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Mercedes\Ferrari not willing to supply teams that might be able to compete with them should be a concern for the whole competition


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#1 Isenbold

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 12:45

Although I acknowledge there are legitimate concerns about Red Bull's behaviour I am concerned that both Mercedes and Ferrari have indicated that the major concern with regard to supplying Red Bull with engines is for competitive reasons rather than other issues.  There seems no other reason than competitive ones that Ferrari would be prepared to supply Red Bull with engines but only year old models.  I understand suppliers do have the right to decide who they will supply and that they have clearly invested heavily to develop these expensive engines but the current proposals  for Red Bull only to be supplied with last years engines essentially mean  Mercedes and Ferrari will be able to determine the structure of the sport, being able to create a two tier system with some teams running current engines and others only running obsolete engines.  It seems inherently wrong that competitors in a competition are able to stratify the competition to suit themselves.

 

If the only two engine suppliers with viable engines are going to selectively supply engines to teams based on whether they are a threat or not, supplying viable engines to teams they deem unable to compete with them and uncompetitive engines to those they deem a threat surely this has implications for the viability of the entire competition.  Essentially whilst the current engine regulations are in place it is extremely unlikely any other engine suppliers will be able to catch up given the token system and the extremely limited development allowed.  I understand that F1 does have periods of dominance but if current year engines are only to be provided to non-competitive opposition we are guaranteeing a two horse race with only Mercedes or Ferrari capable of winning barring the occasional exceptional circumstances.  This will not help fan numbers, TV viewership or sponsorship of teams other than the top two.

 

This is not meant to be pro\against Red Bull or troll bait however there seems to have been very little discussion of this issues, especially in the mainstream F1 press.  The comments on most articles on the Red Bull issues all deteriorate to peoples attitudes to the Red Bull team rather than the implications  Even the BBC Japan preview degenerated to a correspondent talking about toys being thrown out of the pram and no real discussion of the anti-competitive issues.  

 

I would be very interested in whether other F1 fans do consider this a valid issue that may need addressing in some manner by the powers that be.  Iam not really interested in peoples opinions on Red Bull\ Christian Horner\ Red bulls behaviour as I feel htere are plenty of other threads where that has been aired  extensively and that is not the issue I am trying to raise.



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#2 krea

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 12:49

Either make the rule that every teams should make their own chassis and engines and simplify the rulesets for engines in a significant way or force the engines companies to sell their engines to everyone without a or b models. 

 

Right now we are in a Mercedes & Ferrrari duopoly.



#3 noikeee

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 12:52

I agree, but this should've all been thought beforehand. Now whatever decision is made (to force people to give out engines, equalize them, open up development, or keeping everything as it is), is attached to all sorts of political interests from each of the leading teams and it gets very messy.



#4 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:04

it always was like this.

 

Renault and Honda will be able to catch up (FIA will allow)

 

RB brought this on themselves.

 

RB has taken F1 hostage, nothing else.

 

and see there stance regarding a budget cap (they don't want competition)

 

Case closed.



#5 sopa

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:04

The sad truth indeed is that unless Honda does a miracle for 2017 (for 2016 impossible, too much mountain to climb), or VW or somebody else joins in a few years time and also does a miracle... we are left with only 2 competitive F1 teams for a while... Or till the next regulations change. Predicting F1 future has never been easier than now!  :p

 

I can understand, why Mercedes and Ferrari do it. In all honesty, if either company dominates they would not care even if they had no competition at all. I guess Williams wasn't happy that all their super-gizmos were banned after 1993, and they were enjoying utter domination, and would not have liked to share their advancements in technology with anybody. Ferrari certainly enjoyed their 2002, and Red Bull their aerodynamics supremacy in early 2010s.

 

It is up to the powers of the sport to "do something" about regulations, if competition gets too boring. Of course, then we will have complaints that FIA "fixes" the sport, "punishes" the best, like they have done in the past. Well, you can never please everyone, can you?



#6 Imperial

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:13

There can be a capacity issue. That is a very real possibility.

I don't see it as a given that it is as easy to supply current spec engines for at least one more team as it would be to supply 'year old' engines.

Ferrari and Mercedes both will have built, or as near as, but unused 2015 engines in stock. They will have only prototypes of their 2016 specs ready, if at all.

