22 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

At Benetton Herbert had no chances against Schumacher.

But at Lotus, he was not that bad against Häkkinen.

 

They only had a full season together in 1992. And there Herbert was beaten at points by Häkkinen with 2 to 11, but in qualifying he won the pairing with 9:7.

 

So can you tell me your rememberings about that two in the 1992er season?

[MLC]

Without looking up the details of the races, in my memory they were fairly evenly matched. At the time I liked the pairing as I rated Hakkinen quite well from his British F3 campaign and Herbert from his stolen promise due to leg injuries. They seemed to get on well too. The car wasn't that competitive but each driver gave the impression that they would go to achieve good things.

[essjay]

At Lotus there was nothing between them in lap time, although it did take Johnny longer to get there, which I believe was a result of his accident.  Mika was also quicker to respond in changing conditions, again possibly due to Johnny's accident. 

 

They did get along very well and had many laughs together.

 

Johnny was never given a fair chance against Schumacher.

[FerrariV12]

I've recently managed to re-watch the full 1992 season online (even some races in English), and yeah there wasn't much in it. Herbert was better out the blocks, he was superb in South Africa in the old car, although Hakkinen's Hungary drive was probably more impressive. Both were well up in Japan too before both retired.

 

They were only two years from their demise but that 1992 Lotus team was really one on the way back up. Two top drivers, a decent car in the 107 once it arrived, decent engine, shame how it all turned out really.

Edited by FerrariV12, 16 September 2015 - 22:19.

[Prost1997T]

Well there was this:

 

[AJCee]

They were very evenly matched in 1992.  Those who deal only in results and statistics will never believe you though.

 

In my opinion, the pre Brands '88 Herbert was just about the most promising British driver I'd seen in a decade of attending races, his 1987/88 F1 tests only made that feeling stronger.  That he still managed to have a Grand Prix winning career after his accident is testament to his talent in my view.  There are many who will tell you he wasn't any good and his three GP wins were 'lucky', but you have to be at the head of the queue behind to actually benefit from someone else's mistakes in the first place.  No one ever bothers to tot up how many of Schumacher, Senna or Prost's wins were 'inherited' it seems to be lore in some places that just about each one was flag to flag with fastest lap.

 

Strangely, Jean Alesi, with only one, 'inherited', Grand Prix win always seems immune to the same criticism from these people? (I have no axe to grind regarding him before anyone thinks so)

 

Johnny was a great racer and put a smile on many faces.

[essjay]

I think it should also be noted that at the Brazilian GP in 1989, his F1 debut, Johnny finished fourth, two places ahead of Benetton teammate Nannini.  He had to adapt his driving style to the track as he was still suffering from his injuries.  This was just seven months after his accident which nearly resulted in amputation!

[GF100]

Interesting thread OP.

 

This is one of the intriguing issues with motor sport in general but in the fish bowl that is F1 is accentuated even more-so. I truly believe (in very general terms) that there is very, very little difference in driving ability in the F1 drivers pool, in any given generation. Some seem to adapt quicker/better than others but all those that make it to F1 on merit (rather than pure dollars) have little separation in terms of speed and ability. Hakkinen and Herbert, Senna and Brundle, Schumacher and Frentzen. Near identical speed and skill but vastly different careers. (Mind you Brundle is a mighty fine commentator  )

 

That one or two move on to become stand-out drivers of their era is intriguing  One small incident, a particular race or dice, one qualifying lap can lead on and set them apart and put them in a different league in terms of results at least. How that works and why it is so cannot often be fully explained. At least by me. For this reason I admire the ability and skill of nearly every one that 'succeeds' in F1..... and by that don't mean just the champions. To fully appreciate their deeds one has to truly look beyond the stats.

Edited by GF100, 17 September 2015 - 12:12.

