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VAG diesel emissions scandal's effect on its motorsport activities


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#1 gwk

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 14:52

How do you suppose that the (up to) $18bn hit that VAG may suffer for the diesel emission test 'defeat device' will affect its motorsport activities?  Dry up the budget the WRC, LeMans, and F1?  Or convince them that an effort to restore the brand would be well-served by success on the track?  

 

If the latter, maybe they could get Chad Knaus to run the programs…

 

 



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 14:55

....and the next VW/Audi/RB or something like that thread....


Edited by Marklar, 23 September 2015 - 14:57.


#3 oetzi

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 14:56

Oh, how dull. I thought Vag Diesel might be some kind of sapphic Vin Diesel or something. Never mind.

#4 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 14:58

locked in 1...2...3...



#5 superden

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 14:59

In before the lock.

#6 Petroltorque

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 15:11

I'm afraid we've been shown the red card if we attempt to discuss this topic in any other forum than the paddock club. Disclosure ; I'm not a member of the paddock club.

#7 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 15:40

Free to discuss the impact on VAG's motorsport activities the scandal could have, that is clearly defined in the opening post. The discussion of the scandal itself is not for this forum and can be discussed in the appropriate thread in The Paddock Club.



#8 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 15:49

VW took a big hit in not only the pocketbook but also it's image. IMO they will have no choice but to cut back on extras, and try to regain some good public relations.

 

Formula One may have a lot of appeal to auto manufacturers, but it is also perceived as wasteful when it comes to finances, pollution and emissions. Yes, Formula One is trying to make hybrid technology work, but that isn't exactly a success, fans hate it, and that negative mojo is spilling over into the general perception.

 

If VW is to continue racing, it will have to be carefully chosen, in series that do appear as emissions-friendly and less wasteful than Formula One.



#9 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 16:06

VW CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns. How will this affect VW in #WRC & Audi in #WEC and #DTM? http://bit.ly/1MJ1rNP 



#10 Fastcake

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 16:10

Well, if VW do suffer a colossal loss through fines or compensation, it'll be impossible for them to spend hundreds of millions on any motorsport programme. Even if it could be justified as having a positive impact on their image and sales after the crisis, trying to spend that much on an activity often seen as a vanity project with dubious gains will never be approved by the understandably angry shareholders, unions and governments. Sorting out the crisis will have to come first.

 

I'm not entirely familiar with the full scale of the VW Group's motorsport activities, nor what is managed centrally or controlled by the various subsidiaries or local units. Depending on how serious this ultimately turns out to be, you are potentially looking at the end of all works programmes like WEC or WRC, and they can forget an F1 entry. You'd think they would keep Audi in DTM, as a matter of pride if nothing else, and the various brands customer GT or touring car operations could likely keep going as they don't cost VW that much. Otherwise though, there are probably a lot of worried people in VW right now. Most of the manufacturers left F1 back in 2008/9 because they were losing money and closing factories or cutting the workforce, and it's impossible to justify the price of motorsport while you're doing that. It'll be no different for VW.



#11 Spillage

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 16:12

 

VW CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns. How will this affect VW in #WRC & Audi in #WEC and #DTM? http://bit.ly/1MJ1rNP 

 

Eddie Jordan says here that it was Winterkorn who confirmed to Red Bull that VW would be moving to take over the team in 2018. Whether or not this was a personal project of his I'm not sure, but it's certainly not a stretch to imagine that Winterkorn's departure will threaten their proposed F1 entry.



#12 DS27

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 16:42

No way will VW be in F1 this decade. This will be like the BP oil spill and grow arms and legs.

 

Still, who is to say many other manufacturers, perhaps including Renault & Mercedes, won't have similar skeletons in the closet that impact on their participation.



