched everywhere. No result 

Edited by RYARLE, 11 September 2015 - 17:07.

[oetzi]

I still think it wasn't allowed originally. ?

I think so too.