4002 replies to this topic

[FullThrottleF1]

https://translate.go...k Rio Haryanto)

[Marklar]

Vandoorne gets no cockpit, but Haryanto. Without being disrespectfull it shows how f*** up this system is

[lustigson]

Is that even legal?

 

Why not? There's supply (a seat/car) and demand (a driver and his sponsor). 

 

Vandoorne gets no cockpit, but Haryanto. Without being disrespectfull it shows how f*** up this system is

 

McLaren could've shelled out a bit more to have Vandoorne in the Manor. Or they could've dropped Button to make room.

 

Plus: Vandoorne will eventually be there, but for Rio it may be his only chance.

[noikeee]

Is that even legal?

Are you asking whether we have any specialists in the Indonesian legal system in here?

[Jimisgod]

Is that even legal?

 

If Maldonado could do it with more cash from a more corrupt government, I don't see why this would be illegal.

 

Pertamina, the oil company of Indonesia, is state owned like PDVSA anyway.

[Jonnycraig37]

Vandoorne gets no cockpit, but Haryanto. Without being disrespectfull it shows how f*** up this system is

No it doesn't. Vandoorne is looking to for a paid drive, rather than paying to drive.

Your anger should be aimed at McLaren paying £30m a year to Alonso & Button to drive around at the back of the grid, sacking Magnusson by email on his birthday and making Vandoorne sit and watch next year.

Paying a 34 year old & a 35 year old ex world champions a fortune to string out the last few miles of their careers, whilst damaging two top youngsters careers is a far bigger issue than another pay driver being on the grid.

[Marklar]

No it doesn't. Vandoorne is looking to for a paid drive, rather than paying to drive.

Your anger should be aimed at McLaren paying £30m a year to Alonso & Button to drive around at the back of the grid, sacking Magnusson by email on his birthday and making Vandoorne sit and watch next year.

Paying a 34 year old & a 35 year old ex world champions a fortune to string out the last few miles of their careers, whilst damaging two top youngsters careers is a far bigger issue than another pay driver being on the grid.

ffs Im not angry on Haryanto or Manor. Im angry on this system that small teams have no other choice than to give the cockpit always the guy who is bidding the most.

[Anja]

Along with Stevens, Haryanto is the least impressive new driver since Chilton. Even Gutierrez and Ericsson were better in lower series and they're widely considered a waste of a seat. It's getting worse and worse.

[Kev00]

Magnussen, Vandoorne, Frinjs, Rowland, Ocon, Evans. More talented than the likes of haryanto, Stevens, Chilton, Ericsson, Palmer, van der Garde, Maldonado, Gutierrez. But unfortunately more and more teams are taking pay drivers. I guess Ocon and Vandoorne are the lucky ones as they are at least affiliated to a top team, but it is hard for Mercedes and McLaren to justify spending €10-15m to put one of their young guns in a backmarker team. The standard is getting worse and worse.

[Jonnycraig37]

ffs Im not angry on Haryanto or Manor. Im angry on this system that small teams have no other choice than to give the cockpit always the guy who is bidding the most.

It's been that way since the dawn of F1.

[Marklar]

It's been that way since the dawn of F1.

No it isnt. We always had paydriver in F1. But in the past whenever a outstanding young driver appeared he immediately found a cockpit regardless if he had more money than the other guy. Nowadays you can be even the next big thing but unless you have money or RB support you wont get a cockpit.

[Fisico54]

No it isnt. We always had paydriver in F1. But in the past whenever a outstanding young driver appeared he immediately found a cockpit regardless if he had more money than the other guy. Nowadays you can be even the next big thing but unless you have money or RB support you wont get a cockpit.

That's complete nonsense, star prospects have always missed out - Wirdheim,,Jorg Muller just to pick out f3000 champions or never got a proper chance like Mike Thackwell

[Fisico54]

No it isnt. We always had paydriver in F1. But in the past whenever a outstanding young driver appeared he immediately found a cockpit regardless if he had more money than the other guy. Nowadays you can be even the next big thing but unless you have money or RB support you wont get a cockpit.