#13 Imperial

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 17:00

I'm an avid motorsport 'fan' and avid viewer of many and varied categories and....I couldn't name one series they race in. (Edit: To clarify I mean entered as VW)

I would argue that they're already wasting money on motorsport, because if someone who watches a reasonable amount of motorsport has no idea what they race and promote their wares in, then Joe Public and his £££ certainly ain't being reached.

This is a genuine guess at what they're involved in, whether as a factory entry or supplier:

* Paris to Dakar (their's is the big red/blue truck thing I believe).

* A Scirocco (can't be arsed to check spelling) series.

* Truck racing???

* A wee dabble in WRC or they recently entered/returned?

I'm fairly sure they don't race in BTCC, although I tuned out about two years ago. DTM....I don't think so....

I'll tell you this for free: I'm pretty sure they used to badge British F3 at some point over the last 10 to 15 years....but I don't think the engines were even theirs.

Pure guesswork.

I realise this evidently includes Audi. But perhaps proves a point that it'll have zero public perception on the Audi brand.

QED.

Edited by Imperial, 23 September 2015 - 17:04.


#14 Disgrace

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 17:05

If it turns out that more manufacturers than simply VW have been fudging their diesel emissions numbers, which I suspect is likely, it could change the way the technology is perceived in Europe, its primary market. European cities are already looking at banning them, and I imagine there will be some consumer backlash, so it might be curtains for diesels at Le Mans.



#15 ExFlagMan

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 17:06

 

I'm an avid motorsport 'fan' and avid viewer of many and varied categories and....I couldn't name one series they race in.

I would argue that they're already wasting money on motorsport, because if someone who watches a reasonable amount of motorsport has no idea what they race and promote their wares in, then Joe Public and his £££ certainly ain't being reached.

This is a genuine guess at what they're involved on, whether as a factory entry or supplier:

* Paris to Dakar (their's is the big red/blue truck think I believe).

* A Scirocco (can't be arsed to check spelling) series.

* Truck racing???

* A wee dabble in WRC or they recently entered/returned?

I'm fairly sure they don't race in BTCC, although I tuned out about two years ago. DTM....I don't think so....

I'll tell you this for free: I'm pretty sure they used to badge British F3 at some point over the last 10 to 15 years....but I don't think the engines were even theirs.

Pure guesswork.          

I think the majority of that post throws the bolded part into dispute :eek:



#16 Imperial

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 17:11

I think the majority of that post throws the bolded part into dispute :eek:


How? I made it clear I am referring to any entries as VW.

Not as Audi or anything else.

My point is, Citizen X doesn't know the link between VW and Audi, nor do they care. Remember we aren't the average race fan or car buyer. If my 66 year old mother wants to buy a VW or Audi she'll still do so irrespective of what is big in the news today. This represents most of the car buying world. People who buy cars are generally idiots.

#17 4Wheeldrift

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 17:33

They may well focus on greener sporting activities, and i think F1's hybrid could be part of that. But Audi (rebranded as VW) diesel in WEC even more so.

 

At the moment F1 cars cover 200 miles at roughly the same speed peaking at higher speeds as two years ago using roughly two thirds of the fuel.  That is a green success story (if we ignore whether motor racing as a luxury leisure activity can ever be green in principle).

 

The real problem for VW is that the reputational impact of the emissions scandal is of cheating.  Buying into F1 is buying into a club of teams who always "bend" the rules to get advantage.  Sometimes bending the rules into shapes that you can't believe the rules can support without breaking.



#18 OilFour

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 17:45

How do you suppose that the (up to) $18bn hit that VAG may suffer for the diesel emission test 'defeat device' will affect its motorsport activities?  Dry up the budget the WRC, LeMans, and F1?  Or convince them that an effort to restore the brand would be well-served by success on the track?  

 

If the latter, maybe they could get Chad Knaus to run the programs…

And you even forget the $30bn the VAG lost in value, it is easy imo, VW isn't buying anything at this moment, i can see the company split up or get rid of some very valuable or profitable parts of the company 



#19 BRG

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:28

And you even forget the $30bn the VAG lost in value

 

That's not a loss to VAG, it is the shareholders who have taken that hit.  I remember my economics tutor describing the stock exchange as dealing in 'old paper' and that wise companies didn't worry too much about share value as it isn't in their own accounts.