[PlatenGlass]

Herbert generally had a very impressive F1 career until meeting Schumacher. This included walking into the Ligier for one race in 1994 and outqualifying and finishing ahead of Panis, before moving to Benetton. I don't think his poor results at Benetton are a true reflection on him as a driver. Schumacher's team-mates generally weren't given a real chance. Herbert's career seemed to suffer after that, and he never looked as impressive post-Benetton as pre-Benetton. Some people say that he was a talented driver who never made it because of his leg injuries. But I'm not sure that's accurate. He was doing perfectly well until he went to Benetton. If there's one thing that ruined his career, then I'd say it was his move to Benetton.

[FerrariV12]

Some people say that he was a talented driver who never made it because of his leg injuries. But I'm not sure that's accurate. He was doing perfectly well until he went to Benetton. If there's one thing that ruined his career, then I'd say it was his move to Benetton.

 

I guess the thinking - and I agree this is heading into "what if" territory and all that entails, but if he doesn't have his accident. His results for Benetton in 1989 are probably even more impressive and lack the mid season fitness-related slump, with the possibility of winning races with them as Nannini and Piquet would do, and he doesn't join Benetton at the end of '94, because he's already there, and established as team leader. What happens to Schumacher in that alternate reality I'm not going to bother speculating about, but it really could have been different for Herbert I feel. Even if in reality there was no residual left over effects on his raw pace by 1993/94, his career did lose a fair bit of momentum when he got dropped midway through 1989.

Edited by FerrariV12, 17 September 2015 - 15:42.

[HP]

I think it should also be noted that at the Brazilian GP in 1989, his F1 debut, Johnny finished fourth, two places ahead of Benetton teammate Nannini.  He had to adapt his driving style to the track as he was still suffering from his injuries.  This was just seven months after his accident which nearly resulted in amputation!

Unless people have experienced themselves or close relatives or friends to recover from injuries it's hard to grasp the greatness of such achievements.

[Michael Ferner]

For one reason or another, I will always remember how Johnny Herbert lapped Mika Häkkinen in the closing stages of the South African GP, with no apparent excuses for the Finn. Probably because it surprised me no end. I always rated Häkkinen higher, but on his day Herbert could drive the wheels off any car. A shame only, that he had too many "off days", or perhaps ill luck. I don't buy the story about his injuries wrecking a great career, maybe they wrecked 1989 but not much else. Some drivers rise to the occasion, some don't. All the Herberts, Boutsens, Watsons and Bonniers have no one to "blame" but themselves.

[essjay]

For one reason or another, I will always remember how Johnny Herbert lapped Mika Häkkinen in the closing stages of the South African GP, with no apparent excuses for the Finn. Probably because it surprised me no end. I always rated Häkkinen higher, but on his day Herbert could drive the wheels off any car. A shame only, that he had too many "off days", or perhaps ill luck. I don't buy the story about his injuries wrecking a great career, maybe they wrecked 1989 but not much else. Some drivers rise to the occasion, some don't. All the Herberts, Boutsens, Watsons and Bonniers have no one to "blame" but themselves.

I think you have underestimated the extent of his injuries.  For years after his accident he still had dirt/grass/grit coming out through blisters in his skin on his legs, which would make him very ill. And he talked only a few years ago of how much pain he is still in - over 20 years later!  

[Michael Ferner]

I don't doubt that for a second, but that's not what I mean. Ask Mick Doohan about the aftermath of his 1992 (was it?) injuries, yet he still dominated for years.

[essjay]

You're talking apples and oranges - a spiral fracture and infection vs crushed ankle and foot bones - adapted bike vs standard car.  I don't think you can really compare the two.

[Michael Ferner]

Well, then take Niki Lauda if you must. Surely he was worse off than Herbert, yet he still won world championships, didn't he?

[AJCee]

Michael, with the depest respect are you effectively saying that all serious injuries are the same?  Medically, physiologically, that is simply not the case and you must know that.  Mick Doohan's injuries were different to Herbert's, which were different to Schumacher's, different to Graham Hill's to name but three.  The human body simply does not always recover to 100%.  There are different extents of muscle and nerve regrowth, the later being especially important for reaction speed, the former for the pressure the person can exert, even alignment of the bones can change.  Injuries as serious as Herbert's take longer than 12 months to heal at the very quickest, his feet and lower legs were mangled horribly.  You only had to watch him walk for years after to know that.

