116 replies to this topic

[Ricardo F1]

Well done Pirelli for a fantastic weekend of tyre management.  

 

Do not understand the Hulkenberg penalty in the slightest.  

[RubalSher]

Well done Pirelli for a fantastic weekend of tyre management.  

 

Do not understand the Hulkenberg penalty in the slightest.  

 

Neither did I.

[superden]

Neither did I, a poor decision penalising Hulkenburg and letting Massa sidestep any blame whatsoever.

[Topsu]

How was it not clearly Hulk's fault? Massa couldn't go any tighter.

[superden]

As an aside, this incident highlighted how sh*t the pit exit design is in Singapore.

[RubalSher]

Neither did I, a poor decision penalising Hulkenburg and letting Massa sidestep any blame whatsoever.

 

If Hulkenberg had been toppled over like Gutierez was at Bahrain last year by Maldonado in a near similar incident, I wonder if Massa would have been penalized instead.

[RubalSher]

How was it not clearly Hulk's fault? Massa couldn't go any tighter.

 

Neither could Maldonado at Bahrain last year.

[asdf24]

Do not understand the Hulkenberg penalty in the slightest.  

 

I'm in the other end of the spectrum.

[PayasYouRace]

Hulkenberg's penalty is pretty ridiculous. Clearly just a racing incident.

[HeadFirst]

Hulkenberg's penalty is pretty ridiculous. Clearly just a racing incident.

 

Not sure I would call it a racing incident. It is the responsibility of the driver leaving the pits to do so in a safe manner. Massa clearly didn't.

[Marklar]

Not sure I would call it a racing incident. It is the responsibility of the driver leaving the pits to do so in a safe manner. Massa clearly didn't.

Massa stayed in his line. Hulkenberg turned in his direction. It was a bit more Hulkenbergs fault, but a penalty was too much imo.

[Crossmax]

I too would call it a race incident, but apparently, that word does no longer exist in the FIA vocabulary. If anyone is to take blame though, it's got to be Nico. He admitted to knowing that Massa was there, and I think he just miscalculated how far up alongside Massa managed to get. Massa was entitled to a car's width on the apex.  

[PayasYouRace]

Not sure I would call it a racing incident. It is the responsibility of the driver leaving the pits to do so in a safe manner. Massa clearly didn't.

 

Once you're past the exit line you're on the track as normal. They were side by side and both went for the same bit of track. Happens all the time.

[Disgrace]

What a waste of time.

[Nonesuch]

Not sure I would call it a racing incident. It is the responsibility of the driver leaving the pits to do so in a safe manner. Massa clearly didn't.

 

Massa had already left the pitlane when he collided with Hülkenberg. After leaving the pitlane he approached the following turn side-by-side, as has happened countless times at this and other circuits.

 

Hülkenberg left Massa no other option than to brake, and unlike the Toro Rosso rookies and their 'run him off the road' antics, Hülkenberg found himself on the outside during such a move and paid the price for it.

 

It was a move that could have easily damaged Massa's car, and thus an additional penalty is understandable - even if it seems a bit overzealous given Massa's car turned out just fine.

Edited by Nonesuch, 20 September 2015 - 21:20.

[Lord Snooty]

Massa had already left the pitlane when he collided with Hülkenberg. After leaving the pitlane he approached the following turn side-by-side, as has happened countless times at this and other circuits.

 

Hülkenberg left Massa no other option than to brake, and unlike the Toro Rosso rookies and their 'run him off the road' antics, Hülkenberg found himself on the outside during such a move and paid the price for it.

 

It was a move that could have easily damaged Massa's car, and thus an additional penalty is understandable - even if it seems a bit overzealous given Massa's car turned out just fine.

 

 

Well, except Massa's car didn't turn out fine in that he picked up a slow puncture and had to pit within a couple of laps and then had to retire with gearbox gremlins that could well have been a result of being shunted by Nico.

 

That said, grid penalties sound a bit OTT but the stewards have more data and video than me so who knows.

[Nemo1965]

Massa had already left the pitlane when he collided with Hülkenberg. After leaving the pitlane he approached the following turn side-by-side, as has happened countless times at this and other circuits.

