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Renault F1 team 80s


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#51 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 09:14

You simply add a 1.5 litre engine into the loop to get useful output.


By that argument a carburettor is an engine, too.

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#52 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 21:30

A couple of pictures of the 1985 Renault RE60:

estoril2b85.jpg

9a14a920062ab0db094134541d57b5aa.jpg

#53 Mohican

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 08:36

Slightly off topic, I always thought that the sleeping-with-the boss'-wife was the reason that Arnoux got kicked out of Ferrari rather than anything to do with Prost.

The latter always struck me as far too calculating to have ever done anything so rash, whereas Arnoux could be relied upon to do the strangest things - which is why I always liked him better.

 

Anyway, I also think that this thread has overlooked the part played by Jean-Pierre Jabouille - who was a good driver, and who persevered with the project when others would not have. Why he switched to Talbot/ligier was always a bit of a mystery. But the Renault team's inherent Frenchness diluted over time, with drivers like Cheever and Warwick.

 

Finally, what was the name of the team principal brought in to replace Gerard Larousse ? The name escapes me right now, but I remember him as a subject of ridicule by the British media at the time.

The fact that Larousse went on to found and run his own team reasonably successfully for several years also tells me that Renault made a mistake getting rid of him.



#54 Tim Murray

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 09:02

Finally, what was the name of the team principal brought in to replace Gerard Larousse ? The name escapes me right now, but I remember him as a subject of ridicule by the British media at the time.


His name was Gerard Toth. He came from the Renault quality department and had absolutely no experience in motor sport. By all accounts his arrogance made him very unpopular in a very short time, and he later went to prison for appropriating for his own use funds apparently paid by Tyrrell for their Renault engines. There's an earlier thread on him:

Gerard Toth

Edited by Tim Murray, 05 October 2015 - 09:03.


#55 Peter Morley

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 09:51

In this period a friend who was running a racing team had collected a can of toluene for use in the race cars, en-route he collected a passenger who was also connected with motor racing and more importantly had some knowledge of chemicals, when he heard there was a can of toluene in the back of the car he got out immediately (at a roundabout) and refused to get back in the car...

Apparently some of the turbo cars (not sure what formula) ran on something like 80% toluene - which was presumably rather hazardous.



#56 Catalina Park

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 10:17

In this period a friend who was running a racing team had collected a can of toluene for use in the race cars, en-route he collected a passenger who was also connected with motor racing and more importantly had some knowledge of chemicals, when he heard there was a can of toluene in the back of the car he got out immediately (at a roundabout) and refused to get back in the car...

Apparently some of the turbo cars (not sure what formula) ran on something like 80% toluene - which was presumably rather hazardous.

So I should be worried about the can of toluene in the shed then? 

A lot of unleaded fuel in Australia is high in toluene, the exhaust smells like paint thinners when the motor is cold.


Edited by Catalina Park, 06 October 2015 - 10:18.


#57 PeterElleray

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 10:47

Not sure about the can in the shed, but Peter's story about the can in the boot rings lots of bells... I've posted elsewhere that none of the BMW personnel i came into contact with were at all keen to get anywhere near their own fuel, to the extent that on one occassion, i think this was in Mexico in 1986, they evacuated behind the pit garage when the engines were started up, leaving just the one engineer with the car, along with the inevitable laptop. I'm not sure what was in the fuel on that occassion to create the problem, it certainly wasnt reflected in the car's performance.



#58 kayemod

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 10:59

Not sure about the can in the shed, but Peter's story about the can in the boot rings lots of bells... I've posted elsewhere that none of the BMW personnel i came into contact with were at all keen to get anywhere near their own fuel, to the extent that on one occassion, i think this was in Mexico in 1986, they evacuated behind the pit garage when the engines were started up, leaving just the one engineer with the car, along with the inevitable laptop. I'm not sure what was in the fuel on that occassion to create the problem, it certainly wasnt reflected in the car's performance.

 

I've heard similar stories, not sure how true it is, but I was told that the exhaust fumes from the burned stuff are carcinogenic. Wouldn't have thought the fuel itself was as much of a problem unless you inhaled deeply or got it on your skin, but there's a very obvious fire risk.



