125 replies to this topic

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

This is a milestone in his career, and another statistic gathered by Vettel. His win at Singapore now places him at 42 wins, now alone in third place.

 

This is a very special achievement that should not go unnoticed.

 

Making history, one race at a time.

[Afterburner]

Probably going to degenerate into a driver thread, but yeah--Schumacher, Prost, Vettel, now. Matchett was visibly reflective about it on camera this morning, which was cool.

Next up: Hamilton; we're in a neat era in terms of driver talent. Any race now...

Edited by Afterburner, 21 September 2015 - 01:53.

[sennafan24]

Cheers for pointing this out Blinky ;)

Personally, I don't keep track of the raw stats, other than quantity of Championships.
While all the drivers who have broken records are undeniably great drivers, plenty of equally great drivers don't come close for various reasons.

I didn't know Seb had surpassed Senna's win total until I read this thread. Fair play to him.

Edited by sennafan24, 21 September 2015 - 02:08.

[Brother Fox]

It's completly meaningless.

I mean good on Vettel, he's clearly won a lot but number of races per season skew things to the point it's a nothing statistic

[josepatches]

Well to me drivers like Alonso, lewis or Seb are as great as all-time best so i like to see them between those big names.

Congrats to Vettel. Prost is next

[Afterburner]

It's completly meaningless.

I mean good on Vettel, he's clearly won a lot but number of races per season skew things to the point it's a nothing statistic

He did it in fewer starts.

Edited by Afterburner, 21 September 2015 - 02:54.

[Equinox1]

Vettel is one of those rare lucky drivers who will spend almost their entire career in great cars. So no surprise.

[Jazza]

It's completly meaningless.

I mean good on Vettel, he's clearly won a lot but number of races per season skew things to the point it's a nothing statistic

How? He has won more in less races than Senna.

[turssi]

Vettel is one of those rare lucky drivers who will spend almost their entire career in great cars. So no surprise.

Like Senna?

[Equinox1]

Like Senna?

 

Senna spent many years without great cars.

[Otaku]

Like Senna?

 

Yeah, specially the Toleman, the 3 years with Lotus, and the McLaren 92-93 were all awesome cars, the best of the grid....

 

 

 

Ontopic: different eras, impossible to compare. Now you have almost 20 races/season, so it's easier to achieve higher numbers in less time.

Edited by Otaku, 21 September 2015 - 03:05.

[turssi]

Senna spent many years without great cars.

Both have around ten seasons in the sport with six in winning teams.

[sennafan24]

Depends on how you define "great car".

The Lotus was the 3rd best car in 85 and 86, and the 2nd best in 87. The McLaren's of 1992 and 1993 were also 3rd best overall.

I would say Senna always had decent cars (apart from the Toleman), just not great cars.

[krea]

Yeah, specially the Toleman, the 3 years with Lotus, and the McLaren 92-93 were all awesome cars, the best of the grid....

 

 

 

Ontopic: different eras, impossible to compare. Now you have almost 20 races/season, so it's easier to achieve higher numbers in less time.

 

Well, Vettel archived it in less time AND less races.

 

Realibility is the real difference between today and back in the days. It wasn't uncommon just to finish ~1/2 of the races while having more than 2 technical DNFs today is already unlucky.

[Equinox1]

Both have around ten seasons in the sport with six in winning teams.

 

I don't know what your definition of 'winning teams means', but its too vague.

[SilverArrow31]

Yep. Vettel has well and truly entered hallowed ground. He will be remembered for the rest of time.

[DarthWillie]

While I agree times are different and it is difficult to do a straight comparison, it's an impressive number. It shows Vettel as one of the greats

[redraven9]

Good for him. He is still a long way to go to prove himself as a top driver for me.

[Craven Morehead]

Congrats to Seb, he has been sensational since his arrival. Much like Ayrton was. 

 

It's interesting that they both showed their class in poor cars in the rain: Senna very nearly winning Monaco (I still remember it, all these years later) in a Toleman, and Vettel winning Monza Toro Rosso.  Neither team ever really looked like a winner since. 

[rasul]

Vettel is one of those rare lucky drivers who will spend almost their entire career in great cars. So no surprise.

That applies more to Lewis than Seb. 

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

It's completly meaningless.