 

Hülkenberg left Massa no other option than to brake, and unlike the Toro Rosso rookies and their 'run him off the road' antics, Hülkenberg found himself on the outside during such a move and paid the price for it.

 

It was a move that could have easily damaged Massa's car, and thus an additional penalty is understandable - even if it seems a bit overzealous given Massa's car turned out just fine.

 

Eh?

 

In Indycar, on ovals, the rule is that when you leave the pits, you should slot in behind the car that is passing you on the track. AFAIK, that rule does not exist in F1. So Massa was under no obligation to brake. He had no room to go anywhere... while Hülkenberg could have avoided the incident. So it was his fault. If it needed a penalty, that is debatable. But your post seems to indicate that he did something safer than the Toro Rosso-boys... who did not crash into anyone, remember...

[MikeV1987]

Honestly, I highly rate Hulk's wheel to wheel racing skills but he should have gave Massa more room there. At no point was Massa less than half way along side Hulk, he had every right to be there and go for that position just like any other racing driver would do.

 

GIF

Edited by MikeV1987, 20 September 2015 - 21:36.

[PlatenGlass]

I think overall I'd say it was more Hulkenburg's fault, but it was largely a racing incident.

But I think the grid penalty is harsh regardless. If he hadn't retired (but received damage and been in last place), he would have just got a time penalty in the same race, so the punishment is always harsher for someone who retires. I think they should just let "natural justice" take it's course and only apply penalties in the race where the infraction took place. So if you retire, that's the end of it. Unless of course something is so serious it warrants a multiple race ban or something.

[Lights]

They were racing for position, Hulkenberg did not leave room. Spot on penalty, for once well done stewards. 

[Nonesuch]

So Massa was under no obligation to brake. He had no room to go anywhere... while Hülkenberg could have avoided the incident. So it was his fault. If it needed a penalty, that is debatable. But your post seems to indicate that he did something safer than the Toro Rosso-boys... who did not crash into anyone, remember...

 

I agree; Massa did not have to brake (to avoid a collision, he obviously had to for the corner) - but not doing so would lead to a collision unless Hülkenberg suddenly changed course.

 

Hülkenberg should have known better than to attempt this sharp turn-in. The similarly forceful Toro Rosso drivers at least left their targets room on the outside.

Edited by Nonesuch, 20 September 2015 - 21:36.

[Marklar]

I'm saying it this way: replace the name Hulkenberg with Maldonado and we wouldnt discuss it.

[nosecone]

Isn't the DNF enough penalty for Hulkenberg?

[warp]

Eh?

 

In Indycar, on ovals, the rule is that when you leave the pits, you should slot in behind the car that is passing you on the track. AFAIK, that rule does not exist in F1. So Massa was under no obligation to brake. He had no room to go anywhere... while Hülkenberg could have avoided the incident. So it was his fault. If it needed a penalty, that is debatable. But your post seems to indicate that he did something safer than the Toro Rosso-boys... who did not crash into anyone, remember...

 

I'm of this opinion too... Hulk's "fault" but a racing incident really.

 

The penalty is over the top. Only thing I can think of is that it was given due to be related to a pit exit incident, but even then they were out of the pit exit white lines.

[Marklar]

Isn't the DNF enough penalty for Hulkenberg?

Besides that it wasnt for me a penalty worth, I'm always arguing in exactly this way: if drivers are crashing that the damage they suffered is enough of an punish, but so far nobody cares....

Edited by Marklar, 20 September 2015 - 21:39.

[PlatenGlass]

I think Hermann Tilke probably deserves a penalty for this one. Track design largely to blame.

[MikeV1987]

He shouldn't get away with it without a penalty tbh, he gave the squeeze and ruined both his and Massa's race. Penalty earned.

 

I don't like the pit exit much either (from my f1 game experience ), but I imagine it's designed that way to see more overtaking. At least it's not a typical exit on a straight or fast corner.

Edited by MikeV1987, 20 September 2015 - 21:46.

[Spillage]

Hulkenberg's fault, and a rare error from him. He said he saw Massa exiting the pits and didn't expect him to be alongside him at Turn 1. It was a misjudgement, basically.

