44 replies to this topic

[dierome1987]

In light of Alonso's seemingly never-ending struggles with bad cars, I was wondering what other world champions have had to drive that many lemons during their careers (especially after clinching the championship).

 

Alonso is a pretty shocking case. Not even his championship winning cars were dominant machines! Instead, after becoming WDC, he's had to drive infamous dogs such as the hideous looking Renault R29 or the Ferrari F150 Italia (not to mention last year's apalling Ferrari F14T). Aside from Jacques Villeneuve, has any other world champion been that unlucky?

Edited by dierome1987, 26 September 2015 - 13:33.

[PayasYouRace]

Jenson Button's had more than his share of poor cars.

[robefc]

Alonso had what, 1 bad car out of 5 seasons at Ferrari?

He hasn't had a lot of dogs and took the WDC to the wire twice at Ferrari and should have won in 07.

That said, pretty painful that he could have been at Red Bull after he left Macca...

[SenorSjon]

The 1996 Ferrari Schumacher had was quite poor. The 2010-2012 Mercedes effort wasn't too great either. And of course WDC Hill getting into an Arrows was one of the worst. Villeneuve and BAR weren't a very good marriage at best.

[sopa]

Scheckter in 1980.

 

Alan Jones after his comeback.

 

J. Villeneuve in 1999.

 

Lauda and Hunt in 1979.

 

Fittipaldi in Copersucar.

[InSearchOfThe]

Damon Hill at Arrows. And Jordan.

[Rhardrks]

Alonso had what, 1 bad car out of 5 seasons at Ferrari?

He hasn't had a lot of dogs and took the WDC to the wire twice at Ferrari and should have won in 07.

That said, pretty painful that he could have been at Red Bull after he left Macca...

 

It is all relative, the Ferrari's were never the fastest cars and poor by Ferrari standards especially compared to Red Bull/McLaren over 2011-12.

Alonso's true dog cars are Mindardi, Renault 2009, Ferrari 2014 and McLaren 15. Important part being they were dogs over the entire season. Those are worse cars than Vettel or Hamilton have ever had over a season yet.

Alonso and Button are similar in many ways with the cars they have driven but Button had the dominant Brawn for 1 year. Alonso unlike Button/Hamilton/Vettel hasn't had a dominant car in a season yet with no opposition like the Brawn 09. Merc 14-15 or Redbull.

Edited by Rhardrks, 26 September 2015 - 13:43.

[Imperial]

Jenson Button's had more than his share of poor cars.

I think the OP means proper world champions though.








I'M KIDDING !!!!!!!!

[realracer200]

The 1996 Ferrari Schumacher had was quite poor.

 

It depends on how one defines "quite poor". Schumacher had 3 wins, numerious podiums and finished third in the championship in 1996. That's hardly "quite poor".

[Rhardrks]

It depends on how one defines "quite poor". Schumacher had 3 wins, numerious podiums and finished third in the championship in 1996. That's hardly "quite poor".

 

It was the 2nd best car of the year, in a year when Ferrari had a much, much larger budget than Wiliiams (and any other  team).

[Rob G]

Phil Hill, ATS, 1963. What a horrible piece of crap that thing was.

[George Costanza]

It depends on how one defines "quite poor". Schumacher had 3 wins, numerious podiums and finished third in the championship in 1996. That's hardly "quite poor".

 

Yet from 1991-1995, Ferrari only won twice....

 

I would argue the 1995 Ferrari was better than the '96 one.... Look where Eddie Irvine finished in 1996.... compare his results in 1997-1998-1999.

 

But Eddie's worse car would be 2000 Jaguar R1. Yuck.

Edited by George Costanza, 26 September 2015 - 14:57.

[chunder27]

Rosberg in the awful Honda in 83!  How on earth he won in Dallas God knows!

 

Piquet in the Lotus in 88, nowhere near a win. But Nelsons bank was happy.

 

Mario inthe Lotus wing thing in 1979 too?  Was an abysmal car

[CoolBreeze]

It depends on how one defines "quite poor". Schumacher had 3 wins, numerious podiums and finished third in the championship in 1996. That's hardly "quite poor".

That was because of his never ending test and pushing the team to the limit. I really doubt anyone else could have even gotten a win with that car. 

[Starish]

Jenson Button's had more than his share of poor cars.

He wasn't a WC in most of those cars. Since becoming a WDC he had maybe 2 BAD cars... arguably even one. 