#59 PeterElleray

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 11:32

Well, all i can say is that some team members were later diagnosed with Hepatitis, and whilst you can't directly connect it to the rocket fuel, you do wonder. I think you are right about the main concern being the exhaust fumes, that was definately what prompted the mass evacuation of BMW personnel to a place where they felt at minimal risk from their own engine, and yes, the general procedure was don't breath the fumes in from the drum and whatever you do dont touch it! None of this is invented or elaborated in any way, and i've never been involved in any other race programme where the fuel had everybody 'spooked', except perhaps the Methanol we used in CART, and i think a lot of that was the invisible flame thing.



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#60 JacnGille

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 14:51

Am I remembering correctly a picture of the BMW crew in protective gear (respirators and other things) while standings next to 55 gallon drums of what the caption said was race fuel?



#61 PeterElleray

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 15:15

That was probably at Brabham, our lot just ran away as described...



#62 JacnGille

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 00:26

Sorry, yes, I meant the Brabham crew.



#63 E1pix

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:26

So I should be worried about the can of toluene in the shed then?

Toluene is closely linked with xylene, which I used to use to clean my sign painting brushes -- and store by the gallon. It's very nasty stuff but as long as you keep it in a metal can, totally sealed, and cool, you should be okay. Emphasis on "should." :-)

To make you really comfortable, I believe toluene is one of the "T's" in TNT.

#64 Wirra

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:14

9a14a920062ab0db094134541d57b5aa.jpg

 

Is that a reference to Alain Prost? I understood he was always keen to plat a puss!



#65 Wirra

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:39

A few snaps from '81.

 

001_zpswn6lbtte.jpg

 

005_zpsoe1xzbr0.jpg

 

006_zpstw27cjdt.jpg

 

003_zpsqduh1wtu.jpg

 

004a_zpstgh5rabp.jpg



#66 jcbc3

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 06:14

Is that Toto Wolff in the second picture?

#67 Otto Grabe

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 08:58

At the age of 9... :cool: 



#68 kayemod

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 09:02

Is that Toto Wolff in the second picture?

 

Have to agree with Otto, "Nein!"



#69 taran

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 11:30

Slightly off topic, I always thought that the sleeping-with-the boss'-wife was the reason that Arnoux got kicked out of Ferrari rather than anything to do with Prost.

The latter always struck me as far too calculating to have ever done anything so rash, whereas Arnoux could be relied upon to do the strangest things - which is why I always liked him better.

 

Anyway, I also think that this thread has overlooked the part played by Jean-Pierre Jabouille - who was a good driver, and who persevered with the project when others would not have. Why he switched to Talbot/ligier was always a bit of a mystery. But the Renault team's inherent Frenchness diluted over time, with drivers like Cheever and Warwick.

 

Finally, what was the name of the team principal brought in to replace Gerard Larousse ? The name escapes me right now, but I remember him as a subject of ridicule by the British media at the time.

The fact that Larousse went on to found and run his own team reasonably successfully for several years also tells me that Renault made a mistake getting rid of him.

 

Allegedly, Arnoux was sacked because he was courting Piero Lardi's underage daughter. Or because he was using cocaine. Take your pick.

 

Prost had quite a reputation for screwing around. His boss' wife, Princess Stephanie of Monaco and Jacques Laffite's wife for example. The latter was his best friend.....tells you something about Prost' character I suppose....

 

As to Jabouille leaving Renault, he was eclipsed by Arnoux in 1980 and Renault needed to make place for Alain Prost, so Jabouille was the logical choice to leave.



#70 Charlieman

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 16:16

'Was it delivered in a sealed barrel?' - give me a break...

I was pushing for a fuller story, Peter. I didn't believe that BMW's fuel supplier had pulled such a fast con job and accept your explanation.

 

Edit for spelling. 


Edited by Charlieman, 08 October 2015 - 16:20.


#71 Charlieman

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 16:28

In this period a friend who was running a racing team had collected a can of toluene for use in the race cars, en-route he collected a passenger who was also connected with motor racing and more importantly had some knowledge of chemicals, when he heard there was a can of toluene in the back of the car he got out immediately (at a roundabout) and refused to get back in the car...