 

As to whether or not he ought to have been penalised, I don't think so. I accept that the FIA ought to be coming down hard on stupid driving, but it's not like Hulkenberg is habitually reckless - this is the first seriously dumb mistake I can remember him making.

[Myrvold]

I accept that the FIA ought to be coming down hard on stupid driving, but it's not like Hulkenberg is habitually reckless - this is the first seriously dumb mistake I can remember him making.

He caused a collision, that Massa lost out on. Doesn't really matter if it's the first, or the 10th time it happens.

[EthanM]

Hulk's fault, but grid penalty was probably excessive. On the other these types of accidents can potentially turn very nasty so I can maybe (just) see a reason for them being very heavy handed

[HeadFirst]

Massa stayed in his line. Hulkenberg turned in his direction. It was a bit more Hulkenbergs fault, but a penalty was too much imo.

 

He (Massa) was leaving the pits, it was not his line.

[rpn453]

Racing incident.  No further action required.

[charly0418]

By the way how the heck did the Williams of Massa was able to continue?! Those Williams cars are tough!

[asdf24]

https://youtu.be/91JoW4mSiZo?t=22s

[asdf24]

He (Massa) was leaving the pits, it was not his line.

There were 2 lines, one for Massa, the other one for Hulk. Hulk was greedy in taking two lines.

[asdf24]

I think they should just let "natural justice" take it's course and only apply penalties in the race where the infraction took place. So if you retire, that's the end of it. Unless of course something is so serious it warrants a multiple race ban or something.

 

Like a GP with 10 laps to go having a 20th place #2 driver who has no chance to score a point hitting a rival championship contender, at the last race of the season.

[v@sh]

He (Massa) was leaving the pits, it was not his line.

 

Did you expect Massa to disappear at the apex of the corner when Massa was alongside? Who says there is only one line you can take a corner?

 

Hulk's fault from his own misjudgement. He saw Massa coming out and thought he was far enough ahead that Massa would have to concede the corner but Massa was alongside. Hulk should have given more room rather than turn in at the apex.

 

If anything if Hulk gave more room there was no reason Hulk could have passed him around the outside anyway, he already had the speed momentum from the first corner while Massa would have had to take a tighter line and therefore less apex speed.

[anbeck]

What happened to the "same  height" rule of thumb? I always though that if you are not up to the same height, you have to yield the corner. Massa clearly hit Hulk's car in the cockpit area, so he was half a car behind. Doesn't that go into the calculations of whose fault it was?

[ensign14]

Hulkenburg took the racing line and was ahead of Massa into the corner.

 

The classic rule is that the person joining the track is the one who has to give way.  Massa simply refused to brake.

 

The penalty is the most asinine decision since Spa 2008.  Incredible that any sentient human being could possibly have blamed Hulkenburg for that incident.

[JAW97]

Doubt I'll be changing anyone's opinions but imo Massa had every right to go for the corner, Hulkenberg should have give him a car's width. 

[Marklar]

He (Massa) was leaving the pits, it was not his line.

Of course it was. The crash happened not when he exited the pit, it happened after that, how long should this "rule" apply? He stayed completely left, he couldn't do anything different.

[Nemo1965]

Hulkenburg took the racing line and was ahead of Massa into the corner.

 

The classic rule is that the person joining the track is the one who has to give way.  Massa simply refused to brake.

 

The penalty is the most asinine decision since Spa 2008.  Incredible that any sentient human being could possibly have blamed Hulkenburg for that incident.

 

1. See my post about the difference between Indy (EDIT: Oval racing) and F1. I am not aware of a classic rule in F1 about this and I can't recall ever a driver seeing in F1 either penalised and/or criticised because he came out of the pits and blocked the driver on the track coming behind him and/or took the 'right' of way.

 

2. Most asinine decision since Spa 2008? Now you are losing perspective...

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 September 2015 - 06:54.

[RubalSher]

I'm saying it this way: replace the name Hulkenberg with Maldonado and we wouldnt discuss it.

 

Replace Massa with Maldonado and we wouldnt discuss it.