[SenorSjon]

It depends on how one defines "quite poor". Schumacher had 3 wins, numerious podiums and finished third in the championship in 1996. That's hardly "quite poor".

Well, its low point was its engine blowing up on the warmup lap in France 1996. That was abysmal. It was made of glass I guess. And it was in an era a driver could make a difference and needed to push. He commented on it in his second career stating current cars allow only a few tenths difference between drivers, not whole seconds like it was.

 

Perhaps Senna in 1992? He won 1991 and was blown away a year later. 

 

Edit: I also remember the 2009 McLaren being piss poor the first half of the season. A bit like they are now.

Edited by SenorSjon, 26 September 2015 - 15:24.

[PayasYouRace]

Damon Hill at Arrows. And Jordan.

Both of which were rocket ships compared to his Brabham. Now that was a bad car!

[Rob]

Phil Hill, ATS, 1963. What a horrible piece of crap that thing was.

 

I think we've found the winner.

[DampMongoose]

Graham Hill's final few seasons were in some poor stuff.

Edit: failure to read.

Edited by DampMongoose, 26 September 2015 - 15:33.

[AustinF1]

It is all relative, the Ferrari's were never the fastest cars and poor by Ferrari standards especially compared to Red Bull/McLaren over 2011-12.

Alonso's true dog cars are Mindardi, Renault 2009, Ferrari 2014 and McLaren 15. Important part being they were dogs over the entire season. Those are worse cars than Vettel or Hamilton have ever had over a season yet.

Alonso and Button are similar in many ways with the cars they have driven but Button had the dominant Brawn for 1 year. Alonso unlike Button/Hamilton/Vettel hasn't had a dominant car in a season yet with no opposition like the Brawn 09. Merc 14-15 or Redbull.

Hammer, meet nail.

[PlatenGlass]

While Alonso was driving these "bad" Ferraris, from 2010 to 2012 a certain Michael Schumacher was driving a Mercedes that was far worse - which was also unlucky in the sense that Mercedes had come out of Brawn which was the world champion team.

Also, while Alonso hasn't had dominant cars (arguably his 2005 Renault was, based on both speed and reliability), he's had a car that's a had a shot of the title in five years - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2010, 2012. That's not exactly too bad even if other people have had better. (2012 wasn't because he was God for a year before anyone says it.) Is it better to have that or, for example, a totally dominant car for a couple of seasons?

Edited by PlatenGlass, 26 September 2015 - 15:45.

[topical]

While Alonso was driving these "bad" Ferraris, from 2010 to 2012 a certain Michael Schumacher was driving a Mercedes that was far worse - which was also unlucky in the sense that Mercedes had come out of Brawn which was the world champion team.

 

Yeah, but that was old Schumacher. The "real" Michael Schumacher retired in 2006.

 

As for Alonso, he's had some dogs of cars, but the argument could be turned round to say he won two WDCs in a Renault, and at both McLaren (1 year) and Ferrari (2 years out of 5) had cars that got within a whisker of the WDC. That he didn't win was sometimes the team's fault, sometimes his own, sometimes a combination of both. But he could very well have been a 5 times WDC with 3 different teams and then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

What he's admittedly never had is an utterly dominant car that let him cruise to the champioship, as MS had in 2002 and 2004, Vettel in 2011 and 2013, Hamilton in 2014 and 2015. But is it any coincidence that those seasons, while they make for impressive statistics, go down as some of the most boring in F1 history? Alonso will be remembered for 2006 and 2012, Hamilton's defining race will always be Brazil 2008 plus the wet weather drives, and Prost is remembered for 88-90, not 1993, etc. And as for Vettel, frankly he's impressed me this year arguably more than in any of his title years, even though he won't finish champion.

Edited by topical, 26 September 2015 - 15:54.

[Kalmake]

James Hunt's half-season with Wolf.

[Andretti Fan]

Fittipaldi's "insane" move to Copersucar in 1976.

[Disgrace]

Phil Hill, ATS, 1963. What a horrible piece of crap that thing was.

 

Please explain for the unenlightened such as myself.

[sabjit]

I concur with the request of Disgrace, not all of us are old enough to remember 1963 XD

[Henri Greuter]

Rosberg in the awful Honda in 83!  How on earth he won in Dallas God knows!

 

Piquet in the Lotus in 88, nowhere near a win. But Nelsons bank was happy.