 

As for motorsport involvement, I can imagine a total withdrawal could be on the cards.  WRC is worthless to VW now as they have dominated for three years and will get little further benefit.  WEC is vulnerable with two competing VAG teams, but the Porsche family who are major shareholders in VAG might object to a Porsche pullout.  DTM is perhaps safer as it is a prestige battle with their domestic rivals and they might consider withdrawal as being too humiliating (compared to a $18bn fine though...?).  Other activities are nickel and dime matters and could survive or be axed as part of a house cleaning policy.

 

F1?  You must be joking!



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#20 ThisIsMischaW

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:30

How much do VW spend on motorsport? 



#21 OilFour

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:43

That's not a loss to VAG, it is the shareholders who have taken that hit.  I remember my economics tutor describing the stock exchange as dealing in 'old paper' and that wise companies didn't worry too much about share value as it isn't in their own accounts.

 

As for motorsport involvement, I can imagine a total withdrawal could be on the cards.  WRC is worthless to VW now as they have dominated for three years and will get little further benefit.  WEC is vulnerable with two competing VAG teams, but the Porsche family who are major shareholders in VAG might object to a Porsche pullout.  DTM is perhaps safer as it is a prestige battle with their domestic rivals and they might consider withdrawal as being too humiliating (compared to a $18bn fine though...?).  Other activities are nickel and dime matters and could survive or be axed as part of a house cleaning policy.

 

F1?  You must be joking!

I assume VAG still has the biggest shares in its own pocket?



#22 Talisman

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:43

My point is, Citizen X doesn't know the link between VW and Audi, nor do they care. Remember we aren't the average race fan or car buyer. If my 66 year old mother wants to buy a VW or Audi she'll still do so irrespective of what is big in the news today. This represents most of the car buying world. People who buy cars are generally idiots.

 

I don't think so.

 

This has been headline news across most news outlets across the world with articles making clear which brands and models are involved.  It will continue to be as the US investigations carry on and the penalties for VAG become clearer, as well as investigations and court actions elsewhere over the coming months and years.

Even if people live under a rock and miss that, they won't miss their residuals sliding as that will have a big effect on monthly payments for many finance agreements on new cars.

 

VAG were looking to cut costs and improve profitability before all this kicked off with a tiny market share in the US and the Chinese market in real trouble.  Now they will almost certainly look at cutting down capacity and letting people go as sales drop and financial penalties start hitting.  This will not be a good time to be seen spending money on activities perceived to be frivolous, motorsport definitely falls into that category.

 

F1 is out of the question now, the rest will have to make a case for themselves.  I bet one of Audi or Porsche will pull out of WEC.  Who knows about the rest.



#23 BRG

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:49

I assume VAG still has the biggest shares in its own pocket?

I don't think so.

Current voting rights distribution (as at December 31, 2014)

50.73%  Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart

20.00% State of Lower Saxony, Hanover

17.00% Qatar Holding

12.30% Others


Edited by BRG, 23 September 2015 - 18:50.


#24 Tapz63

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:49

Well it seems this may have been what all that cost cutting was about that was announced last year.
http://www.wsj.com/a...aign-1405430238

The US authorities began questioning the emissions last year also.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-34324772

"In 2014, in the US, regulators raised concerns about VW emissions levels, but these were dismissed by the company as "technical issues" and "unexpected" real-world conditions. If executives and managers wilfully misled officials (or their own VW superiors) it's difficult to see them surviving."

This could explain Piech's resignation as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-32468360

As to if it should affect their motorsport activities, well any change of management may do in some ways, but I am not expecting them to start dropping out series left right and center, possibly even the opposite.

Edited by Tapz63, 23 September 2015 - 18:51.


