60 replies to this topic

[Atreiu]

50l of fuel per race, 550kg minimum weight, no Q specials, etc.

 

That's it.

[Gyno]

I think there is some sort of belief that if Cosworth were an engine supplier again they would provide engines at a lower cost than any of the manufacturers. However, people seem to have not realised that as Cosworth is an engineering business, not a car manufacturer, they simply do not have the money themselves to put towards a modern-day engine programme for Formula One. They'll likely want to rejoin F1 and make one of course, but someone will have to be picking up the bill, and if you're wanting an open development formula with V10s or whatever, the manufacturers with large budgets to subsidise the engines could provide them to customers at a fraction of the cost.

 

Now a spec engine sure, Cosworth could provide a cheaper V10, but well I don't think many people would want that.

 

 

So you would be happy then if they all decided to use four-cylinder turbo hybrids? And they easily outpace this standard engine you've got Cosworth to provide? 

 

Since you were talking so much about big V10s and free engine choice, I don't want you to be disappointed when your rules mean they'll never appear.

If that's what they wanna run then so be it.

 

I doubt Anyone would run 4 cylinder engines.

Most if not all would run V8s

[whitewaterMkII]

First of all: going back in time to the V10 doesn't solve a number of issues right now in F1 of which the origins can be found in the era of the V10 because they came into existance because of the V10 performances and have evolved over time well into and over the V8 and current V6 period. Few seem to keep an eye on that other than the blind eye because of that obsession with the V10 noise that needs to come back no matter what.

 

But....

 

This isn't the first post I read in which there is talk about bringing back the V10 and naming Cosworth.

 

Why oh why o why is it that just about every time the begging and insisting for V10s back just about everyone wants that Cosworth and speaks about the Cosworth and does not ask for all the other V10s that once were? WHY COSWORTH and primarily COSWORTH ????  Do people out here have shares and stakes in Cosworth or so?

Or is it because they are the ones that had no factory involvement?

 

Well

If it has to be V10 but also non factory V10 can I then list another long forgotten option?

The Hart V10.....

 

Henri

I think the cosworth thing is just there because of the 70's when they supplied everyone but Ferrari. Yes there were tweaked factory Cosworths, yes the Cosworth was not a sealed unit engine, you could hire your own tuners, and they could buy and install the latest factory bits. And most of all, Cosworth DFVs in particular were able to win across the spectrum, with multiple teams per year. 

Cosworth just seems to be foremost in peoples minds as a come and get it manufacturer.

It seems to me that perhaps the only solution to making equal engines accessible to all the teams fairly is to ban works teams from selling engines at all, considering they won't provide equal engines to others. Therefore Cosworth comes immediately to mind when it comes to a supplier that can supply all the other teams with competitive engines with an openhanded approach. If F1 goes that way, the next screeching that will be heard will be the works teams (other than Ferrari) threatening to leave since they will be numerically outnumbered by a herd of Cossies that will have thousands of more miles to be analyzed and improved upon.

Depending on Hondas deal with McLaren, they could also get into the mass supplier arena as well, they have been doing a good job providing equalized engines to the url for many many years.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

Now a spec engine sure, Cosworth could provide a cheaper V10, but well I don't think many people would want that.

 

 

A spec engine would be just fine for the Red Bull Grand Prix world series.   

[V8 Fireworks]

50l of fuel per race, 550kg minimum weight, no Q specials, etc.

 

That's it.

 

THAT would provide true innovation!       

 

But it's all too hard, and involves the big picture, instead of 0.1% tweaks that don't risk turning the running order upside down... so F1 teams would never agree. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 September 2015 - 18:15.

[Henri Greuter]

Did you ever hear a Hart V10 in person? I liked the V10s, but not that one. It sounded like imminent failure when off throttle, just crackling with this awful note when I heard it in the back of the '99 Arrows. I'd prefer the Merc V10 from '00-'01 with their unique exhaust config that gave it a shriek, if we're picking engines. I have no particularly fond or negative impression of the Cosworth V10 of that era, just that it never had anything unique to its wail.

 

 

I never heard a Hart V10 in real. And I decline "that pleasure" with pleasure, thank you. (Like I do with just about every pre 1992 F1 V10)

 

But since there is an almost unanimous outcry against factory engines (Even if they were those `hallowed` V10s!!!), if there was one engine builder who was the real David who dared to challenge the Goliaths (=Factory engines), then it was Brian Hart.

He should be the kind of builder that should appeal to all of those V10-Yes, Factory V10-No fans.

 

Even the heralded Cosworth company (Why herald them?) was a commercial enterprise who did a lot of their works with others picking up the bills for the right to have their name on the cam cover of whatever they produced, Ford in particular. But remember the early 80s Mercedes 190 2.3-16?  Cosworth cylinder heads. If I remember well, I vageuely remember that even the Opel Ascona 400 used Cosworth heads.....

 

Henri

[Gyno]

50l of fuel per race, 550kg minimum weight, no Q specials, etc.

 

That's it.

 

Sure if the race is only 20 min long.

[Henri Greuter]

50l of fuel per race, 550kg minimum weight, no Q specials, etc.

 

That's it.

 

 

That weight is too low to my liking (unsafe flimsy constructions enhancing) but the 50 liters sounds great.

 

But....

 

If  you know how many over here cry fool about the not powerful and thus not fast enough cars because of only 100 kg = some 138 kg fuel permitted? If the V10 fans hear that? Their beloved bellowing eardrum rippers required at least 200 if not 250 liter and more to finish a race! No way such a thing could make the race distance on 50 liters....

I don't mind that limit, fine with me. But I fear that you and I will be the only supporters....

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 30 September 2015 - 18:46.

[Atreiu]

Engineers love challenges.

Set certain safety requirements and don't deviate, tell them to get it done with limited fuel and serious weight considerations.

;)

[V8 Fireworks]

 

But since there is an almost unanimous outcry against factory engines (Even if they were those `hallowed` V10s!!!), if there was one engine builder who was the real David who dared to challenge the Goliaths (=Factory engines), then it was Brian Hart.

He should be the kind of builder that should appeal to all of those V10-Yes, Factory V10-No fans.

 

 

 I am confused...  What is the difference between Hart and Judd 

 

Oh I see, Arrows used the Judd/Yamaha engine in 1997 but the Hart engine in 1998.  So they are different and unrelated engines?

 

Does the Hart engine company still exist?  By contrast, the Judd company still exists so it would be easier for Judd to supply the breakaway red bull series with a reproduced version of their V10.

 

Maybe the pricing would be more competitive compared to Cosworth?  Cosworth stuff tends to be pricey.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 September 2015 - 22:09.

[Fastcake]

A spec engine would be just fine for the Red Bull Grand Prix world series.   

 

Well at least you'd be happy with that. I doubt many here want yet another spec series, however.

 

50l of fuel per race, 550kg minimum weight, no Q specials, etc.

 

That's it.

 

I'd like that sort of formula in an ideal world, with the freedom to make whatever you think would be the best engine to finish a Grand Prix on that fuel load. I do think that your allocated fuel is a little too low for now however. The current engines which are far more efficient than any previously seen in F1 have 100kg of fuel and even then you've got a fair amount of fuel saving.