I mean good on Vettel, he's clearly won a lot but number of races per season skew things to the point it's a nothing statistic

 

Please do not cheapen a major accomplishment. It would be a big one for any driver to rank in the top ten in wins, regardless of era or circumstances.

[Marklar]

That applies more to Lewis than Seb.

lol. We are discussing about the 2 luckiest driver in F1 who of them is more lucky? Seriously?

Edited by Marklar, 21 September 2015 - 05:53.

[Jovanotti]

Great mark from Seb

What always astonishes me is Schumi's 91 wins though, more than double of what Vettel has now after an extremely successful 7 years in the sport. Michael reached Senna in 2000 when he'd not even driven the world beater Ferrari's of the following years. I can't see anyone of the current generation reaching that number, but clearly if somebody can, it will be Vettel.

Edited by Jovanotti, 21 September 2015 - 06:01.

[beqa16v]

Good for him. He is still a long way to go to prove himself as a top driver for me.

       

I'm not a Vettel fan BTW. Your avatar explains your frustration.

[rasul]

lol. We are discussing about the 2 luckiest driver in F1 who of them is more lucky? Seriously?

They're both quite fortunate and excellent at their career choices, but unless something happens, it looks like Lewis will be the rarest kind of driver who started and will finish his career in great cars. 

Edited by rasul, 21 September 2015 - 06:01.

[Marklar]

They're both quite fortunate and excellent at their career choices, but unless something happens, it looks like Lewis will be the rarest kind of driver who will start and finish his career in great cars.

Thats true, so far it is well balanced. Seb spend more time in dominant cars, Hamilton on the other side more time on general competitive cars.

Im always struggeling with this stats (even if my sig is proving otherwise) because many great drivers had less opportunitys to shine (most recent example Alonso), but on the other side achieving 42 victories is something seriously great. For the people who are saying that he stil has to prove that he is a great driver: no he dont, you cant achieve that what he achieved w/o beeing a great driver..

[tommi34]

Fantastic achievement even though it's easier to achieve those numbers these days because of much more reliable cars and more races per season - as people already pointed. Anyway Seb is all time great - and his RBR's were never as dominant as the Mercedes in 2014 and 2015... Well maybe 2011, but anyway for example his 2013 was just unbeliavable.

Edited by tommi34, 21 September 2015 - 06:19.

[rasul]

Thats true, so far it is well balanced. Seb spend more time in dominant cars, Hamilton on the other side more time on general competitive cars.
 

Well, it's actually pretty balanced when it comes to dominant cars too. Vettel had a dominant car in 2011 and the second half of 2013. His 2010 car was the fastest but very unreliable. He had a joint fastest car in 2012 and a competetive car in 2009. His cars in 2014 and now in 2015 were capable of race wins but only in some extraordinary circumstances(i.e when Mercedes feck up). His 2007 car was a dog, and his 2008 car was a midtable car. 

Hamilton had some truly dominant cars in 2014, 2015, and joint fastest in 2007, 2008, 2012; competetive cars in 2009, 2010. In 2013 he had a great qualifying car that was poor in the race.

 

 

Im always struggeling with this stats (even if my sig is proving otherwise) because many great drivers had less opportunitys to shine (most recent example Alonso), but on the other side achieving 42 victories is something seriously great. For the people who are saying that he stil has to prove that he is a great driver: no he dont, you cant achieve that what he achieved w/o beeing a great driver..

Agreed. 

[Igorr]

Amazing achievement!

People immediately start comparing the two. It is natural to congratulate someone for achieving something major like equaling Senna's wins, Prost's titles etc. It does not mean he is better or worse than them. Completely different eras which given the difference in the cars today being so technical compared to the raw power they had in the 80s makes it almost a different racing category. For me it is an honour to watch someone like Vettel racing and putting the type of laps he did in q3 on saturday. Same goes for Alonso and Hamilton.

[apoka]

Fantastic achievement.  I think it's especially nice that this comes in a period when he is not in a dominating team.

[LuckyStrike1]

Good for him. He is still a long way to go to prove himself as a top driver for me.

 

Yeah he is pretty mediocre. 

[Craven Morehead]

Well, Vettel archived it in less time AND less races.

 

Realibility is the real difference between today and back in the days. It wasn't uncommon just to finish ~1/2 of the races while having more than 2 technical DNFs today is already unlucky.

 

Exactly right krea.