[RubalSher]

Doubt I'll be changing anyone's opinions but imo Massa had every right to go for the corner, Hulkenberg should have give him a car's width. 

 

And neither did Gutierez leave any room last year for Maldonado and Maldonado gets blamed.

[ensign14]

1. See my post about the difference between Indy (EDIT: Oval racing) and F1. I am not aware of a classic rule in F1 about this and I can't recall ever a driver seeing in F1 either penalised and/or criticised because he came out of the pits and blocked the driver on the track coming behind him and/or took the 'right' of way.

 

2. Most asinine decision since Spa 2008? Now you are losing perspective...

 

Rejoining the track unsafely has been penalized many times.  To pick one example, Maldonado for punting Hamilton at the Ring in 2012.  And Article 20.2 of the sporting regs states "should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage".  As usual though the regulations are a) daft, b) contradictory and c) unclear.  Technically rule 20.2 bans pit stops.

[A3]

Not sure I would call it a racing incident. It is the responsibility of the driver leaving the pits to do so in a safe manner. Massa clearly didn't.

 

Uhm, he did leave the pits in a safe manner, look at where the white line marking the pit lane exit ends. From the moment below Massa has rejoined the track and is racing again. It's a poorly designed pit exit.

 

Edited by A3, 21 September 2015 - 07:44.

[Nemo1965]

And neither did Gutierez leave any room last year for Maldonado and Maldonado gets blamed.

 

The difference of course is that Guttierez could not see Maldonado coming out of the pits in Bahrain AFAIK and got t-boned... while Massa and Hulk were side by side and DID see each other... AFAIK, again. I don't think both cases can be compared. Not that there is any use comparing them, it is all very ad hominem.

 

EDIT: Ensign, I did not know that rule about 'not gaining advantage' when leaving the pits. I stand corrected. Though not changed in my opinion: Massa was under no obligation to brake.

 

EDIT EDIT: Actually, I think your answer is not quite on the point. Not to say: sophistry. We are not talking about safe or unsafe driving, we were discussing if there is a classic rule that whomever comes out of the pits must give 'way' as it is in oval racing. The rule you quote - still thanks, much obliged - says nothing of the sort.

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 September 2015 - 08:13.

[RubalSher]

The difference of course is that Guttierez could not see Maldonado coming out of the pits in Bahrain AFAIK and got t-boned... while Massa and Hulk were side by side and DID see each other... AFAIK, again. I don't think both cases can be compared. Not that there is any use comparing them, it is all very ad hominem.

 

 

Both cases are very similar in that the car on the racing line did not leave enough room for the guy coming out of the pits, even though they could have run wider on the corner. Massa T-boned Hulk too, only the car did not flip on its head. The argument about not being able to see a car (though I am pretty sure GUT would have seen Maldonado) has nothing to do with the rules, so let us not make up imaginary ones.

 

To me, both were racing incidents, neither deserved a penalty but the lack of consistency is what bothers me.

[Juan Kerr]

I too would call it a race incident, but apparently, that word does no longer exist in the FIA vocabulary. If anyone is to take blame though, it's got to be Nico. He admitted to knowing that Massa was there, and I think he just miscalculated how far up alongside Massa managed to get. Massa was entitled to a car's width on the apex.  

Massa is coming out of the pits and therefore has not got priority over the bit of track he is moving into over oncoming cars at racing speed but then again it's Massa isn't it, he's as dull as a brush to be fair. Hulkenberg saw him yes but he's not gonna slow down to let him on the track is he? When has anyone in F1 ever slowed down to let someone on or moved out of the way to let them on?? Massa must drive onto the track in a safe manner into a gap in the traffic. I wouldn't wanna be driving down the motorway with Felipe coming up the slip road! Whoever gave Hulkenberg that penalty hasn't got a clue, I hope it wasn't Martin Donnelly or Garry Connelly.

[PayasYouRace]

Rejoining the track unsafely has been penalized many times.  To pick one example, Maldonado for punting Hamilton at the Ring in 2012.  And Article 20.2 of the sporting regs states "should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage".  As usual though the regulations are a) daft, b) contradictory and c) unclear.  Technically rule 20.2 bans pit stops.

 

The pit lane has always been considered part of the track.