That's complete nonsense, star prospects have always missed out - Wirdheim,,Jorg Muller just to pick out f3000 champions or never got a proper chance like Mike Thackwell

[Jon83]

That's complete nonsense, star prospects have always missed out - Wirdheim,,Jorg Muller just to pick out f3000 champions or never got a proper chance like Mike Thackwell

 

How is it nonsense?

 

Most of these outstanding young drivers (Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso) have had an F1 seat at a pretty young age. I'd say the absolute top talents usually got in.

 

It is an absolute travesty that a driver as good as Stoffel Vandoorne isn't going to be on the grid next season whilst rubbish like Maldonado will get another year where he can destroy countless front wings.

[Jonnycraig37]

No it isnt. We always had paydriver in F1. But in the past whenever a outstanding young driver appeared he immediately found a cockpit regardless if he had more money than the other guy. Nowadays you can be even the next big thing but unless you have money or RB support you wont get a cockpit.

Like Bianchi who got a seat because Razia couldn't pay? Or Frijns who never got a seat? Or Ricciardo who had to have an HRT seat bought for him? Or Hartley who never got an F1 seat? Or Aleshin who won FR3.5 and never got a seat?

Alonso had a seat bought for him at Minardi. Vettel had a seat bought for him at Williams before he got into the RB, McLaren funded basically a second alternate seasons worth of F1 car running for Hamilton in 2006.

In previous generations, Senna bought his way onto the grid, Schumacher bought his way into the grid, going back further Lauda bought his way onto the grid.

Who exactly are these outstanding youngsters that you remember getting onto the grid without funding?

We can all agree that Vandoorne should be on the grid in a McLaren ahead of Button or Alonso but that's an issue to take up with McLaren. You can also question why Vandoorne decided to turn down a seat at Toro Rosso....

Edited by Jonnycraig37, 11 December 2015 - 16:43.

[Starchild]

Plus: Vandoorne will eventually be there, but for Rio it may be his only chance.

hm, no.  I don't know where you can see Vandoorne getting that f1 seat... As things stands right now most probable thing is he will never make it to F1 unfortunately.

In 2016. and 2017. two seats at mclaren are occupied. So, he can maybe get the seat as early as 2018. But if mclaren is going to be competitive after that rule changes in 2017., both Button and Alonso would probably be happy to stay for another year. What is he going to do for next 3 years? And he will be 27 years old by then...

His only chance is if mclaren honda makes B team (which is unlikely), or that he cut ties with mclaren immediately and switch to williams or renault to replace massa or palmer/maldonado in 2017. (which is also unlikely)

So, chances are very slim for him. He is basically Frijns v2.

Those 2 are the victims of this ridiculous state f1 is in right now. Probably two greatest talents in last few years, but If you are not red bull junior or you don't have big amonut of cash, you are not going to make it to f1 no matter how good you are.

Edited by Starchild, 11 December 2015 - 17:15.

[Kev00]

Like Bianchi who got a seat because Razia couldn't pay? Or Frijns who never got a seat? Or Ricciardo who had to have an HRT seat bought for him? Or Hartley who never got an F1 seat? Or Aleshin who won FR3.5 and never got a seat?

Alonso had a seat bought for him at Minardi. Vettel had a seat bought for him at Williams before he got into the RB, McLaren funded basically a second alternate seasons worth of F1 car running for Hamilton in 2006.

In previous generations, Senna bought his way onto the grid, Schumacher bought his way into the grid, going back further Lauda bought his way onto the grid.

Who exactly are these outstanding youngsters that you remember getting onto the grid without funding?

We can all agree that Vandoorne should be on the grid in a McLaren ahead of Button or Alonso but that's an issue to take up with McLaren. You can also question why Vandoorne decided to turn down a seat at Toro Rosso....

I think Frinjs is counted as the current generation. Aleshin and Hartley? Aleshin has won one fr3.5 title in about 7 years in that series, and Hartley was simply not as good as any of the other red bull juniors (Buemi, Algesuari, Vergne and Ricciardo). The outstanding drivers of that generation made it.