It is highly likely they either cannot or are unwilling to make huge changes that would be necessary to start building double or three times the volume of engines for 2016 that they had anticipated. It's October in a matter of days, this stuff doesn't just happen overnight.

If however it IS due to competition, then I say so be it. The clue is in the word 'competition'.

Red Bull want to compete on their terms by demanding a 2016 spec engine. Isn't it the same for other teams to compete on their terms too and say no?

Edited by Imperial, 26 September 2015 - 13:13.


#7 anneomoly

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:17

Customer teams don't win world championships. Works teams do. That an engine supplier doesn't want to see a customer team beat their works team is reasonable.

 

It's not the actual hardware they're quibbling over with Ferrari, is it? It's the software - the engine mapping, the fuel. So Red Bull are basically crying because they're going to be treated in exactly the same way that Mercedes treats Williams, instead preferring the treatment that Mercedes gives Mercedes or Ferrari gives Ferrari. It's not reasonable. If Red Bull wanted to be a works team, with the close relationship that that entails, they should have found a suitable alternative before they drove Renault away.



#8 Mohican

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:22

Red Bull voted against budget cap. They were the Renault works team, and certainly had no time for any talk of Lotus and Williams having parity, when the the two latter teams were with Renault.

Red Bull have made their bed, and now have to lie in it.

#9 realracer200

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:23

In Formula 1 everybody cares only about their own interests. Big news. In my opinion the FIA should freeze the development of the best engines and allow the others to catch up. But that's never going to happen.
 



#10 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:26

Formula One sure has painted themselves into a corner, haven't they? This topic is born out of the fact that the current rules and power structure have resulted in just two engine manufacturers having anything viable, and thus able to control not only their own fate, but those of others. The irony of it all is the V-6 turbo/hybrid regulations were supposed to draw in more engine manufacturers, make it attractive for them.

 

It's not Ferrari's fault,nor is it Mercedes's fault, it is in who had any influence in how this sad scenario came into being. Neither Ferrari or Mercedes had any intention of controlling the sport in the way they do, they just wanted to control their own fates, and maybe sell some engines. Of course Red Bull are the jilted lover in this love triangle, and they are getting nowhere on the sympathy angle. Maybe they should go on Oprah. Oh wait, that show is no longer running, and they are just coming out of Jerry Springer.

 

Racing may appear cordial, but the teams are in a competition, a very fierce one. It is kill or be killed, and we see victims occasionally succumb and perish. That is the way of Formula One, very few survive, many die.

 

Personally, I'm not concerned about the conduct of any teams, but rather the future of Formula one, not only for the next few years, but for the next decade. Strangely enough, many teams that would benefit from any sudden changes to fix the problem would cry and stamp their feet because it would inconvenience them today. And in an act of perversion, they do have a say, they do have power to cripple any positive changes. It's a pretty f--ked up situation.

 

I'm long past the point of tears, this crap wore me down a long time ago. So right now I just see the irony and sick humor in all this. And somehow, this seems fitting.

 



#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:27

Nothing wrong with Ferrari and Mercedes not wanting to hand out advantages that they worked for to their competition.

The sport needs to attract more engine manufacturers.

EDIT: Blinky above saying same thing much better.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 September 2015 - 13:30.


#12 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:27

Call me naive, or unaware of the rules, or how things work, but is there anything to stop an outside party coming in to fill the 'market gap'? Say Cosworth or something? Toyota?

#13 Jimisgod

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:29

Time to watch an engine circlejerk for 2016.

 

Ferrari and Mercedes lack the balls to supply a true competitor. I guess the Ferrari fans will be happy that we'll be back to Ferrari winning by default.



#14 robefc

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:31

It's a bit of a weird situation full stop isn't it? f1 is a competition to build the quickest car but a huge part of what makes it quickest is the engine.

If you were designing a sport from scratch you would presumably have teams that all make their own engines or a single supplier.

#15 robefc

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:32

Time to watch an engine circlejerk for 2016.

Ferrari and Mercedes lack the balls to supply a true competitor. I guess the Ferrari fans will be happy that we'll be back to Ferrari winning by default.


I wonder if RB would have the balls to pass over Newey's sketch book to their biggest competitors?