#25 mclarensmps

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:52

Hehe... this exact same thread type was closed yesterday...



#26 Heisenberg

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 18:58

It makes you wonder though, what are the true emissions for the cars of every  manufacturer.. Because we already know the official fuel consumption that everyone gives if obviously not the one you get in real life, so why should the emissions be the same? Anyway, VW lost a lot of credibility with this and I wonder how will that affect them if they are to enter F1.



#27 August

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 19:12

Anyway, VW lost a lot of credibility with this and I wonder how will that affect them if they are to enter F1.


As if F1 has such a great reputation after the bribery suit against BE. VW would be just fine.

#28 OilFour

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 19:16

I'm totally confused, so VW "buys out" Porsche and pays with VAG shares? The Porsche Group now has the biggest share in VAG, i can not imagion Porsches Value being as high as 50% from VAG ( maybe today :p ).

 

I need to do some reading tonight ...



#29 BRG

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 20:07

I never really understood that whole 'Porsche owns VW' saga.



#30 Tapz63

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 20:40


I don't think so.

Current voting rights distribution (as at December 31, 2014)

50.73% Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart
20.00% State of Lower Saxony, Hanover
17.00% Qatar Holding
12.30% Others



I found this in a more recent article about Winterkorns resignation. Don't know if it is more accurate or not though.

http://i.imgur.com/aGJu4hh.jpg


http://www.cnbc.com/...swagen-ceo.html

Edited by Tapz63, 23 September 2015 - 20:42.


#31 pdac

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 20:56

I found this in a more recent article about Winterkorns resignation. Don't know if it is more accurate or not though.

http://i.imgur.com/aGJu4hh.jpg


http://www.cnbc.com/...swagen-ceo.html

 

Maybe Porsche and Lower Saxony dumped as many as they could before the scandal reached the public arena



#32 LORDBYRON

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 22:31

Hehe... this exact same thread type was closed yesterday...

Nothing changes in here lol many a thread been locked



#33 FLB

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 02:30

Two executives I think must definitely have known are Dr. Ulrich Hackenberg (Wolfgang Ullrich's boss) and Wolfgang Hatz, the currrent head of Porsche's LMP program. They were both in VW Powertrain Development in the mid-late 2000s when the cheat system must have been designed around the EA189.


Edited by FLB, 24 September 2015 - 02:31.


#34 HP

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 08:02

Well 18 bn+ could have bought many years of F1 involvement. Now all the have a big hole in the pocket, and embarrassment.

 

Maybe indirectly it also influences Mercedes involvement in F1, as the stock value of Mercedes took a small dive as well, when some rumours were made public other car manufacturers might use similar devices as VAG.

 

In any case sounds like a discussion about F1 to me, just the playing arena is much wider.



#35 Fatgadget

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 08:59

Hehe... this exact same thread type was closed yesterday...

Yeah but this one is cleverly titled :p

#36 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:00

I'm an avid motorsport 'fan' and avid viewer of many and varied categories and....I couldn't name one series they race in. (Edit: To clarify I mean entered as VW)

I would argue that they're already wasting money on motorsport, because if someone who watches a reasonable amount of motorsport has no idea what they race and promote their wares in, then Joe Public and his £££ certainly ain't being reached.

This is a genuine guess at what they're involved in, whether as a factory entry or supplier:

* Paris to Dakar (their's is the big red/blue truck thing I believe).

* A Scirocco (can't be arsed to check spelling) series.

* Truck racing???

* A wee dabble in WRC or they recently entered/returned?

I'm fairly sure they don't race in BTCC, although I tuned out about two years ago. DTM....I don't think so....

I'll tell you this for free: I'm pretty sure they used to badge British F3 at some point over the last 10 to 15 years....but I don't think the engines were even theirs.

Pure guesswork.

I realise this evidently includes Audi. But perhaps proves a point that it'll have zero public perception on the Audi brand.