 

People have different views on his driving ability and potential, which is fair enough, but please don't underestimate what he went through.

 

All wood floats, but not all that floats is wood.

Edited by AJCee, 17 September 2015 - 19:04.

[Michael Ferner]

Michael, with the depest respect are you effectively saying that all serious injuries are the same?  (...) please don't underestimate what he went through.

I'm not, and I don't. Read again da capo.

Sorry, but I don't know anybody who's had the exact same injuries that Johnny suffered; I don't read medical bulletins like a doctor does. But I've seen Johnny Herbert walk, and I don't think that Mick Doohan could've kept up with him, even before his additional '99 injuries. And it doesn't really matter. I just happen to think that it's a lame "excuse", and one that Herbert himself has never used as far as I know. All I'm saying is that those who think that he didn't reach his full potential because of his accident are wrong, and you won't convince me otherwise.

[JacnGille]

F1's loss was sportscars gain. I felt lucky to get to watch Johnny pedal the Audi R8 in the former IMSA series. He was a hoot to talk with. He spent some time looking at my 1976 Autocourse that I use to collect autographs. He was thankful for the photos I gave him of his wild ride at the Road Atlanta Dip.

[chunder27]

I think to be honest Johnny never fitted the later Benetton team waswell as he did earlier.

 

the car was totally designed, built and engineered towards Schumacher and Johnny drove in a very different way,a s did Verstappena dn Lehto who also got nowhere despite similarly good early careers.

 

He was goo everywhere else and also good at developing cars, his pace in the Lotus Lambo caught eyes, he was decent in most cars he drove apart from his later years at Jaguar where the older style of driving seemed to not work so well as Hill, Villenueve etc found out.

 

As an earlier poster said I think he was perhaps OUR Schumacher, he could have dominated F1, but those injuries I think hampered him somewhat, similarly to Brundle in some ways.

[chunder27]

And Doohan's injuries were very different agreed. 

 

Motorcycle racers carry very ,many injuries most of their career and when Mick crahsed in 92 he already carried a few from his first year in 89 when he crashed a lot. The leg was nearly lost in 92, and was sewn to the other to feed it, but the breaks were all eventually sorted.

 

What Mick lost was ankle movement, his ankle was effectively welded together. He had numerous operations over the years to try and improve this and I think one final batch of operations on retirement to bring back some of the movement that was not necessary for racing bikes.

 

His injury list from Jerez in 99 was horrific!  He broke a lot of bones that day.  And these guys like motocrossers are very rqarely 100% fit like car racers invariably are.

[kayemod]

Well, then take Niki Lauda if you must. Surely he was worse off than Herbert, yet he still won world championships, didn't he?

 

OK, take Niki. Horrific injuries, but not many broken bones, and in absolutely no way comparable with Johnny Herbert's, not even remotely. I'm not going to go through my own medical history here, but I met Johnny a few years ago at Goodwood, we chatted for a while, or at least as far as anyone can chat to such a scatterbrain about badly broken legs, an experience we share. In many ways my injuries were similar to his, in some respects even worse, we were both told that we could lose one or both legs. And we still suffer similar problems, but I've been fortunate in making a much better recovery in most respects, I winced when he told me what he still goes through today, his troubles made him move to Spain, Barry Sheene of course went to Australia to ease their suffering. Every injury, every person, every recovery is completely different, it just isn't possible to make some of the comparisons that are being made here, especially when assessing someone's career, and that's all I'm going to say here.

[chunder27]

I think it is silly to compare injuries among drivers, and also rather disrespectful to both men.

 

Niki nearly died, if you actually read his book the thigs he went through would have seen off a awful lot of people!

 

Johnny's situiation was very different, I guess you coudl compare his situaiton to Mick Doohan's!

 

All of them came back to win races and be a sort of step ahead in most peoples eyes from what they cam from.

 

The sad situations are people like Wayne Rainey, Clay Regazzoni, Alex Zanardi who are lucky to be alive but horrible physically scarred!