62 replies to this topic

[Lord Snooty]

Actual influence on the cars electronics and computers or TV myth?

What do you think as there were some unusual glitches from some cars...

[Marklar]

It was discussed prior the race. The teams said they prevent themselves from that, but obviously not really

[PayasYouRace]

Very plausible. Arcing high voltage creates strong electromagnetic fields, and sometimes it only takes a single bit in an ECU to be switched from a 0 to a 1 to screw up some software.

[Jordan44]

The number of gearbox failures we see here is surprising.

http://www.grandprix...s-in-singapore/ was published yesterday, seems to suggest the engineers think it's plausible.

Edited by J0rd4n, 20 September 2015 - 14:54.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Did it happen in the early years to one of the Red Bulls?

[Jordan44]

Did it happen in the early years to one of the Red Bulls?

http://m.autosport.c...rt.php/id/71054

[Jimisgod]

I think it's great. Like the 21st century equivalent of when hot 80s street circuits would give us freak podiums.

[Marklar]

Just read that the risk was this year higher because with the new Layout over the Anderson Bridge the cars are now directly over the metro line.

Edited by Marklar, 20 September 2015 - 15:26.

[PayasYouRace]

The problems seemed to be happening at the section where the track goes under the grandstand.

[Jordan44]

Just read that the risk was this year higher because with the new Layout over the Anderson Bridge the cars are now directly over the metro line.

That clip of Alonso going under the bridge and the sudden switch to neutral says it all for me. It's no coincidence.

Martin said on board it looked like a total failure inside the gearbox but if we're talking electrical current running through a magnetic field, could the force imposed damage the inside of it? I wouldn't expect the effect it has to be consistent for every car because they all have different gearboxes, and some of the chassis may shield from the field a little bit than others. Plus I'd assume the positioning of the car relative to the field would make a big difference.

Edited by J0rd4n, 20 September 2015 - 15:29.

[RottenAli]

Working at Lotus Cars quite a few years ago we had an owner who lived very close to Fylingdales (high power radar and intercontinental ballistic missile tracking station) and these radio emissions affected the engine management systems because the non metallic GRP was not causing a type of Faraday cage to protect against these waves like a steel body of a normal road car would. Consequently the engine management system failed and caused an engine wiring loom and fuel system fire. To cure the future issues we provided extra earthed shielding around all the ECU's. Carbon Fibre tubs and bodywork are no different to standard GRP. Extra shielding really needs to be added when F1 cars are raced near to high power electromagnetic emission areas.

Edited by RottenAli, 20 September 2015 - 15:40.

[Scotracer]

EMC.

[Sheepmachine]

It's all about the ley lines ;)

(People in chat will know what I'm talking about.)

[SCHUEYFAN]

I firmly believe the buried high voltage cable for the metro lines were directly responsible for Hamilton's car failure!!!!!   We must stop the madness and demand they cancel the Singapore race before anyone else suffers the same fate!!

 

http://i.ytimg.com/v...xresdefault.jpg

Edited by SCHUEYFAN, 20 September 2015 - 16:34.

[Risil]

We don't have to cancel the Singapore race, just demand they tear up their subway lines.

[F1matt]

Working at Lotus Cars quite a few years ago we had an owner who lived very close to Fylingdales (high power radar and intercontinental ballistic missile tracking station) and these radio emissions affected the engine management systems because the non metallic GRP was not causing a type of Faraday cage to protect against these waves like a steel body of a normal road car would. Consequently the engine management system failed and caused an engine wiring loom and fuel system fire. To cure the future issues we provided extra earthed shielding around all the ECU's. Carbon Fibre tubs and bodywork are no different to standard GRP. Extra shielding really needs to be added when F1 cars are raced near to high power electromagnetic emission areas.

I had a similar issue a few years ago going past Fylingdales, having a blast out over the moors the car cut out, had to call the AA who towed the car a few miles which then started first time. AA patrolman told us it happens regularly.

[tmekt]

An idea for a fearless team a couple of months ahead the Austin GP: borrow some Mexican drug lord's smuggling tunnel and place a big magnet under a preferred team's cars on the grid. 

[SCHUEYFAN]

Awesome idea tmekt, I bemoan how Ferrari has played Mr.Nice guy ever since Todt left so hopefully they pick up on your idea and commence work immediately.

[windy1603]

Years ago when WSB was at Donnington Dukes (888's i think)  and other bikes ECU where affected by air traffic radar at east midlands airport, making them miss-fire and run erratically 

[Scotracer]

Do they have EMC requirements in the tech regs? We spend millions on it when developing road cars...

[Imperial]

I personally don't buy it.

The Webber incident was merely a suspicion, never proven. To my knowledge, none of the teams affected by problems today have sought to claim they may have been affected by the rail system below.