#16 CHIUNDA

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:32

Looks like for their own good Redbull cannot divorce Renault.

#17 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:33

The way I see it, the appearing monopoly situation is an invitation for someone else to jump in. I know these things take time, but RB could / should bite the bullet, take a 'b spec' for a year while getting someone else in. I know the VAG idea seems gone now....

#18 Cloxxki

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:35

Call me naive, or unaware of the rules, or how things work, but is there anything to stop an outside party coming in to fill the 'market gap'? Say Cosworth or something? Toyota?

Nope. Engine regulations (to save fuel) have made power units way too coomplicated. Extremely expensive to develop. But, development i mostly not allowed. You need to race what you made for the beginning of the year, all year. And next year make changes on that engine, not start over. And no testing in cars. The absolute opposite of real automotive development, where budget is a factor and testing is crucial to come to better solutions.



#19 Jimisgod

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:36

I wonder if RB would have the balls to pass over Newey's sketch book to their biggest competitors?

 

Because Ferrari and Mercedes don't already supply engines to other teams... :rolleyes:

 

It's a lesson to RBR - build your own engines or you're a 2nd class citizen in F1.



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#20 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:36

Anyhow, the main point is, in answering the open post question, is that in theory, according to market forces if such things are allowed to prevail, the oncoming monopoly won't last, because it is in itself making a gap in the engine market

#21 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:37

Nope. Engine regulations (to save fuel) have made power units way too coomplicated. Extremely expensive to develop. But, development i mostly not allowed. You need to race what you made for the beginning of the year, all year. And next year make changes on that engine, not start over. And no testing in cars. The absolute opposite of real automotive development, where budget is a factor and testing is crucial to come to better solutions.


In that case it is a concern, because to answer what I just said, market forces are not allowed to prevail here.

#22 Jimisgod

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:38

Anyhow, the main point is, in answering the open post question, is that in theory, according to market forces if such things are allowed to prevail, the oncoming monopoly won't last, because it is in itself making a gap in the engine market

 

You mean like Honda? :lol: Speaks volumes of economic theory vs. reality.



#23 saudoso

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:40

In that case it is a concern, because to answer what I just said, market forces are not allowed to prevail here.


Yep, it's effed up beyond belief.

#24 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:40

You mean like Honda? :lol: Speaks volumes of economic theory vs. reality.


Heh. Yeah, but I've always Said don't take Honda for their performance so far, I reckon they're in it for the long run, they have to be, and it will get better

#25 josepatches

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:43

I wonder if RB would have the balls to pass over Newey's sketch book to their biggest competitors?


Or to give all their money to Sauber for example.
No, they only want to keep their big advantage over the rest of the field.

Is it fair Red Bull has the better chassis? Or more money to spend?
Built your own engine

#26 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:44

Yep, it's effed up beyond belief.


Looks that way, but.... It can't be that black and white. Ok, this era of f1 is a long term multi year plan (when has it not been), it means teams if they can afford to, have to bite a long bullet before they are at the top again. I suspect we will see multi year dominations changing every 3 years or so. But then, it may not be that way, because that's a loooong time forecast by which time the rules may have changed yet again....

#27 Imperial

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:46

They've only been back a season, so certainly they won't bail out imminently, but...BMW, Ford and Toyota all left having done nothing of great particular note and it hasn't affected their sales afaik, so I also don't doubt the potential for them to quit if they can't get it together.

Nobody foreseen the RBR/Renault divorce, anything is possible.

#28 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:46

My answer to the OP: short term - yeah, looks bad and there will be a period of grid monolopy. Long term - I bet it will change

#29 Seanspeed

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:50

Nope. Engine regulations (to save fuel) have made power units way too coomplicated. Extremely expensive to develop. But, development i mostly not allowed. You need to race what you made for the beginning of the year, all year. And next year make changes on that engine, not start over. And no testing in cars. The absolute opposite of real automotive development, where budget is a factor and testing is crucial to come to better solutions.

Right. Engines are very complicated, hard to get right, and cost a lot of money with little guarantee of turning up competitive. And if you dont get it right, there's not a whole lot of room for development to fix your issues. That's not a particularly inviting situation for outside engine makers.