QED.

 

 

I took the liberty to include the group here to give you a nice little image. 

 

World Rally Championship - dominates the WRC with the VW Polo WRC

 

DTM - Compete with Audi

 

WEC - Compete with Porsche

 

GT3/GTE - Compete with Porsche as well as selling cars to customer teams

 

Touring Car International - sell Seat Leon TCR cars to customer teams as per regulation. A VW Golf TCR has just been debuted, run by Engstler Motorsport

 

BTCC - privateer team racing with VW Passat with some VW backing

 

Seat Leon Cup - European one make cup with Seat Leon. In addition there is a Skoda Octavia Cup in Czech and a Easter European VW Golf Cup. 

 

World Rallycross Championship - Two official factory VW teams competing with official backing, run by teams with VW backing. In addition there are also Mattias Ekström Audi team, also with official backing. 

 

Global Rallycross USA - official factory team in US as well, the VW Beetle, with Andretti Autosport 

 

 

Asian Rally - A VW Golf made for rallying in China by Prodrive with support from Volkswagen 

 

Formula 3 - Official backing as engine supplier

 

Volkswagen Group is quite active in motorsport with all its brands including Volkswagen and you really have to include WRC and World Rallycross as high end factory programs with the Volkswagen brand. 

 

And there's probably more I've missed. 



#37 August

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:08

GT3/GTE - Compete with Porsche as well as selling cars to customer teams.


Plus Audi, Bentley, and Lamborghini in GT3.

#38 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:41

True and of course. Stupid to miss. 

 

Conclusion: Volkswagen group possibly the one single car group with the biggest involvement in motorsport. 



#39 Gyno

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:11

Have they tested Mercedes cars in the US or is it just the VW cars they tested`?

 

If Mercedes gets caught doing the same thing, then you can wave them goodbye from F1.



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#40 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:14

Have they tested Mercedes cars in the US or is it just the VW cars they tested`?

 

If Mercedes gets caught doing the same thing, then you can wave them goodbye from F1.

No. (and it seems VW is the only manufact. with the software test bench cheating trick)

and isn't it only US/California

 

but in Germany (and EU) probably all new Diesel cars (french/Italian/german) run with illegal emssions...

but no test cheating software here (and necessary),

because the authorities don't care $$$

 

 

All manufacturers seem to take this seriuos in the US but not elswhere...

 

VW tried to save some 100 Mio $ (less advanced filter hardware and now is f*ed epically)...

 

but the industry does this all the time (especially te big Chem. so no Schadenfreude pls, just unlucky,

an Nox is just minor thing compared to Fracking, Hilltop mining (legal) and Fuku or Exx Horizon etc.


Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 24 September 2015 - 11:20.


#41 Sash1

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:44

BWM has just be caught to exceed emission levels in Europe with an X3 diesel model, 11 times more than allowed. Stock is going down at the moment. Not with cheating software apparently, they "simply forgot" to put a sensor in to measure the output so that the software cannot compensate.... http://www.autobild....te-6920195.html


Edited by Sash1, 24 September 2015 - 11:48.


#42 Imperial

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:56

Cheers all for the list of varying series.

I opened myself up to being critiqued by my original post I guess, but DID try to make it clear I meant only VW badged entries. Glad to see 99% of people understand and engage, as oppose to wisecracks.

Thanks!

#43 FLB

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:17

Two executives I think must definitely have known are Dr. Ulrich Hackenberg (Wolfgang Ullrich's boss) and Wolfgang Hatz, the currrent head of Porsche's LMP program. They were both in VW Powertrain Development in the mid-late 2000s when the cheat system must have been designed around the EA189.

There we go: According to Der Spiegel, both Hackenberg and Hatz have left the Group or should do so shortly, along with Hans-Jakob Neusser:

 

http://www.spiegel.d...-a-1054567.html

 

(auf Deutsch)


Edited by FLB, 24 September 2015 - 12:18.