[noikeee]

Does Button and Alonso both have a contract for 2017?

[Prost1997T]

I think Frinjs is counted as the current generation. Aleshin and Hartley? Aleshin has won one fr3.5 title in about 7 years in that series, and Hartley was simply not as good as any of the other red bull juniors (Buemi, Algesuari, Vergne and Ricciardo). The outstanding drivers of that generation made it.

 

4 years, not 7 (he won the title in 2010). Hartley was an FR Eurocup champion, hardly a hack - in fact, he's currently a Porsche factory driver in LMP1.

Edited by Prost1997T, 11 December 2015 - 18:12.

[Jonnycraig37]

hm, no. I don't know where you can see Vandoorne getting that f1 seat... As things stands right now most probable thing is he will never make it to F1 unfortunately.

Don't be silly. He will be in the grid in 2017.

[statman]

Along with Stevens, Haryanto is the least impressive new driver since Chilton. Even Gutierrez and Ericsson were better in lower series and they're widely considered a waste of a seat. It's getting worse and worse.

Indeed, very depressing. But that's what you get with these cash-strapped teams. Same thing with Lotus, they should have been booted from F1. If you can't pay for anything, you don't belong in the sport.

[Viryfan]

Don't be silly. He will be in the grid in 2017.

 

Not sure to be honest.

 

I mean a guy like Tom Kristensen never got his chance to go into F1.

 

Despite being double F3 champ, runner up in Japanese F3000.....

 

Same might go for Ocon and Vandoorne but it doesn't keep them from a great racing career.

Edited by Viryfan, 11 December 2015 - 18:34.

[Jonnycraig37]

If McLaren won't put Vandoorne into their car in 2017, plenty of the other teams will take him. He's just pulled off the most dominant year in GP2 history. He will be just fine.

[Kev00]

4 years, not 7 (he won the title in 2010). Hartley was an FR Eurocup champion, hardly a hack - in fact, he's currently a Porsche factory driver in LMP1.

I am not saying Hartley was a hack. I am saying he was not as good as the other red bulls. He had 3 years in fr3.5 and didn't win a race. Vergne and Ricciardo went to that series and were way more successful than him in a shorter period.
Aleshin raced in fr3.5 in 06,07,08,10,12 and 13. So six seasons, he had 103 races( according to wiki) and won 4 of them. Yes he was a champion but possibly the worst in series history.

[Starchild]

If McLaren won't put Vandoorne into their car in 2017, plenty of the other teams will take him.

Yes, just like when teams were fighting to get Frijns. Oh, wait.

 

He's just pulled off the most dominant year in GP2 history. He will be just fine.

That doesn't mean much these days. Frijns also won Formula BMW, Formula 2.0 and Formula 3.5 back to back and has one of the most impressive CVs in single-seaters ever and where is he now? Driving in Blancpain series and in uncompetitive last year's car in Formula E...

[KWSN - DSM]

Tom Christensen said no thanks to a paid half season in Minardi as far as I know, not finding it a secure bet for a F1 career. The closed Franchise of F1 is a big problem, there is a set finite number of teams, the cost is out of control, only way teams can even partly cover the bills are having someone pay. If the choice is Haryanto with Usd 15 million or Magnussen with zero, 'unfair' as that may be, does not make sense for Manor to do anything other than taking the money and the driver who goes with it.

 

Saxo Bank prominent on the sidepods of Lotus is a Danish Bank, I would like to know how much they actually pay for that, and why they rather back Marco Soerensen than Magnussen. There have been talk of how Danish companies are not backing Magnussen, and they have traditionally been very poor at sponsoring drivers. They usual shortsightedness somehow cloud, a driver all of Denmark is talking about and following and one no one except for us more deep into the sport fans even know exist, and the Bank backs the unknown.

 

I am not giant of capitalism, but it does not seem as a true 'bang for you buck' option Saxo Bank have taken. They may actually have dumped Soerensen, he did slide out of GP2.

 

[DutchQuicksilver]

Does Button and Alonso both have a contract for 2017?