The sport needs to fix this situation somehow.

#30 YoungGun

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:51

Wonder if RBR would have even considered this year's Ferrari engine if it was no better then 2014's?


Edited by YoungGun, 26 September 2015 - 13:52.


#31 BullHead

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 13:54

Bernie could do one of two things, keep the rules in the direction they are going and mandate a standard supplier ala Cosworth 2010, or open things up for freer development. One would be very expensive, the other not.

#32 Jazza

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:06

Won't forcing manufactures to hand over the latest spec (along with software, oils, etc) so that everyone has an equal chance only narrow the sport down to a spec series in the long one?

 

What I mean by that is that if the sport regulates it so a team like Redbull is given the the latest Mercedes engines (Basically a works deal), won't the same have to be done for Williams, Force India, Marussia? If Mercedes have the best engine and all customers are going to be given the works treatment, what reason then is there for anyone else to stay with another engine? What point does a team like McLaren have to stick with Honda when half the grid in front of them have better engines? At least at the moment McLaren can hope to beat Williams and force India, etc, next year, because even if the Honda is not as good as a factory Mercedes it could still possibly beat a customer engine. But if everyone gets the works treatment the chances of that get less and less. So why wouldn't McLaren just dump Honda and expect to once again get a full works treatment Mercedes Engine if anyone can just put there hand up and say "I want the best engine engine on the grid and I want the full bells and whistle with it". What purpose is there to go another way? The only reason Mclaren went another way is because they knew a simple customer deal wouldn't cut it. Now if customers can get the full package it defeats the point of chancing it with anyone else. And even if they do and that chance pays off and Honda become the best engine, wont RedBull and the other now want to jump over to Honda to once again get the best? Plus why would Red Bull in a few years even bother teaming up with some else (Like Audi) when they already have the best engine? 

 

The WCC could end up being decided by engine brand alone forcing everyone to keep migrating to the best engine of the day, basically leaving no reason for any other manufacture to come in.  



#33 turssi

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:14

In love and engine wars all is fair!

#34 RedBaron

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:22

Who would have though Formula 1 would find itself in this mess, it really does blow your mind.

 

Hang on, no it doesn't. This is Formula 1.



#35 Zava

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:24

Because Ferrari and Mercedes don't already supply engines to other teams... :rolleyes:

 

It's a lesson to RBR - build your own engines or you're a 2nd class citizen in F1.

yes, they do supply engines. however that is not all red bull wants, they demand exactly the same of everything ferrari uses, like mappings and fuel. :rolleyes:

 

I say: give them the exact same spec hardware, but go figure out fuel with total and mappings with their own tech guys.



#36 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:40

It's a very strange sport, but perhaps it's generous to even call it that in the first place.

 

Most sports I follow have salary caps, or drafts.. equalising the competition year to year and keeping things fresh over time.  You have 'tanking' which is a bit of a drag but you also have cycles with teams rebuilding and coming back and teams at the top fighting to stay there.  Either way, there is a constant battle at the top that is ever evolving or changing.. and any number of teams that can win going into a season.  The teams that are financially sound are rewarded or even favoured, but only slightly so.. and it's more of a financial/profit reward rather than a performance advantage.

 

And then there's sports like F1.  Where you can have a team like Ferrari, who is the biggest name in the sport, gets extra handouts just for being Ferrari and STILL not make profit during a season.

 

It's a very strange sport, but perhaps it's generous to even call it that in the first place.  It becomes more and more true every year.  It becomes these things play out over time because it becomes so predictable and transparent.  I've seen people call F1 nothing but a "money sport" and things like that, and felt sorry for them if that was all they could see.  I've often felt sorry for Bernie Eccelstone because sometimes I think that even HE doesn't seem the true greatness of F1 when it's at it's best.  The magic that the drivers do on track.

 

But every year it becomes more and more true, even if just looking at the drivers and their impact on the car (where rookies can step into the car and immediately be on the pace)... let alone all of these other issues, whether it's teams going bankrupt or new obscure countries hosting tracks only to be abandoned a few years later or whatever else.  It's very rare in any sport that a rookie can step in and be competitive it takes years to mature and come to a level of mastery that can compete with the "top dogs" but F1 becomes more and more like the cars are sort of choreographed puppets being told what to do from the pitwall and that drivers are chosen more for their marketability (or their sponsor funding) as opposed to their actual level of driving.  There actual skill level of driving doesn't seem that important these days.  It's even got to a point in recent years where drivers drive to laptime deltas, which is just cringeworthy when having a "race".