 

While taking nothing away from Sebastian's brilliant achievement (I think he's fantastic, actually); it is worth noting that, according to Wiki, Senna started 161 Grand Prix's and retired from 50 of those (fully 31%). Vettel has started 152 and retired 21 times (14%). There's your difference. In fact Senna had already suffered 21 retirements (the same as Seb's entire career) in only his first three seasons. Pretty tough to rack up those race wins when the car is broken by the side of the track a third of the time, huh?  Another way to look at it is to say that Senna]s DNF rate is nearly two-and-a-half times that of Vettel. Really shows the difference in the eras, doesn't it?

 

So, I think if we want to have a balanced analysis, race finishes (rather than race starts) is a better place to look. Sebastian has already seen the checkered flag 20 more times than Ayrton did in his entire career.

 

Congrats to Seb, he is one of the all time greats, no doubt about it. 

Edited by Craven Morehead, 21 September 2015 - 07:14.

[Nonesuch]

 For convenience's sake, I'll repost this little list I drew up in the Singapore Race thread of where the other current drivers stand in this ranking:

 

Between all the Englishmen talking about Lewis Sennamilton we'd almost forget that Vettel passes Senna in the Most Wins table. The top five now looks like this:

• 91 wins - Michael Schumacher
• 51 wins - Alain Prost
• 42 wins - Sebastian Vettel
• 41 wins - Ayrton Senna
• 40 wins - Lewis Hamilton

The other current drivers:

• 32 wins - Fernando Alonso
• 20 wins - Kimi Räikkönen
• 15 wins - Jenson Button
• 11 wins - Felipe Massa
• 11 wins - Nico Rosberg
• 3 wins - Daniel Ricciardo
• 1 win - Pastor Maldonado

 

It's an impressive number of wins, and it also seems a bit pointless to complain about a statistic like this having to do with sitting in the best car. No kidding!

 

In the RTL coverage last weekend Vettel was interviewed about this number of wins and he was predictably excited, being somewhat of an F1 geek himself.

 

He then speculated about Prost's number, and turned a sigh into a smile when he noted Michael Schumacher's 91 wins was just one win short of Senna and Prost put together.

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 September 2015 - 07:42.

[PayasYouRace]

The way things are going he'll be fourth by the end of the season though.

[Craven Morehead]

The way things are going he'll be fourth by the end of the season though.

good point

[BRK]

Congrats to Seb! The SGP was very memorable for me, as an MS fan and SV supporter. The stat itself isn't that important, of course. 

 

I've been saying for years that the two best drivers on the grid, IMO -Vettel and Hamilton- will take home the bulk of championships and race wins between them for a decade or more. Good to see that happening.

 

Hopeful we get to witness a titanic battle between Sebastian and Lewis in 2016.  

Edited by BRK, 21 September 2015 - 07:43.

[ensign14]

This is a milestone in his career, and another statistic gathered by Vettel. His win at Singapore now places him at 42 wins, now alone in third place.

 

 

Only in terms of WC wins.  In terms of first-ranking wins (i.e. including decent non-WC races), he's behind Clark and Fangio.  Depending on what you include, they're both over 50.

[Peat]

Stats are a bit meaningless nowadays given the amount of GP's/pts per season has increased drastically over the years. 

Anyway, I'm happy Seb got there before Lewis after his "Me and Senna would of been mates." nonsense. 

[Crossmax]

Exactly right krea.

 

While taking nothing away from Sebastian's brilliant achievement (I think he's fantastic, actually); it is worth noting that, according to Wiki, Senna started 161 Grand Prix's and retired from 50 of those (fully 31%). Vettel has started 152 and retired 21 times (14%). There's your difference. In fact Senna had already suffered 21 retirements (the same as Seb's entire career) in only his first three seasons. Pretty tough to rack up those race wins when the car is broken by the side of the track a third of the time, huh?  Another way to look at it is to say that Senna]s DNF rate is nearly two-and-a-half times that of Vettel. Really shows the difference in the eras, doesn't it?

 

So, I think if we want to have a balanced analysis, race finishes (rather than race starts) is a better place to look. Sebastian has already seen the checkered flag 20 more times than Ayrton did in his entire career.

 

Congrats to Seb, he is one of the all time greats, no doubt about it. 

Unreliability works both ways though, you can luck out on others' misfortunes too. I guess in Senna's case, he would be on a net loss though.