Don't think so, so this Vandoorne never getting into F1 is ridiculous. He'll drive a McLaren in 2017, no doubt about that.

[Kev00]

Don't think so, so this Vandoorne never getting into F1 is ridiculous. He'll drive a McLaren in 2017, no doubt about that.

Hope you are right but why exactly is he not in a mclaren now?

[Marklar]

Alonso has a contract for 2017, Button has apparentely agreed to be willing to continue also in 2017 if the car is competitive next year. Question is just if the ball is again on Buttons side as this year or if McLaren will decide like last year...

[Jonnycraig37]

Yes, just like when teams were fighting to get Frijns. Oh, wait.

That doesn't mean much these days. Frijns also won Formula BMW, Formula 2.0 and Formula 3.5 back to back and has one of the most impressive CVs in single-seaters ever and where is he now? Driving in Blancpain series and in uncompetitive last year's car in Formula E...

Eh? Red Bull wanted Frijns, he turned them down. That's nobody's fault but his own.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Hope you are right but why exactly is he not in a mclaren now?

Because Button decided not to retire I think and they probable still want two experienced boys to develop the car/engine.

[Rurouni]

The letter from the Indonesian government is real. I don't know why someone ask about the legality of this... Is it the legality of the fact that Indonesian government sponsored Haryanto? Basically Haryanto will be sponsored by state owned enterprises (which include Pertamina) and not using state funding, thus it's perfectly legal. As for the minister itself giving guarantee, I suppose it's okay since he is the minister of youth and sports.
So unless the other candidates can bring more money of a better deal (full payment upfront?) then Haryanto will get the seat. We need to wait at least until monday to know whether this Haryanto deal will go through or not. Personally I don't like it since Haryanto isn't really good, thus to keep him in F1 the government need to constantly pouring money without the result to show it. I'm hoping that Haryanto could prove me wrong and justify the funding that is given all this years to him. Otherwise, I hope that the Indonesian government will evaluate his performance and willing to cut the funding based on Haryanto performance.

Although pay driver is there since the old times, but with the current climate, more teams are willing to sell its seats. Of course my reference is only since Schumacher era, thus there might be a situation in the older season where there was a lot of pay driver. Right now we have at least 3 teams that hire a pair of pay driver (Sauber, Lotus, and Manor), so that is 6 seats not available for someone without a deep pocket. 2 seats are booked for Red Bull junior drivers (STR) which makes it even harder for someone to enter F1.
The fact that someone that shows enormous talent like Vandoorne can't get a seat and must wait for one of the former WDC to retire is ridiculous. Ridiculous not only because Vandoorne can't get a seat but also ridiculous in expecting one of the former WDC to retire when their performance are still very good.

[bulbabubble]

Vandoorne absolutely talented and we hate the system since he doesn't have seat in 2016 like we don't know that he turned down Toro Roso to choose McLaren Role
McLaren didn't release Alonso and Button instead of giving vandoorne chance..
We maybe forgot that Manor was collapse team last year and don't know what they need is Money to keep race in 2016
McLaren didn't want to pay Manor seat for Vandoorne or Merc cant afford it for Wehrlein..

as simple as that

[Starchild]

Eh? Red Bull wanted Frijns, he turned them down. That's nobody's fault but his own.

I don't know anymore what is true and what's not regarding that. I know it was all over the media that Frijns and Vandoorne turned down Red Bull's offer but according to Helmut Marko they've never offered them anything.

http://www.f1today.n...s-en-vandoorne/

translation:

Helmut Marko (interview from 2013): "I've never spoken to Mr. Vandoorne. I do not even know what he looks like. There has been no offer, ask him yourself! You also have the crazy Dutchman (Frijns), who claims he has turned down an offer from us. We've never offered him anything. It bothers me greatly to hear what they say. "

[Fisico54]

I don't know anymore what is true and what's not regarding that. I know it was all over the media that Frijns and Vandoorne turned down Red Bull's offer but according to Helmut Marko they've never offered them anything.
http://www.f1today.n...s-en-vandoorne/
translation:
Helmut Marko (interview from 2013): "I've never spoken to Mr. Vandoorne. I do not even know what he looks like. There has been no offer, ask him yourself! You also have the crazy Dutchman (Frijns), who claims he has turned down an offer from us. We've never offered him anything. It bothers me greatly to hear what they say. "

If what Marko says I'd true then it's no surprise Frijns never got a shot.