 

To this specific issue.

 

On the one hand, Redbull probably wouldn't want to have given others their chassis during the dominance.  Fair enough?

 

On the other hand, if all of the teams had a chassis similar to the level of Redbull, what would happen?  Merc and Ferrari use their own engine and Honda supply everyone else?  Honda and Renault?

 

You already have a system that rewards the teams that score points (the exact opposite system sports that have a draft) and shafts the lower teams, dooming them to always being at the back.  The F1 financial system is actually very similar to the worlds business economy but that's a different topic.

 

So yeah.. self preservation, greed, monopolies, piranha clubs, politics.. nothing new here.  Maybe one day there'll just be Ferrari getting 1-2's and the rest of the private teams will be 2 seconds behind the pack with no chance.. and the Ferrari drivers will go onto the podium and spray champagne like it's the happiest day of their lives.  It'd feel pretty cheap and I don't think many people would want to watch.

 

Until then we can at least enjoy the semi illusion of it being somewhat of a sport.

 

I don't think the problem is so much Ferrari or Mercedes self interest but more how the engine regs were structured in the first place.  It never made sense to me.

 

I can only imagine the uproars and tears shed if Redbull's dominance had coincided with a period where the chassis updates were regulated by tokens and their advantage was "locked in".  The uproar and cheating allegations and constant regs changes were bad enough as it was.

 

I find it hard to get too invested or emotional over this stuff these days.  I even felt that way during the latter years of Redbull's dominance.  If your team is winning championships and it seems "worse" or stale, you know something is wrong.  It's the Seb Vettel's, the Lewis Hamilton's and the Fernando Alonso's that make me want to watch at all, but they rarely even get to race each other.  It's a very strange sport.

 

F1 has become so transparent over the years.  I wonder if those that take it uber seriously, if they'd want to argue for 60 pages about it.. if they have something lacking in their own lives.. a lack of personal achievements or something to focus on, that they could get so sucked into it all.  Are the TV marketing ads really that convincing?  Does it really matter if a driver is from your country?  I don't dislike anyone in the paddock (except maybe Bernie), as they are all just doing their job and playing by the rules that have been layed out to them.  So it's hard to try to label one team or driver as good and the rest as bad.

 

When the teams/drivers get caught up in the drama, you can understand, there is personal investment and egos at stake.  They have a vested personal interest.

 

I feel sorry for the journos in the paddock who probably thought it was their dream job to be where the are, and then get to a point where it's like.. "this is what F1 has become?"...  Or the F1 drivers who get there, seem to become complacent and ask themselves from time to time "why couldn't I have been born 20 years earlier?"

 

The racing on track is what matters.  Having as good of a 'product' on track as possible.  The fastest drivers in the fastest cars battling on track to see at the end of each Sunday who the best was.  That would be nice.  Instead it feels like we watch 90 minute commercials for car companies where the best driver may or may not win depending on how circumstances play out.  At the moment, Alonso and Button are locked in and stuck in a car that will be going nowhere for the next few years.  In some sports they could demand a trade.  Would Ferrari even want to trade Alonso for Kimi?  No.  Because there'd be no advantage to it.  Seb would still be behind the Mercs and they'd still be 2nd in the WCC.  Strange sport.  There used to be some sort of debate in years gone by, of how much of an impact a driver could have.. in a poor car vs a good car, but in the last 5 years it's become very hard for any driver to overcome the car they drive.  A lot of interesting debates that used to happen on here are now just forgone conlusions because it's all so obvious.  So there's no reason to discuss it.

 

It'd be nice to see the best drivers in the best cars fighting at the front every race.

 

The rest of it.. the politics, is only one step above celebrity gossip and Jerry Springer reruns.  A lot of the time in F1, the politics stories play out more in the media than the actual racing does.  Unless teammates collide, people will usually talk about the racing for a day or two.  But they'll talk about the politics for months.  Strange sport.