#44 Hans V

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:34

I think this very well could affect VW's decision (if not already made) of two reasons;

1) Spending huge amounts of money on F1 in a situation where they are facing an unknown number of billions in damages from lawsuits might not be in the shareholders interest.

2) To go heavily into F1 is maybe not the best way for a company to rebuild their reputation as an environmentally conscious company. That money could probably be better spent elsewhere in such a situation.



#45 Victor_RO

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:40

I think this very well could affect VW's decision (if not already made) of two reasons;

1) Spending huge amounts of money on F1 in a situation where they are facing an unknown number of billions in damages from lawsuits might not be in the shareholders interest.

2) To go heavily into F1 is maybe not the best way for a company to rebuild their reputation as an environmentally conscious company. That money could probably be better spent elsewhere in such a situation.

 

Not just that, Hackenberg and Hatz getting the axe raises serious questions about even their short-term plans in DTM and the FIA WEC. With diesel engines being demonized in this scandal, I see at least the Audi LMP1 program being either shut down or seriously downsized (and with a different type of fuel in the tank), without any other motorsport programs replacing it.



#46 Risil

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:44

BWM has just be caught to exceed emission levels in Europe with an X3 diesel model, 11 times more than allowed. Stock is going down at the moment. Not with cheating software apparently, they "simply forgot" to put a sensor in to measure the output so that the software cannot compensate.... http://www.autobild....te-6920195.html

 

If I understand the situation correctly, VW-style "cheat software" exploits a loophole in European emissions regulations and may not be illegal as such.

 

PR, and indeed the judgement of a real court, is another matter.



#47 Petroltorque

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:49

If it turns out that more manufacturers than simply VW have been fudging their diesel emissions numbers, which I suspect is likely, it could change the way the technology is perceived in Europe, its primary market. European cities are already looking at banning them, and I imagine there will be some consumer backlash, so it might be curtains for diesels at Le Mans.

People re conflating the situation with VW and the fudging of CO emissions by manufacturers in general. If I might add some scientific rigour to the discussion; Enviromental agencies have noted that over the last 10 years measured inner city pollution has increased despite manufacturer emissions falling year on year. This mainly applies to CO in petrol cars. The manufacturers have been gaming tests by submitting cars that have had seats removed, spare tyres lifted all to get better values.
Non of the other companies have deliberately coded ecu software to give false readings. The diesel tests include some/soot and nitrous oxide. It's these particulates that are associated with increased infant morbidity and premature death.

#48 Risil

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:51

Not just that, Hackenberg and Hatz getting the axe raises serious questions about even their short-term plans in DTM and the FIA WEC. With diesel engines being demonized in this scandal, I see at least the Audi LMP1 program being either shut down or seriously downsized (and with a different type of fuel in the tank), without any other motorsport programs replacing it.

 

On Midweek Motorsport yesterday they were speculating that a high-performance, rule-abiding diesel at Le Mans would help offset the public disaster of the emissions scandal. Sort of indicating that there's nothing wrong with diesel hybrids, in principle. Plus there's the shrewd point that Imperial makes that most people won't automatically make the connection between a Volkswagen scandal and an Audi race programme. Plus, in the short-term these programmes are already paid for.

 

Wishful thinking maybe.



#49 maverick69

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:56

Seems like a classic witch-hunt/stitch-up to me in order to appease the domestic manufacturers and fuel producers.  If you can find me a major car company that doesn't exaggerate and manipulate its figures..... then I'll buy you a pint.

 

I still think they'll be in F1 in the next couple of years.



#50 loki

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 13:07

VAG isn't going to have any spare cash to throw around particularly on an F1 effort.  The US$18bil referenced in this thread is only the civil penalty in the US for the tampering.  There will likely be criminal penalites at least in terms of fines and lawyers are already lining up clients for a class action suit against them.  And that's on top of the cost to fix the cars.  I didn't see it before and I certainly don't see it now.