[bulbabubble]

I don't know anymore what is true and what's not regarding that. I know it was all over the media that Frijns and Vandoorne turned down Red Bull's offer but according to Helmut Marko they've never offered them anything.
http://www.f1today.n...s-en-vandoorne/
translation:
Helmut Marko (interview from 2013): "I've never spoken to Mr. Vandoorne. I do not even know what he looks like. There has been no offer, ask him yourself! You also have the crazy Dutchman (Frijns), who claims he has turned down an offer from us. We've never offered him anything. It bothers me greatly to hear what they say. "

"In September, the team actually contacted me," Vandoorne explained to Belgian newspaper Le Soir. "With Daniel Ricciardo replacing Mark Webber at Red Bull, they are looking for a new driver at Toro Rosso."

Well I guessed Vandoorne just hallucinated about it then..
m.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/301991/vandoorne-toro-rosso-contacted-me/

[Kev00]

I don't know anymore what is true and what's not regarding that. I know it was all over the media that Frijns and Vandoorne turned down Red Bull's offer but according to Helmut Marko they've never offered them anything.
http://www.f1today.n...s-en-vandoorne/
translation:
Helmut Marko (interview from 2013): "I've never spoken to Mr. Vandoorne. I do not even know what he looks like. There has been no offer, ask him yourself! You also have the crazy Dutchman (Frijns), who claims he has turned down an offer from us. We've never offered him anything. It bothers me greatly to hear what they say. "

Well I don't really believe that quote tbh. He surely saw Kvyat being beat by Vandoorne in 2012 and da Costa being beat by him in 2013. And I don't see why quotes would be attributed to Vandoorne if they were not true.

[Jonnycraig37]

Perhaps the most pertinent point is that if the Honda engine is still uncompetitive next season, one if not both of the McLaren drivers will retire, letting Vandoorne in.

If the Honda engine is highly competitive, other teams will want it for 2017, likely letting Vandoorne in.

[Starchild]

"In September, the team actually contacted me," Vandoorne explained to Belgian newspaper Le Soir. "With Daniel Ricciardo replacing Mark Webber at Red Bull, they are looking for a new driver at Toro Rosso."

Well I guessed Vandoorne just hallucinated about it then..
m.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/301991/vandoorne-toro-rosso-contacted-me/

 

Well I don't really believe that quote tbh. He surely saw Kvyat being beat by Vandoorne in 2012 and da Costa being beat by him in 2013. And I don't see why quotes would be attributed to Vandoorne if they were not true.

 

You never know what's true and what's only made up by (mostly local) media.

That interview where Frijns apparently said that he rejected red bull (famous quote: 'RB treats you like a dog') is totaly made up story by some dutch journalist, he never said anything like that.

 

From interview with Frijns in 2014:

Q: In the past something you allegedly said about Red Bull Racing caused a lot of commotion. The media surely were all over it. Do you think that incident harmed your career or do you think the whole thing was blown out of proportion?

Frijns: The latter, for sure. The story that was published contained quotes that were not mine, things I had never said and I was not happy with it at all. It is unfortunate that there are always people who want to take you down by writing things you never said. The journalist who wrote it even was a Dutch guy!?! I was glad to hear that Helmut Marko from Red Bull confirmed the story was completely false.

http://www.embraceex...w-robin-frijns/

 

So, what's also interseting is the last sentence. Marko's quote seems genuine, as Frijns is refering to it. Red Bull possibly never even contacted Frijns and Vandoorne...

[Starchild]

Perhaps the most pertinent point is that if the Honda engine is still uncompetitive next season, one if not both of the McLaren drivers will retire, letting Vandoorne in.

If the Honda engine is highly competitive, other teams will want it for 2017, likely letting Vandoorne in.

