624 replies to this topic

[CurbPainter]

This is something you keep pushing as well. 'Let him crash into them'..!!! It's a bit of a silly supposition. And nothing to do with team orders, or this thread.

 

Have you forgotten this...

 

 

 

It's based on drivers who don't want to be seen as pushovers, which has everything to do with this topic.

Edited by CurbPainter, 23 September 2015 - 21:36.

[Tony Mandara]

LEGAL team orders, sir. Legal. Causing a collision is also not legal.

DTM is not F1.

[CurbPainter]

LEGAL team orders, sir. Legal. Causing a collision is also not legal.

DTM is not F1.

 

I was talking about drivers not letting themselves getting pushed out of the track, but your mind has made from that drivers going to drive into other drivers...I was merely talking about drivers who won't let themselves be pushed over any more by not avoiding the contact and holding their ground rightfully.

[Tony Mandara]

Whaa..? You do remember posting this?

Have you forgotten this...





It's based on drivers who don't want to be seen as pushovers, which has everything to do with this topic.

Neither of these drivers are in F1, the series is not F1 and this incident is in no way connected to the drivers being discussed..And cetainly not illegal orders.
If you can't, or don't want to reply to any points I've made, you don't have to.
But Please.Stop.Going.Off.Topic.

Edited by Tony Mandara, 23 September 2015 - 22:47.

[CurbPainter]

Whaa..? You do remember posting this?

Neither of these drivers are in F1, the series is not F1 and this incident is in no way connected to the drivers being discussed..And cetainly not illegal orders.
If you can't reply to any points I've made, you don't have to.
But Please.Stop.Going.Off.Topic.

 

Calm down, the DTM clip was just a joke, only the last sentence was serious.

 

Yes, and part of the whole situation is not wanting to come over as a pushover. But as far as I'm concerned the discussion has covered all the angles (with thrown in some side stuff).   

Edited by CurbPainter, 23 September 2015 - 22:48.

[Tony Mandara]

No driver wants to come across as a 'pushover' OR a 'lackey '.
As I stated twice before, I don't think either driver was entirely right OR wrong in this matter. And neither deserves to be ridiculed or belittled for it. However STR have managed to make a complete c**k-up of this. And it is not their first c**k-up this year!

[CurbPainter]

No driver wants to come across as a 'pushover' OR a 'lackey '.
As I stated twice before, I don't think either driver was entirely right OR wrong in this matter. And neither deserves to be ridiculed or belittled for it. However STR have managed to make a complete c**k-up of this. And it is not their first c**k-up this year!

 

We seem to totally agree this was just one big screw up of the team (the order never should have been given), and all three parties have been damaged by it to a degree.

 

The team should have protected their drivers by saying, after the initial request by Carlos, "we don't favour drivers if the team doesn't benefit it by it (and they should have known this wasn't beneficial to the team)." But I stick to cause of the problem laying in the Hungary pit stop and the overreaction afterwards to that (but that action was actual beneficial to the team).

Edited by CurbPainter, 23 September 2015 - 23:19.

[Tony Mandara]

Well.. that could be a first! Hold on , I'll pop open a bottle of bubbly!

Could be that their expectations of the performance increase on newer tires was negated by the track rubbering in more and performance on lower fuel levelling off instead of increasing. At one point they obviously believed different. However I'm not privy to their data. But what is clear is that their communication leaves a lot to be desired! Including Tost's post race comments.

Edited by Tony Mandara, 23 September 2015 - 23:33.

[CurbPainter]

While it has some influence (track rubbering and lower fuel), Max being a bit easier on the tyres as Carlos would have offset the difference in tyre conditions after 20 laps. And the team should know that being the case, hence the whole tyres being in better conditions wasn't in play.

 

So it would have been nothing more as favouring Carlos for no apparent reason (the best chance of overtaking would still have been at the end when Perez his tyres would have been worn out the most). But even if Carlos wouldn't have made it, he still would have left the impression being the better driver (because you leave your "better" driver having a go at it). But seeing how hard Max worked his ass off to get back into the points, it wasn't a very good moment (very disrespectful towards your driver who just has worked very hard to get you some points)

 

That's why I can't understand the team agreeing with it (well I can, after all the fuzz which has been made after the Hungary pit stop call, the team might have felt morally obligated to try and do something in return (only wrong moment to do it)). The problem comes from Carlos asking it because he looked to be overshadow again by Max (which he was, but he was still making a good impression by being right behind Max at the end of the race after encountering his own set of problems, only he pushed it too far by asking if he could have a go it, and by so damaged himself also in the end (the team should have protected him by just saying no)).