You're not spending F1 money to genuinely believe that has forced your driver out of a race or compromised his finish position and to not demand action be taken.

The Webber incident was never proven, thus remaining a theory.

Snopes would definitely classify this myth as:

• FALSE

[Jordan44]

I personally don't buy it.

The Webber incident was merely a suspicion, never proven. To my knowledge, none of the teams affected by problems today have sought to claim they may have been affected by the rail system below.

You're not spending F1 money to genuinely believe that has forced your driver out of a race or compromised his finish position and to not demand action be taken.

The Webber incident was never proven, thus remaining a theory.

Snopes would definitely classify this myth as:

• FALSE

 

I find it hard to believe it'a coincidence we've seen so many gearbox glitches here, Paddy Lowe and other engineers saw interference on the data yesterday, and those gearbox all have a pattern of jumping into neutral.

[Imperial]

Perhaps a by-product of racing in a city (Monaco isn't really), it could be something else or an accumulation of different things.

But to think an F1 car is criss-crossing a train 20/30 feet below the surface with the exact timimg for it to create a problem...and on more than car in one race (as David Croft suggested)? Nah.

The team bosses would be raising hell tonight about it and the fact is they aren't.

It would be the only thing in F1 they don't complain about!

[jjcale]

I personally don't buy it.

The Webber incident was merely a suspicion, never proven. To my knowledge, none of the teams affected by problems today have sought to claim they may have been affected by the rail system below.

You're not spending F1 money to genuinely believe that has forced your driver out of a race or compromised his finish position and to not demand action be taken.

The Webber incident was never proven, thus remaining a theory.

Snopes would definitely classify this myth as:

• FALSE

So there is definitely something to it then...

[PayasYouRace]

Perhaps a by-product of racing in a city (Monaco isn't really), it could be something else or an accumulation of different things.

But to think an F1 car is criss-crossing a train 20/30 feet below the surface with the exact timimg for it to create a problem...and on more than car in one race (as David Croft suggested)? Nah.

The team bosses would be raising hell tonight about it and the fact is they aren't.

It would be the only thing in F1 they don't complain about!

 

It's not particularly far fetched. If there's a point on the metro's line where the live rail is arcing, then it could be enough to screw up a bit in the car's ECU, which would be enough to cause an error. Timing doesn't have to be exact. Trains are long enough to provide a window of opportunity for it to happen and while I'm not sure about Singapore's metro, I'm sure trains are fairly frequent.

 

That the team bosses aren't complaining is only evidence that they don't have any definite answer. It's unlikely they'll get to shut down any metro lines.

[BRG]

London (not to mention Paris and many other cities) has many miles of subway lines directly under major roads.  There has never been a single case AFAIK or any problem with road vehicles ECUs.  So I vote for BS.

[jimjimjeroo]

Who knows. ... it could just be put down to random component failure

[Imperial]

Here is the answer:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/120916

Passing trains causing it eh? Dear me...

[SCHUEYFAN]

Imperial, don't spoil the fun with facts and logic please, I was thoroughly amused with the Hamilton fanboy excuses, you've taken the piss out of the conspiracy theorists so you must now deal with the consequences with this fellow...

 

 

http://i.ytimg.com/v...xresdefault.jpg

[PayasYouRace]

Here is the answer:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/120916

Passing trains causing it eh? Dear me...

 

Obviously we were talking about the cars having gear selection problems, which is a software issue.

[ensign14]

We don't have to cancel the Singapore race, just demand they tear up their subway lines.

 

Race through the subway lines.  Win-win.

[Imperial]

Alonso on Sky Sports (to Natalie Pinkham): "It's overheating of the gearbox, that caused some failure in the gearbox on both cars, I think we had the same problem.

Massa also suggesting his Williams had a gearbox problem backed up by Brundle too suggesting the same. Brundle also wisely pointing out that Carlos Sainz said it's the same problem as he had back in China.

I think that's every driver who had issues today covered now.

Any of you X-Files fans still seriously thinking a train is doing this?

Blimey, I thought the Indycar threads were funny...

[PayasYouRace]

OK OK. It's not exactly far fetched though.

[Jordan44]

OK OK. It's not exactly far fetched though.

If taking a mobile phone on a plane is enough to scare aviation experts, a unique magnetic field generated by a subway system isn't exactly out of the question.

[PayasYouRace]

If taking a mobile phone on a plane is enough to scare aviation experts, a unique magnetic field generated by a subway system isn't exactly out of the question.

 

The mobile phones on planes thing is just in case they interfere with navigation and communications equipment really. That's why nowadays you're allowed to use your phone in flight safe mode even on take off and landing.

[Jordan44]

The mobile phones on planes thing is just in case they interfere with navigation and communications equipment really. That's why nowadays you're allowed to use your phone in flight safe mode even on take off and landing.