 

Don't think so, so this Vandoorne never getting into F1 is ridiculous. He'll drive a McLaren in 2017, no doubt about that.

 

I have no doubt about that he will not drive Mclaren in 2016.

Both Alonso and Button (and mclaren) are not expecting some big improvements next year, but in 2017. They are all eyeing 2017. as a big year for them, so why would ALO or BUT left just before that. It doesn't make sense for me.

http://www.skysports...8/jenson-button

 

Another thing is that Vandoorne will drive next year in Super Formula. He is unfamiliar with all tracks, unfamiliar with the car. All drivers much more experienced than him. many drivers on their 5-10 season in the series. And on top of that he will drive honda powered car which is totally inferior to toyota. In 2014. top 8 drivers were in toyota powered cars, in 2015. top 4.

He will finish at best somewhere mid table....

[TurnOffTheLights]

On German TV (Stars & Cars Mercedes promotion event) Pascal Wehrlein just answered a question about his future,

"There are still ongoing talks. It could be Formula 1 with Manor Marussia, but it's not sure yet. If it's not working out with Formula 1 next year, I'm very very happy to drive DTM again."

[BRG]

 

He will finish at best somewhere mid table....

They say that you are only as good as your last race.  A poor season in Super Formula and he could be history, as has happened to others in the past.

[Marklar]

On German TV (Stars & Cars Mercedes promotion event) Pascal Wehrlein just answered a question about his future,

"There are still ongoing talks. It could be Formula 1 with Manor Marussia, but it's not sure yet. If it's not working out with Formula 1 next year, I'm very very happy to drive DTM again."

Well, he has certainly a good CV now after he beat the 3 times world champion today

 

(ok, just because Lewis slept on the start, but anyways)

 

Edit: and Juncadella is faster than Rosberg, maybe F1 should also consider him

Edited by Marklar, 12 December 2015 - 18:45.

[Viryfan]

On German TV (Stars & Cars Mercedes promotion event) Pascal Wehrlein just answered a question about his future,

"There are still ongoing talks. It could be Formula 1 with Manor Marussia, but it's not sure yet. If it's not working out with Formula 1 next year, I'm very very happy to drive DTM again."

 

The arrival of Haryanto in the picture might be the best news for Pascal if he actually comes with 15 million €.

 

If they did expect 10 million € per seat the pressure to get money for the other seat will decrease.

 

Even if 5 million € is too big for Merc, they can put 3 million € + some financial tricks in order to make Manor save money (better dates for engine payment installments)....

 

It might drag on until mid january then Mercedes will announce its 2016 DTM line-up.

[SophieB]

Re: Pascal Wehrlein:
 

We [Mercedes and Manor] are still having conversations," said Wolff.
"But I understand there are commercial constraints Manor is facing, that there is this financial reality, so you can't force it.
"Staying in DTM is Option B, and if it is only Option B then we will make sure he continues to learn in and around a Formula 1 car as well.
"I would rather see him move on into Formula 1 because I think he deserves that, and if not then he will have the opportunity to defend his DTM title."
 
Asked if Wehrlein's situation would be resolved before Christmas, Wolff replied: "It's going to stretch over into the new year."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/122231

[Viryfan]

Re: Pascal Wehrlein:
 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/122231

 

 

Wonder what is Ocon plan B , if Pascal goes to plan B.

[Marklar]

I guess GP2

[Marklar]

Wolff also said to the German sport information agency (SID) that Manor would demand way too much money. He also said that they will make a decision within 4-5 weeks because until then they want to announce their DTM drivers line-up

[DutchQuicksilver]

Why doesn't Manor want Wehrlein or Ocon? Surely they are better options than Stevens and Rossi, which looks most likely as their lineup for 2016. I guess it's all about money then? The Mercedes discount not weighing up to Stevens and Rossi's money?

[Viryfan]

I guess GP2

 

 

If i was Wolff in the case Pascal would be staying put in DTM  , i would send Ocon to Formula 3.5 V8 at Fortec given the ties between both parties.

 

It would be a cheap alternative keeping doors open for the future.