 

What has come to bite Carlos in the ass is, by making way too much fuzz about the Hungary pit stop, the team felt morally obligated to do sometime back so they went along with it, but at the same time weren't considering the feelings of Max after such a race...Carlos asks for such a thing to try and give the impression him being better. Carlos will be much better off to refrain himself from such shenanigans as I have said before, because they come and bite you in the ass in the end.

 

Edit : If the Italian rumour is true, Ferrari wanting Ricciardo for '17 as part of an A-grade engine deal, Carlos really doesn't do himself any favours in his battle with Kvyat about a seat in Red Bull with these kinds of actions.

Edited by CurbPainter, 24 September 2015 - 00:43.

[Cloxxki]

And what's all this talk of Carlos' (!!) entourage pressuring the team for team orders? I've only seen it mentioned (albeit 5 or 6 times now) by one poster.

Any proof? At all? I mean.. come on. Supposition is not fact. Please don't present it as such!

I'd like the credits for this unfounded rumor. Trying to find explanations for Carlos's expressions and actions, and the responses by the team. Somehow there does seem hype or pressure affecting dynamics inside that team. 

Was Carlos too busy pushing Grosjean off (luckily where no wall was present) to know (care) whether he was on or off the track? 

[Tony Mandara]

F1 teams make decisions based on data, not emotions. Carlos, to my knowledge has made no mention of Hungary since his post race comments in Budapest. However you continually make reference to it, using it as a weapon in a quest to prove that he has some sort of 'underhand' agenda, namely to make his team mate look bad in order to put himself in a better light. And you really should just let that drop. Simply put, you don't know what he is thinking and therefore cannot tell anyone else the same. Continually pressing opinions as fact will not encourage others to agree, but quite the opposite, as you've seen.
One fact that can be drawn from this mess is that at some point in the race STR's data (not media or other outside influence) was telling them that it would be better to have them swap positions. Tost all but confirmed this in his comments which you can hear ("we thought we could swap positions") if you are not listening only for "Max was right" and "Carlos was too slow"
I personally don't get the 'four tenths' thing as it can't mean 'per lap' because then Carlos would have been a lot further behind over the final stint that he in fact was. Whereas constant four tenths behind puts you in an optimal passing position. They both had a tire advantage as could be seen from how they were cutting through the field. Could it be that Carlos was holding back at that time and made the request so as not to risk having them both off in the tussle and resulting in no points for anyone? Who knows! None of us really. But to make constant character attacks and dismissals ("he'll be a good Nr2 driver" and even "I'm fed up with being nice about him" halfway through the first page of the versus thread!) does paint someone in a bad light... and it's not HIM!
Let's just enjoy the 'on track- battle for what it is, eh? Jos' fans made themselves unpopular (and by association made Jos unpopular too) with rudeness and arrogance. I think Max deserves better than that, don't you?

One small point. It's fuss not fuzz. Fuzz is what you have on your face when you are a boy of 11 and haven't started shaving yet!

Edited by Tony Mandara, 24 September 2015 - 01:39.

[Tony Mandara]

I'd like the credits for this unfounded rumor. Trying to find explanations for Carlos's expressions and actions, and the responses by the team. Somehow there does seem hype or pressure affecting dynamics inside that team.

Was Carlos too busy pushing Grosjean off (luckily where no wall was present) to know (care) whether he was on or off the track?

Then I suggest you read my post above.

And well done for adding the vitrious barb there, which has no relevance to you tenuous point! (Unfounded rumour, as you so rightly point out!)

Edited by Tony Mandara, 24 September 2015 - 02:26.

[CurbPainter]

F1 teams make decisions based on data, not emotions. Carlos, to my knowledge has made no mention of Hungary since his post race comments in Budapest. However you continually make reference to it, using it as a weapon in a quest to prove that he has some sort of 'underhand' agenda, namely to make his team mate look bad in order to put himself in a better light. And you really should just let that drop. Simply put, you don't know what he is thinking and therefore cannot tell anyone else the same. Continually pressing opinions as fact will not encourage others to agree, but quite the opposite, as you've seen.

 

If you don't care to know what I think is going on, you can just ignore it.

 

However I base my assumptions on a pattern of behaviour I have seen him doing (constantly trying to present himself better as he is). I don't write everything I have seen him doing here on this forum...but you might not want to discard stuff too quickly...or you just do, I don't write for everyone, only for the ones who are interested.  

Edited by CurbPainter, 24 September 2015 - 03:16.