 

Mario inthe Lotus wing thing in 1979 too?  Was an abysmal car

 

Rosberg had a Honda powered car for only two races in '83, the two last races. Before that he had the cosworth powered FW08B, still good enough to win at Monaco, though with with lots of luck coming to his aid.

He won Dallas in '84.

 

Apologies for knitpicking.........

 

Henri

[sennafan24]

I don't think you can define a car that is mid-upper tier as a "bad car". So that would disqualify the 1996 Ferrari, 1992 McLaren and the 2010-2012 Mercedes. Lewis had a bad car for the first half of 2009, but McLaren developed well for the 2nd half, so that can't be included.

 

Alonso and Jenson have a real banger this year, I think that is the standard bearer of recent times. Although just checking Wiki, J.V had a rotten year in the 1999 BAR.

[4Wheeldrift]

If OP means a current WDC who the next season has to race a poorer car than their title year, then i think:-

 

 

Senna 1992 McLaren

MSC in 1996 Ferrari

Hill in 1997 Arrows

Villenueve in the 1998 Williams

MSC in 2005 Ferrari

HAM in 2009 McLaren

VET 2014 Red Bull

 

some of this is clearly relative though.

[Marklar]

World Champions and their seasons in cars without the team winning any race

Fangio: Maserati (1958)
Ascari: Ferrari (1950), Lancia (1955)
Hawthorn: Cooper (1952), Ferrari (1957)
Brabham: Cooper (1955, 1957, 1961), Brabham (1962, 1963, 1965, 1968)
P. Hill: Ferrari (1962), ATS (1963), Cooper (1964)
G. Hill: Lotus (1958, 1959), BRM (1960, 1961), Brabham (1971, 1972), Lola/Hill (1973, 1974, 1975)
Clark: -
Surtees: Lola (1962), Ferrari (1965), Honda (1968), BRM (1969), Surtess (1970, 1971)
Hulme: Brabham (1965), McLaren (1970, 1971)
Stewart: BRM (1967)
Rindt: Cooper (1965), Brabham (1968)
Fittipaldi: Lotus (1971), Copersucar/Fittipaldi (1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980)
Lauda: March (1971, 1972), BRM (1973), Brabham (1979)
Hunt: March (1973, 1974), McLaren (1978), Wolf (1979)
Andretti: Parnelli (1974, 1975), Lotus (1979, 1980), Alfa Romeo (1981)
Scheckter: Wolf (1978), Ferrari (1980)
Jones: Surtess (1976), Williams (1978), Arrows (1983), Lola (1985, 1986)
Piquet: Ensign (1978), Brabham (1979), Lotus (1988, 1989)
Rosberg: Theodore/ATS (1978), Wolf (1979), Fittipaldi (1980, 1981)
Prost: McLaren (1980), Ferrari (1991)
Senna: Toleman (1984)
Mansell: Lotus (1980, 1981, 1983, 1984), Williams (1988), McLaren (1995)
Schumacher: Mercedes (2010, 2011)
D. Hill: Brabham (1992), Arrows (1997)
Villeneuve: Williams (1998), BAR (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003), Sauber (2005), BMW (2006)
Häkkinen: Lotus (1991, 1992), McLaren (1994, 1995, 1996)
Alonso: Minardi (2001), Renault (2009), Ferrari (2014), McLaren (2015)
Raikkonen: Sauber (2001), McLaren (2006), Ferrari (2014)
Hamilton: -
Button: Williams (2000), Benetton (2001), Renault (2002), BAR (2003, 2004, 2005), Honda (2007 2008), McLaren (2013, 2014, 2015)
Vettel: BMW/STR (2007)

I dont guarantee that everything is correct

Edited by Marklar, 28 September 2015 - 07:10.

[KavB]

It is pretty crazy that Hamilton has had a winning car in every season he has competed. The only time he didn't was the first half of 2009 when the car was really bad.