Exactly, same concept though.

Edited by J0rd4n, 20 September 2015 - 20:36.

[PayasYouRace]

Exactly, same concept though.

 

Your mobile phone doesn't arc at 750 volts though.

[Jordan44]

Your mobile phone doesn't arc at 750 volts though.

Yes. Which is why my first comment makes sense. Let's be honest a mobile phone does nothing. But if it's enough to irk the professionals then a 750V subway system is up for consideration.

[Jordan44]

Translation of an article on AMuS:

It was jinxed in Singapore. Employed sparked some technical problems driver into the pits. It started Rosberg before the start. On the way to the establishment of the Mercedes engine died off 3 times. "I had to change my start-up procedure. That was completely different than normal," complained the pilot. The sister car of Lewis Hamilton caught it in the race. A clamp on the hose connection between airbox and Intercooler dissolved. The Boost failed. The world champion was forced to retire.

The McLaren overheated gearbox. Zero points. When Toro Rosso of Max Verstappen went at the start of the engine. "Normally, that prevents from the anti-stall system," complained Franz Tost. "This must not happen." With team-mate Carlos Sainz, the transmission without warning switched to idle. "We also need to investigate yet. Maybe Carlos after the pit stop also just a wrong button."

Even with the transmission Massa jumped again from the transition. The threat of transmission failure was also reported with Romain Grosjean as the reason for the withdrawal. This defect cluster is unusual. Some suspected interference of metro line as evildoers. A line runs directly under the track. 2008 Red Bull driver Mark Webber of the Metro thwarted.

Engineers can actually measure in some places the track irregularities in the electrically controlled hydraulic valves of the gear, which can be explained only by the subway. But actually the disorder under control. More likely for the margins are therefore the high loads: bumps, heat, humidity, many curves and most shifts per lap.

So they have more shifts per lap than anywhere else here, didn't know that. Would be a perfectly good explanation along with the bumps as to why gearboxes don't like it here.

Edited by J0rd4n, 20 September 2015 - 21:27.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I have a vague memory of a story in Autosport circa 1992, the height of the rapid computerisation of the cars, of a theory that somebody could/was looking in to using electromagnetic interference to target the more advanced cars.

[275 GTB-4]

I heard that one local supermarket completely sold out all their tin foil

[Afterburner]

Well, if I recall correctly the first time we heard about this it had nothing to do with the car jumping into neutral--Red Bull said Webber's car had in fact attempted to select two gears simultaneously as he shifted while going over the tunnel and a train was supposedly passing through.

I don't think Red Bull was lying, but I also don't believe that the underground caused all the gearbox failures we saw this weekend.

[MaxScelerate]

Yes. Which is why my first comment makes sense. Let's be honest a mobile phone does nothing. But if it's enough to irk the professionals then a 750V subway system is up for consideration.

Yeah, it's not like millions of metro users world-wide ever tested these things by running laptops, tablets, cellphones, iPods and other electro-sensitive equipment sitting just a meter or so from the live rails, did they? Oh, right, they did today. And yesterday. And the day before. And ...

[mtknot]

This track is extreme in terms of the number of upshifts and downshifts - from the top of my head it has the most of any track?

With the added heat and humidity, its not hard to see how gearboxes would fail more regularly.

With that said, it hasn't really happened in previous years.

[asdf24]

So none of the electrical engineers though of giving their cars' sensitive electronics shielding??? Are they a bunch of amateurs? Or the lead designers/system engineers thought there's no merit in adding unneeded mass to the car?

[Gyno]

So what was the deal with everyone messing up the pitstops?

Almost every team had problems with 1 wheel during their stops.

 

As for the technical problems.

I was thinking some one hacked into the cars computers.

Cant be to difficult to do that these days

[asdf24]

[275 GTB-4]

Don't care what power level they are using for the signature testing...don't think I'd care to sit on either one of those two seats provided in that array in the foreground

[BRK]

I did think something was up when multiple cars reported identical -or at least similar- issues. Webber's Red Bull had problems at the Valencia street track, a few years ago.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah, it's not like millions of metro users world-wide ever tested these things by running laptops, tablets, cellphones, iPods and other electro-sensitive equipment sitting just a meter or so from the live rails, did they? Oh, right, they did today. And yesterday. And the day before. And ...

 

And none of those have ever had a program or app crash for apparently no reason? That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. It's not that the field is frying the electronics. It's likely that it's just switching a bit at an inopportune time and making the software crash. An arc from the metro lines could cause that.

 

So none of the electrical engineers though of giving their cars' sensitive electronics shielding??? Are they a bunch of amateurs? Or the lead designers/system engineers thought there's no merit in adding unneeded mass to the car?

 

I'm sure they do and I'm sure they way up the balance of how much shielding is needed.