[Rob]

It makes you wonder how many races Fangio would have won had the war not taken away what would have likely been his prime years.

[YoungGun]

 

 

WDC #5 up next.

[Craven Morehead]

Unreliability works both ways though, you can luck out on others' misfortunes too. I guess in Senna's case, he would be on a net loss though.

 

In order to finish first, you must first finish. 

[learningtobelost]

So much hate in here.

No driver wins consistently without the best car. The negativity towards Seb and Lewis is baffling to me, they both got into those cars by the grace of their talent alone, managed to stay there, see off a number of highly regarded drivers between them and win a shed-load of races... just like every great driver in the history of the sport.

[noikeee]

Evidently with 20 races per season and awesome reliability it diminishes the stat's relevance when comparing to a era where both of those things were different, and there's no doubt he's been blessed that his career moves have worked out better than other top drivers like Alonso, but I still find amusing the constant ******** of people claiming Vettel's lucky to have won FOURTY TWO races. Come on, he's wiped out Sebastian Bourdais, Mark Webber and Kimi Raikkonen, became F1's youngest ever winner and champion, won with a Toro Rosso in the rain, has four world titles to his name, had an extremely impressive pre-F1 record particularly in the World Series by Renault and Formula BMW, and people still think he's ****? Even accounting for last year and the possibility Ricciardo, maybe Alonso and Hamilton too from the rest of the grid, might be marginally (at best) better drivers overall?

 

I also find it funny and ironic he overtakes Senna in a weekend all pre-race talk was about how Hamilton was going to catch up with Senna.

[Glengavel]

F1 statistics have been worked out in just about every possible combination but I can't find a comprehensive table of wins vs finishes, which would partly level the playing field for drivers in unreliable cars. I worked out for a few drivers (stats from http://www.statsf1.com) 

 

Clark 25 from 45 = 56%

Fangio 24 from 44 = 55%

Moss 16 from 36 = 44%

Stewart 27 from 62 = 44%

Senna 41 from 111 = 42%

Schumacher 91 from 237 = 38%

Prost 51 from 138 = 37%

Vettel 42 from 127 = 33%

Hamilton 40 from 137 = 29%

Lauda 25 from 88 = 28%

Edited by Glengavel, 21 September 2015 - 09:38.

[Briz]

Depends on how you define "great car".

The Lotus was the 3rd best car in 85 and 86, and the 2nd best in 87. The McLaren's of 1992 and 1993 were also 3rd best overall.

I would say Senna always had decent cars (apart from the Toleman), just not great cars.

 

Something I have always been curious about is what Prost could have done point wise with those '85 and '86 Lotuses. Or at least a more mature Senna. He was of course fantastic in terms of pace those years, but wasted some opportunities due to inexperience and being... himself.

 

Also, 85/86 renault qualifying special engine allowed him to pile up all those poles with relative ease. Check how different '87 was in terms of poles, suddenly. Those were pretty good cars for improving your stats.

[noikeee]

Moss 16 from 36 = 44%

 

This sounded very weird to me so I went to check it out. You've got a little mistake there - he's got 66 starts not 36, so about 24% wins instead.

[rjsports]

Doesn't get enough praise about this achievement. I really laughed about the attention Hamilton got when he could equal Senna, when Vettel did it in way less races. It's simple, this is Formula 1. In order to win you need a dominate car and beat your teammate to win. You can't blame someone for being successful because of a dominate car. Than we could also question the victories of Schumacher in his dominate Ferrari years and Prost in his McLaren era. 

Edited by rjsports, 21 September 2015 - 09:54.

[Crossmax]

Yeah, yeah, but he would never have won a race if it wasn't for his Newey rocket ship! Oh, hold on...

[Dalton007]

This is a milestone in his career, and another statistic gathered by Vettel. His win at Singapore now places him at 42 wins, now alone in third place.

 

This is a very special achievement that should not go unnoticed.

 

Making history, one race at a time.

 

A fantastic driver.   He has been in great cars, but in those great cars he totally destroyed his team-mates. The Ferrari is a good car and he's putting Kimi in the shade. 

That being said, how'd he fair against a top, top team-mate in equal machinery?  Ric gave him a run for his money when the Red Bull was a handful. So there maybe some doubts when the car's rear isn't stable or to his liking... Still, a great achievement.