[Wes350]

...Not after today. Top teams value loyalty above all, and they know their cars are good enough for a decent driver to win so no primadonnas need apply. Why would Mercedes or Ferrari hire unreliable, disobedient and selfish driver that humiliates them in-front of millions. 

 

 

Well, Ferrari did just that when they signed Sebastian 'Multi 21' Vettel.

 

 

 

A year and a bit ago:

 

 

Spoilt brat, that guy who doesn't let him past. 

 

 

What an arrogant little ****

 

 

After re-watching the race again today I must confess...

 

I'm now a believer that Max Verstappen is a future WDC.

 

It should be obvious to anyone who has watched him race this season, that he has a gift behind the wheel of a race car.

 

I now believe he also has just the right streak of bastardry in him to go straight to the top.

 

I am officially a fan.

 

Go Verstappen, Go...

Edited by Wes350, 24 September 2015 - 04:24.

[lars75]

F1 teams make decisions based on data, not emotions. Carlos, to my knowledge has made no mention of Hungary since his post race comments in Budapest. However you continually make reference to it, using it as a weapon in a quest to prove that he has some sort of 'underhand' agenda, namely to make his team mate look bad in order to put himself in a better light. And you really should just let that drop. Simply put, you don't know what he is thinking and therefore cannot tell anyone else the same. Continually pressing opinions as fact will not encourage others to agree, but quite the opposite, as you've seen.
One fact that can be drawn from this mess is that at some point in the race STR's data (not media or other outside influence) was telling them that it would be better to have them swap positions. Tost all but confirmed this in his comments which you can hear ("we thought we could swap positions") if you are not listening only for "Max was right" and "Carlos was too slow"
I personally don't get the 'four tenths' thing as it can't mean 'per lap' because then Carlos would have been a lot further behind over the final stint that he in fact was. Whereas constant four tenths behind puts you in an optimal passing position. They both had a tire advantage as could be seen from how they were cutting through the field. Could it be that Carlos was holding back at that time and made the request so as not to risk having them both off in the tussle and resulting in no points for anyone? Who knows! None of us really. But to make constant character attacks and dismissals ("he'll be a good Nr2 driver" and even "I'm fed up with being nice about him" halfway through the first page of the versus thread!) does paint someone in a bad light... and it's not HIM!
Let's just enjoy the 'on track- battle for what it is, eh? Jos' fans made themselves unpopular (and by association made Jos unpopular too) with rudeness and arrogance. I think Max deserves better than that, don't you?

One small point. It's fuss not fuzz. Fuzz is what you have on your face when you are a boy of 11 and haven't started shaving yet!

 

Well based on data it would be the biggest crap either!

 

Because Verstappen was faster all the race (he even led most rounds this race between the both of them after starting 1,5 lap down!) and at that very moment was faster as well passing Maldonado, Grosjean and closing the gap to Perez. The only point where Sainz was faster, was the moment that Verstappen got stuck behind Perez. And I don't even have all the data the team has but still saw it!

 

It was a slap in the face for Verstappen and direspectfull to his hard work to get back to P8 in every manor.

[SenorSjon]

About the tires... they still were widely of Q pace, so tire life shouldn't be a problem for either of them in the closing laps.

[lars75]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After re-watching the race again today I must confess...

 

I'm now a believer that Max Verstappen is a future WDC.

 

It should be obvious to anyone who has watched him race this season, that he has a gift behind the wheel of a race car.

 

I now believe he also has just the right streak of bastardry in him to go straight to the top.

 

I am officially a fan.

 

Go Verstappen, Go...

 

 

I treully belief his has the potential to do so. But at first he has to get a car that could give him his first, podium, after that his first victory and than maybe a WDC, not even mention multiple! Yes has has the talent, he has time on his hands but all of that is no garantee 

[Requiem84]

I think if Verstappen really wanted to demonstrate his badass-ness, he should have let Sainz passed....

 

...

...

...

..

 

Only to repass him by a clean overtake a lap after 

[Auzz]

I've been lurking around these forums for quite some time, but this thread made me finally sign up.

 

Sadly it's getting downhill for quite some pages because it isn't about facts anymore, but mainly about assumptions and some of these are getting nasty too. Some of the VES fans are not doing him any favours here. Imho it's not his age, his driving, his dad or whatever reasons there are to invoke some strong reactions about Max. It's you sirs. Please look in the mirror. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree, instead of keep discussing the same point over and over again like you're preaching a religion. Please just accept there are different point of views and really, thats ok!  Just relax.

 

On topic:  I think it was a very stupid call to make. Especially the timing was very bad. The sad part is, it made everyone involved loose. It made Max look someone who can't obey. The damage control Franz tried at the end, made the problem even worse. It made Carlos look weak and that he can't control his drivers anymore. The only thing he should have said:  We'll discuss it behind closed doors.