 

I guess this is all a part of F1's appeal but yeah, it's very strange.



#37 Imperial

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:48

Ferrari F1 doesn't need to make a profit.

#38 ardbeg

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:51

I think it would be crazy to force a competitor to help another competitor.



#39 George Costanza

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:53

Customer teams don't win world championships. Works teams do. That an engine supplier doesn't want to see a customer team beat their works team is reasonable.

 

It's not the actual hardware they're quibbling over with Ferrari, is it? It's the software - the engine mapping, the fuel. So Red Bull are basically crying because they're going to be treated in exactly the same way that Mercedes treats Williams, instead preferring the treatment that Mercedes gives Mercedes or Ferrari gives Ferrari. It's not reasonable. If Red Bull wanted to be a works team, with the close relationship that that entails, they should have found a suitable alternative before they drove Renault away.

Except Benetton in 1995?



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#40 Nonesuch

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 14:56

Mercedes and Ferrari will be able to determine the structure of the sport, being able to create a two tier system with some teams running current engines and others only running obsolete engines.  It seems inherently wrong that competitors in a competition are able to stratify the competition to suit themselves.

 
How is it wrong? Red Bull didn't hire Adrian Newey for four days a week - they wanted him all to themselves.
 
Teams want to protect their advantages, which seems fair enough.
 

If the only two engine suppliers with viable engines are going to selectively supply engines to teams based on whether they are a threat or not, supplying viable engines to teams they deem unable to compete with them and uncompetitive engines to those they deem a threat surely this has implications for the viability of the entire competition.

 

Essentially whilst the current engine regulations are in place it is extremely unlikely any other engine suppliers will be able to catch up given the token system and the extremely limited development allowed.  I understand that F1 does have periods of dominance but if current year engines are only to be provided to non-competitive opposition we are guaranteeing a two horse race with only Mercedes or Ferrari capable of winning barring the occasional exceptional circumstances.  This will not help fan numbers, TV viewership or sponsorship of teams other than the top two.

 

The regulations are the main culprit. We have four very accomplished manufacturers in F1, but still Mercedes is dominating. That Mercedes got it right is impressive, and there is nothing - other than the tiresome team 'battle' - wrong with them winning the championship. But whatever the case, it makes little sense in a supposed 'competition' to make it difficult on the participants to test, improve and make steps to close that gap.

 

Back to your first point: that a team like Red Bull finds itself without an engine partner doesn't have to be a problem if the barriers to entry and the limits on development wouldn't be so high. Who do you think Honda would rather partner with? The 'no WCC since 1998' McLaren or Red Bull? A strong and talented team without an engine supplier is an incredible opportunity for an engine manufacturer to join the sport!

 

But Where's Audi? Where's Toyota? Where's BMW? Where's Ford? Where's Cosworth? Where's Aston Martin? Where's Chevrolet? Where's Nissan? Where's Mazda?

 

Nobody seems interested in joining. That's the real problem as far as I'm concerned.

 

This is all echoes of 2009 when F1 lost BMW and Toyota.

 

It didn't seem so bad bad in 2010 because Cosworth supplied all the hopeless teams with some engines (plus Williams).

 

Even then we had 2 teams on Renault, 3 teams on Mercedes, and 3 teams on Ferrari. That's it.

 

I would be very interested in whether other F1 fans do consider this a valid issue that may need addressing in some manner by the powers that be.

 
Yes: the rules that limit development and testing of the engines need to be scrapped as soon as possible.

 

... is there anything to stop an outside party coming in to fill the 'market gap'? Say Cosworth or something? Toyota?

 
Not really. Whatever the regulations, the FIA has managed to find ways to make things work if new parties want to join.  The problem is that the regulations are so restrictive that it's very difficult to get it right. If you don't get one part just perfect there is very little room to offset that disadvantage on the other parts.


Edited by Nonesuch, 26 September 2015 - 14:57.


#41 CoolBreeze

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:02

I thought this so called new generation hybrid were supposed to appeal to car manufacturers...oh wait..



#42 RedBaron

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:05

We desperately need VW in F1 now. In the past few days they've proved themselves to be exactly what F1 needs, they're made of the right stuff.