[Spillage]

World Champions and their seasons in cars without the team winning any race

 

Fangio: Maserati (1958)

Ascari: Ferrari (1950), Lancia (1955)

Hawthorn: Cooper (1952), Ferrari (1957)

Brabham: Cooper (1955, 1957, 1961), Brabham (1962, 1963, 1965, 1968)

P. Hill: Ferrari (1962), ATS (1963), Cooper (1964)

G. Hill: Lotus (1958, 1959), BRM (1960, 1961), Brabham (1971, 1972), Lola/Hill (1973, 1974, 1975)

Clark: -

Surtees: Lola (1962), Ferrari (1965), Honda (1968), BRM (1969), Surtess (1970, 1971)

Hulme: Brabham (1965), McLaren (1970, 1971)

Stewart: BRM (1971)

Rindt: Cooper (1965), Brabham (1968)

Fittipaldi: Lotus (1971), Copersucar/Fittipaldi (1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980)

Lauda: March (1971, 1972), BRM (1973), Brabham (1979)

Hunt: March (1973, 1974), McLaren (1978), Wolf (1979)

Andretti: Parnelli (1974, 1975), Lotus (1979, 1980), Alfa Romeo (1981)

Scheckter: Wolf (1978), Ferrari (1980)

Jones: Surtess (1976), Williams (1978), Arrows (1983), Lola (1985, 1986)

Piquet: Ensign (1978), Brabham (1979), Lotus (1988, 1989)

Rosberg: Theodore/ATS (1978), Wolf (1979), Fittipaldi (1980, 1981)

Prost: McLaren (1980), Ferrari (1991)

Senna: Toleman (1984)

Mansell: Lotus (1980, 1981, 1983, 1984), Williams (1988), McLaren (1995)

Schumacher: Mercedes (2010, 2011)

D. Hill: Brabham (1992), Arrows (1997)

Villeneuve: Williams (1998), BAR (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003), Sauber (2005), BMW (2006)

Häkkinen: Lotus (1991, 1992), McLaren (1994, 1995, 1996)

Alonso: Minardi (2001), Renault (2009), Ferrari (2014), McLaren (2015)

Raikkonen: Sauber (2001), McLaren (2006), Ferrari (2014)

Hamilton: -

Button: Williams (2000), Benetton (2001), Renault (2002), BAR (2003-2005), Honda (2007-2008), McLaren (2013-2015)

Vettel: BMW/STR (2007)

 

I dont guarantee that everything is correct

Nice work   The only quibble I can think of is that Clark drove a handful of Championship races for Lotus in 1960. The Lotus team didn't win any championship races that year, though Stirling Moss did win a couple in a customer Lotus chassis run by Rob Walker (and might have won the title had he not been injured for most of the year). So that doesn't really count as a 'bad car' anyway.

 

EDIT: In similar vein, STP entered Mario Andretti for five F1 races in 1970. This was a one-car team so naturally, they won no races. As above, though, the March 701 was a race-winning car in 1970, Jackie Stewart winning in one at the Spanish Grand Prix.

Edited by Spillage, 26 September 2015 - 18:29.

[Otaku]

Define "bad car". Is it midfield? At the back? Was the 92 McLaren a "bad" car for example?

[Atreiu]

In light of Alonso's seemingly never-ending struggles with bad cars, I was wondering what other world champions have had to drive that many lemons during their careers (especially after clinching the championship).

 

Alonso is a pretty shocking case. Not even his championship winning cars were dominant machines! Instead, after becoming WDC, he's had to drive infamous dogs such as the hideous looking Renault R29 or the Ferrari F150 Italia (not to mention last year's apalling Ferrari F14T). Aside from Jacques Villeneuve, has any other world champion been that unlucky?

 

This is like a huge can of worms... Both for the definition of bad cars and also the characterization of Alonso's struggles and 'bad luck'.

Edited by Atreiu, 26 September 2015 - 18:31.

[MP422]

It is pretty crazy that Hamilton has had a winning car in every season he has competed. The only time he didn't was the first half of 2009 when the car was really bad.

 

Dude know's how to wheel !!

[BillBald]

I concur with the request of Disgrace, not all of us are old enough to remember 1963 XD

 

And some of us are too old...

[Rob G]

Please explain for the unenlightened such as myself.

Hill won the championship in 1961 for Ferrari and stayed with the team the next year. But 1962 was a horrible year for Ferrari, and a significant portion of the team's brain trust left to set up ATS. Despite the people involved, the ATS F1 car was a failure. The cars were slow and poorly finished, and they required so much bracing that the chassis had to be cut apart with a hacksaw before the engine could be removed!

[RealRacing]

This is like a huge can of worms... Both for the definition of bad cars and also the characterization of Alonso's struggles and 'bad luck'.

Agree. A much simpler enterprise would be who of the mentioned drivers was the best at talking their car down to implicitly talk themselves up.