 

Sorry for any grammar errors, since Dutch is my native language.

[Jon83]

Finally some common sense

[CurbPainter]

I've been lurking around these forums for quite some time, but this thread made me finally sign up.

 

Sadly it's getting downhill for quite some pages because it isn't about facts anymore, but mainly about assumptions and some of these are getting nasty too. Some of the VES fans are not doing him any favours here. Imho it's not his age, his driving, his dad or whatever reasons there are to invoke some strong reactions about Max. It's you sirs. Please look in the mirror. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree, instead of keep discussing the same point over and over again like you're preaching a religion. Please just accept there are different point of views and really, thats ok!  Just relax.

 

On topic:  I think it was a very stupid call to make. Especially the timing was very bad. The sad part is, it made everyone involved loose. It made Max look someone who can't obey. The damage control Franz tried at the end, made the problem even worse. It made Carlos look weak and that he can't control his drivers anymore. The only thing he should have said:  We'll discuss it behind closed doors.

 

Sorry for any grammar errors, since Dutch is my native language.

 

...however it's a fact Carlos has been trying to present himself better as he is, many examples can be found of that...only problem is, don't say things like that because some aren't liking it.

 

People should read what Carlos actual says and compare that with reality...the actual downhill starts when everyone starts to shut up because you say thing which some don't like...trust me, they don't want you to say anything else as some primal expressions of emotions, and the rest is forbidden...most aren't on a forum to learn new insights, but only to vent frustrations...and it's always difficult having discussions with people who have a total lack of knowledge regarding matters.

 

People should look into Carlos his after qualifying remarks Hungary and Monaco, his remarks about how many points he has lost (also in Hungary) and compare that with with his race pace...but since no one does that, please don't say things like Carlos is trying to make things rosier as they are...and there you have it, when you say how such things come about, most are absolutely clueless because lack of any knowledge and think they are only baseless assumptions.

Edited by CurbPainter, 24 September 2015 - 08:45.

[Arundo]

Sadly it's getting downhill for quite some pages because it isn't about facts anymore, but mainly about assumptions and some of these are getting nasty too. Some of the VES fans are not doing him any favours here. Imho it's not his age, his driving, his dad or whatever reasons there are to invoke some strong reactions about Max. It's you sirs. Please look in the mirror. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree, instead of keep discussing the same point over and over again like you're preaching a religion. Please just accept there are different point of views and really, thats ok!  Just relax.

 

Ah yes the typical dutch response to arguements these days, lets bend over and take it for the good of pleasing everybody. Thats why we have idiots in our country who with a handful have destroyed one of our long standing traditions.   

 

The Max "gekkies" are just as fierce as the other side with the Max "haters" as long as it is a normal discussion I would say let them have a go. 

Edited by Arundo, 24 September 2015 - 08:48.

[CurbPainter]

Ah yes the typical dutch response to arguements these days, lets bend over and take it for the good of pleasing everybody. Thats why we have idiots in our country who with a handful have destroyed one of our long standing traditions.   

 

...and the irony of it all, they praise Max for not doing it, but when others are showing the same spirit...don't do it !

[Auzz]

...however it's a fact Carlos has been trying to present himself better as he is, many examples can be found of that...only problem is, don't say things like that because some aren't liking it.

 

People should read what Carlos actual says and compare that with reality...the actual downhill starts when everyone starts to shut up because you say thing which some don't like...trust me, they don't want you to say anything else as some primal expressions of emotions, and the rest is forbidden...most aren't on a forum to learn new insights, but only to vent frustrations...and it's always difficult having discussions with people who have a total lack of knowledge regarding matters.

 

People should look into Carlos his after qualifying remarks Hungary and Monaco, his remarks about how many points he has lost (also in Hungary) and compare that with with his race pace...but since no one does that, please don't say things like Carlos is trying to make things rosier as they are...and there you have it, when you say how such things come about, most are absolutely clueless because lack of any knowledge and think they are only baseless assumptions.

Sorry Curbpainter. How much I've enjoyed your posts, you just proved my point.

[SophieB]

Despite the earnest please for people to stick to talking about the specific incident, this thread has instead continued to go off-topic in quite unpleasant ways. I am going to close this and review it.

 

In the meantime, please do continue to report or PM  the moderators if you have thoughts about it all. I am working from the assumption that most people on this board want to see respect and tolerance displayed to both drivers and it seems to me, that's lacking in discussions of these drivers way too often.