#43 Starish

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:05

Its sad, these engine rules were meant to attract manufacturers.. and it seems like they have scared them off. I don't expect teams like Toyota or BMW to back peddles so fast but other manufacturers who employ hybrid tech aren't even in the rumor mill.  TBH if i was a big manufacturer I wouldn't join either. seeing how hard the rules are trying to stop me from using the budget I have and how hard it is to improve the engine relative to the competition with the lack of testing and "tokens". 



#44 genius83

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:09

The first and foremost thing that FIA and Bernie should try to enforce is to try and separate the engine manufacturers from F1 teams i.e. one should not consider Ferrari as an engine manufacturer has competition from RedBull because that is not true. They have competition from Mercedes the engine manufacturer not the team, once they ensure that then solutions for all other demands by any teams including the two works teams Ferrari and Mercedes can be found.

 

As for RedBull, they should just take the year old Ferrari engine for the next season make the car around it even to the point that if necessary they should move away from their traditional route of tight rear end to increase cooling and they try to blow away the main Ferrari team next season with year old engine. The only reason RedBull wants the new Ferrari engine is based on just the hunch that that engine will be better the their 2015 version but what are the chances that this could not happen and the performance gain is not as much as they(RedBull) thinks and also could not be suitable for their chasis design.



#45 Jimisgod

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:14

yes, they do supply engines. however that is not all red bull wants, they demand exactly the same of everything ferrari uses, like mappings and fuel. :rolleyes:

 

I say: give them the exact same spec hardware, but go figure out fuel with total and mappings with their own tech guys.

 

Well that's fair, but what Ferrari wants is to supply their opposition with, say, sandals while they wear football boots.



#46 krea

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:17

Except Benetton in 1995?

 

Except like for the most time in the F1 history.



#47 anneomoly

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:29

It's a very strange sport, but perhaps it's generous to even call it that in the first place.

 

Most sports I follow have salary caps, or drafts.. equalising the competition year to year and keeping things fresh over time.  You have 'tanking' which is a bit of a drag but you also have cycles with teams rebuilding and coming back and teams at the top fighting to stay there.  Either way, there is a constant battle at the top that is ever evolving or changing.. and any number of teams that can win going into a season.  The teams that are financially sound are rewarded or even favoured, but only slightly so.. and it's more of a financial/profit reward rather than a performance advantage.

 

 

I'm going to have a wild guess and say that that's because you favour socialist American sports? Most sports outside North America tend to be distinctly more capitalist, and the rich get richer and the poor poorer.

 

Yes, this is ironic.

 

Except Benetton in 1995?

 

 

Except for them, yes. I doubt Renault or Williams meant that to happen and had the Benetton not been reliable it might not have.



#48 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:37

Why not introduce a second engine formula to attract new manufacturers and keep Mercedes happy at the same time?

 

Class Hybrid (same as today)

- hybrid, turbo

- massH = 702kg minimum weight

- flowH = 100kg/h fuel

- consumptionH = 100kg max

- powerH = average power between 10500 and 12000rpm of the best engine in this class

 

Class Classic

- NA engines

- flowC = f*flowH

- consumptionC = f*consumptionH

- powerC = 0,99*powerH

- f = 1,2 (can be adjusted to reach powerC for best engine in class)

- massC = massH - (consumptionC-consumptionH)/2


Edited by thegforcemaybewithyou, 26 September 2015 - 15:38.


#49 YoungGun

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:37

Well that's fair, but what Ferrari wants is to supply their opposition with, say, sandals while they wear football boots.

 

Newey can walk on water, so shoes are immaterial.   ;)



#50 KingTiger

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Posted 26 September 2015 - 15:40

All European sports are awfully run, unfortunately. It's nothing new, a bunch of short sighted people that only look at themselves. Ofcourse it is terrible for the sport when only 2 teams are allowed to choose who is competitive, Red Bulls whining is irrelevant. If a new squad decided to enter and invest in F1 they'd be blocked from winning just the same, even if they don't have whining cry babies for an owner and team principle.

Unfortunately the FIA is too weak and incompetent to do anything about it, and they are no different than the teams anyway. The only issue they've made a big deal about was collecting more $$$ from the drivers a few years back. Pathetic.
At the end of the day its only the fans who lose out, and there isn't an alternative for them to turn to.