Apparently some of the turbo cars (not sure what formula) ran on something like 80% toluene - which was presumably rather hazardous.

Divers who carry oxygen cylinders in the car have a sticker to warn rescue workers. Carrying a can of toluene does not carry the same explosive consequences, but it needs to be transported "double wrapped. Toluene, under the skin, is poisonous.



#72 BRG

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 17:04

 

Prost had quite a reputation for screwing around. His boss' wife, Princess Stephanie of Monaco and Jacques Laffite's wife for example. The latter was his best friend.....tells you something about Prost' character I suppose...

 

Prost is a Frenchman of his generation.  He would have been considered a bit peculiar if he WASN'T screwing his best friend's wife.



#73 kayemod

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 17:33

This is from Wikipedia, so not necessarily 100% reliable, but interesting all the same, did teams really run on such high percentages of the stuff?

 

Toluene can be used as an octane booster in gasoline fuels used in internal combustion engines. Toluene at 86% by volume fuelled all the turbo Formula 1 teams in the 1980s, first pioneered by the Honda team. The remaining 14% was a "filler" of n-heptane, to reduce the octane to meet Formula 1 fuel restrictions. Toluene at 100% can be used as a fuel for both two-stroke and four-stroke engines; however, due to the density of the fuel and other factors, the fuel does not vaporise easily unless preheated to 70 degrees Celsius (Honda accomplished this in their Formula 1 cars by routing the fuel lines through the muffler system to heat the fuel).

In Australia, in 2003, toluene was found to have been illegally combined with petrol in fuel outlets for sale as standard vehicular fuel. Toluene attracts no fuel excise, whereas other fuels are taxed at over 40%, so fuel suppliers are able to profit from substituting the cheaper toluene for petrol. The extent of toluene substitution has not been determined.[19][20]

Toluene is another in a group of fuels that have recently been used as components for jet fuel surrogate blends.[21] Toluene is used as a jet fuel surrogate for its content of aromatic compounds.

 

A pharmacist friend has told me that the greatest danger to anyone exposed to the stuff is neurological damage from inhalation, but of course there are risks from skin contact etc as well.



#74 blackmme

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 19:29

Prost had quite a reputation for screwing around. His boss' wife, Princess Stephanie of Monaco and Jacques Laffite's wife for example. The latter was his best friend.....tells you something about Prost' character I suppose....


I have read Nigel Roebucks missives on St Alain of Saint-Chamond and I refuse to believe such scurrilous rumours or for that matter anything related to funds 'resting' in his account prior to Prost Grand Prix going belly up!

Alain IS A SAINT!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards Mike

#75 Peter Morley

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 15:17

Max Mosley's autobiography (which I'm only part way through but finding very interesting/easy to read and well worth a tenner from Amazon) says:

 

Rsoche's department at BMW heard of an old fuel formula in the archives of a German company that had been developed in WW2 when Germany was short of lead.

Being lead free it complied with the F1 octane rules but behaved as if it didn't.

It had been formulated for a very high performance engine and was ideal for a turbo engine.

It was rumoured that the original wartime tech. spec. was still marked Top Secret.

It gave an instant increase of nearly 100 Hp.



#76 philippe7

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 22:37

I didn't think the Renault engine was based on a production engine.  They did have a 90º V6 (a joint development with Peugeot and Volvo) but there was no connection with the racing engine that I know of.

 

 

I don't know and I do not profess to know, Roger. It's muddied further because the F2 regulations were changed to allow raw racing engines. A guess is that the "production engine" might have appeared in a Gordini or Alpine. Renault made nifty ralliers.

 

I'm a bit late on that, but just for the record, Roger is absolutely right . The 2 liter V6 was a "pure racing engine", designed and built in the Gordini workshops, which had nothing in common with the production "PRV" V6 seem in the Peugeot 604 or Renault 30 saloons for instance. It started its life in the A441 Alpine Renault 2 liter sportscar , then indeed found its way into F2 when pure racing engines were allowed, then a larger 2.4 liter version was built and turbocharged for the A442 Alpine which raced in the sportscars championship (and won Le Mans), and finally the capacity was reduced to 1500cc for the F 1 challenge.