[ensign14]

Rosberg in the awful Honda in 83!  How on earth he won in Dallas God knows!

 

 

 

'84.  Williams got out-turboed in 1983, but the car was still good enough to win Monaco and Long Beach, and probably Detroit.  Keke got a bit impatient at the Beach.

[Graveltrappen]

It is pretty crazy that Hamilton has had a winning car in every season he has competed. The only time he didn't was the first half of 2009 when the car was really bad.

Vettel is the same also is he not? And he's won for every team he's raced for. He and HAM have the same amount of wins too...

[Glengavel]

World Champions and their seasons in cars without the team winning any race

 

Fangio: Maserati (1958)

Ascari: Ferrari (1950), Lancia (1955)

Hawthorn: Cooper (1952), Ferrari (1957)

Brabham: Cooper (1955, 1957, 1961), Brabham (1962, 1963, 1965, 1968)

P. Hill: Ferrari (1962), ATS (1963), Cooper (1964)

G. Hill: Lotus (1958, 1959), BRM (1960, 1961), Brabham (1971, 1972), Lola/Hill (1973, 1974, 1975)

Clark: -

Surtees: Lola (1962), Ferrari (1965), Honda (1968), BRM (1969), Surtess (1970, 1971)

Hulme: Brabham (1965), McLaren (1970, 1971)

Stewart: BRM (1971)

Rindt: Cooper (1965), Brabham (1968)

Fittipaldi: Lotus (1971), Copersucar/Fittipaldi (1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980)

Lauda: March (1971, 1972), BRM (1973), Brabham (1979)

Hunt: March (1973, 1974), McLaren (1978), Wolf (1979)

Andretti: Parnelli (1974, 1975), Lotus (1979, 1980), Alfa Romeo (1981)

Scheckter: Wolf (1978), Ferrari (1980)

Jones: Surtess (1976), Williams (1978), Arrows (1983), Lola (1985, 1986)

Piquet: Ensign (1978), Brabham (1979), Lotus (1988, 1989)

Rosberg: Theodore/ATS (1978), Wolf (1979), Fittipaldi (1980, 1981)

Prost: McLaren (1980), Ferrari (1991)

Senna: Toleman (1984)

Mansell: Lotus (1980, 1981, 1983, 1984), Williams (1988), McLaren (1995)

Schumacher: Mercedes (2010, 2011)

D. Hill: Brabham (1992), Arrows (1997)

Villeneuve: Williams (1998), BAR (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003), Sauber (2005), BMW (2006)

Häkkinen: Lotus (1991, 1992), McLaren (1994, 1995, 1996)

Alonso: Minardi (2001), Renault (2009), Ferrari (2014), McLaren (2015)

Raikkonen: Sauber (2001), McLaren (2006), Ferrari (2014)

Hamilton: -

Button: Williams (2000), Benetton (2001), Renault (2002), BAR (2003-2005), Honda (2007-2008), McLaren (2013-2015)

Vettel: BMW/STR (2007)

 

I dont guarantee that everything is correct

 

Stewart BRM 1971 should be 1967?

[Marklar]

Stewart BRM 1971 should be 1967?

Correct

[Graveltrappen]

Correct

Vettel won at Monza in the STR did he not?

[Marklar]

Vettel won at Monza in the STR did he not?

not in 2007, he won in 2008

[velgajski1]

In light of Alonso's seemingly never-ending struggles with bad cars, I was wondering what other world champions have had to drive that many lemons during their careers (especially after clinching the championship).

 

Alonso is a pretty shocking case. Not even his championship winning cars were dominant machines! Instead, after becoming WDC, he's had to drive infamous dogs such as the hideous looking Renault R29 or the Ferrari F150 Italia (not to mention last year's apalling Ferrari F14T). Aside from Jacques Villeneuve, has any other world champion been that unlucky?

 

I would not say it was a case of bad luck in Alonso case. He mostly brought it on himself by his decisions - left McLaren that was a top car for Renault and then left Ferrari (most consistent team in terms of producing winning cars over last 15+ seasons) for McLaren that just partnered with Honda. I think it was pretty obvious that new engine is not magically gonna beat everyone in first season.

 

As you can see on Marklar list, there was plenty of WDC's that had to race in bad cars. Button for example had 3 dog (non-winning) cars after becoming WDC - same number as Alonso had.

Edited by velgajski1, 28 September 2015 - 07:19.