 

Renault did use production-based (1300 or 1600cc in-line 4) engines for various racing projects ( Alpine F3 or A210 endurance model for instance) but that was at an earlier time ( late 60's, early 70's ). 

 

And to be complete there also was the unsuccessful first 3 liter-V8 built by Amédée Gordini circa 1968, overweight and underpowered, which was used in the A220 Alpine endurance cars and also in the "secret" Alpine F 1 project car which was tested ( but never raced ) by Mauro Bianchi.



#77 Mohican

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 14:37

Allegedly, Arnoux was sacked because he was courting Piero Lardi's underage daughter. Or because he was using cocaine. Take your pick.

Prost had quite a reputation for screwing around. His boss' wife, Princess Stephanie of Monaco and Jacques Laffite's wife for example. The latter was his best friend.....tells you something about Prost' character I suppose....


Do you know this for a fact or are you just throwing allegations around ?
Anyway, it appeared that Princess Stephanie of Monaco was rather an "easy" person...she even had a baby with her bodyguard. Bernadette Laffite was however not a person I would have expected this kind of behaviour from.

#78 PeterElleray

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 15:38

I'm just wondering how anyone could know any of this 'to be a fact' - unless you were in the room at the time  (m'lord) ?

 

But, yes, those were the allegations that were doing the rounds in the paddock at the time.



#79 ray b

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 14:57

I am not sure how you can say they were legal. It was hardly regular pump fuel even if the FIA wasn't checking it for conformity.

A normal car couldn´t run on the fuel if Brabham mechanics filled it up, right?

 

Was Brabham cheating with its hydraulic suspension?

Was Honda cheating with its pop off valve overboost?

Was Red Bull cheating with their flexi wings?

 

I'd say the answer was yes....

honda pop-off valve overboost was indycar not F-1



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#80 ray b

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 15:16

This is from Wikipedia, so not necessarily 100% reliable, but interesting all the same, did teams really run on such high percentages of the stuff?

 

Toluene can be used as an octane booster in gasoline fuels used in internal combustion engines. Toluene at 86% by volume fuelled all the turbo Formula 1 teams in the 1980s, first pioneered by the Honda team. The remaining 14% was a "filler" of n-heptane, to reduce the octane to meet Formula 1 fuel restrictions. Toluene at 100% can be used as a fuel for both two-stroke and four-stroke engines; however, due to the density of the fuel and other factors, the fuel does not vaporise easily unless preheated to 70 degrees Celsius (Honda accomplished this in their Formula 1 cars by routing the fuel lines through the muffler system to heat the fuel).

In Australia, in 2003, toluene was found to have been illegally combined with petrol in fuel outlets for sale as standard vehicular fuel. Toluene attracts no fuel excise, whereas other fuels are taxed at over 40%, so fuel suppliers are able to profit from substituting the cheaper toluene for petrol. The extent of toluene substitution has not been determined.[19][20]

Toluene is another in a group of fuels that have recently been used as components for jet fuel surrogate blends.[21] Toluene is used as a jet fuel surrogate for its content of aromatic compounds.

 

A pharmacist friend has told me that the greatest danger to anyone exposed to the stuff is neurological damage from inhalation, but of course there are risks from skin contact etc as well.

toluene is the stuff in plastic model glue that gets glue sniffers high

while nasty and can cause problems it does not cause hepatitis as that is a virus caused illness

and I know of one 60's glue sniffer who discovered toluene and used it by the gallon

oddly he is still alive today and back in the 60's street racing [drags] :rolleyes:

he was a local legend for his quick shifts and car control [traction]

so much that people would hire him to race their cars for money races :confused:



#81 h4887

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 20:55

 

A pharmacist friend has told me that the greatest danger to anyone exposed to the stuff is neurological damage from inhalation, but of course there are risks from skin contact etc as well.

A pity no-one told me that in my first job as a polymer chemist, when we regularly swabbed the benches down with toluene. That was nearly 50 years ago... :cool: