32 replies to this topic

[Charlieman]

That's Goodwood and its invented traditions. It is difficult to say much more.

 

I can't go there because I could never play the games.

[GMACKIE]

Is there still fox hunting 'over there', perhaps ?

[Jack-the-Lad]

Lord March will be crushed when he hears of this.

[BRG]

[Vitesse2]

I assume he's referring to the 'house system' used during the Members' Meetings. But as I've posted before, while it might seem like an 'invented tradition' there is at least one pre-WW2 precedent: the planned La Baule automobile week in 1939. It was to start with a concentration touristique (whatever one of those is when it's chez lui!), followed by the inevitable concours d'élégance, and then tennis, golf and ballroom dancing competitions. Points would be awarded for all these and added to competitors' performances in the La Baule Grand Prix and the Rallye La Baule.

 

Although given that it was due to start on August 26th you can probably guess why most of it didn't happen.

[P.Dron]

As an ex-public school twit, I must say that I consider the 'house system' thing rather embarrassingly stupid.

[pete53]

The idea of having houses was copied by the state schools. Going back to the late 50s and 60s,  both my primary school ( Pitt, Cater, Lennard and Hayden - see, I can still clearly remember the names) and secondary school had a house system. It was largely used in the context of sporting events. Do state schools still have houses? I know my children's school didn't.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I assume he's referring to the 'house system' used during the Members' Meetings. But as I've posted before, while it might seem like an 'invented tradition' there is at least one pre-WW2 precedent: the planned La Baule automobile week in 1939. It was to start with a concentration touristique (whatever one of those is when it's chez lui!), followed by the inevitable concours d'élégance, and then tennis, golf and ballroom dancing competitions. Points would be awarded for all these and added to competitors' performances in the La Baule Grand Prix and the Rallye La Baule.

Although given that it was due to start on August 26th you can probably guess why most of it didn't happen.

I was at the Members' Meeting this March (coincidence? I think not😀) and thought the house system was silly, but just saw it as an amusement and didn't really think about it too much one way or another. Let the participants have fun if that's what they like.

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 01 October 2015 - 21:31.

[Glengavel]

The idea of having houses was copied by the state schools. Going back to the late 50s and 60s,  both my primary school ( Pitt, Cater, Lennard and Hayden - see, I can still clearly remember the names) and secondary school had a house system. It was largely used in the context of sporting events. Do state schools still have houses? I know my children's school didn't.

 

My new town comprehensive school had 'houses' back in the 70s, and still has today, although the names have changed at some point in the intervening years. I struggle to remember anything relevant about them though. My wife has taught at two secondary schools and they both have a 'house' system; again it seems to be a bit of an irrelevance.

[Terry Walker]

My dim memory of State School days in West Oz was that we were divided arbitrarily into "factions" for sports games, named after colours.  As far as I know, the tradition survives today. I wonder if the colours notion came from some classical scholar?  It was obviously very important because I have no idea what faction I was ever in.

[Ray Bell]

In schools it provides a means of having competition in sporting events...

In my case, Fitzroy might play Marsden, Brisbane would play Batman. Each house being named after someone of note in our early history, of course.

[Rob Miller]

My understanding, derived from the Teddy Lester books, is that, at boarding school, your house was the name of your hall of residence, named after the Master in charge.

 

But that was fifty-five years ago, and the books were forty-odd years old then.

[kayemod]

In schools it provides a means of having competition in sporting events...

Each house being named after someone of note in our early history, of course.

 

Ned Kelly?

[Gary Davies]

Ah but it’s only in proper public schools where new boys are able to experience the joys of fighting a grizzly bear, to be nailed to the wall on St Tadger's Day and later, take part in the Thirty Mile Hop and see how a properly resourced School Bully operates. Don't get that sort of opportunity in Grammar schools or Comprehensives.

 

That's what really teaches a chap all he needs to know about the benefits of social deference.

[BRG]

In my case, Fitzroy might play Marsden, Brisbane would play Batman. Each house being named after someone of note in our early history, of course.

I never knew that Batman was an Australian.  Was Robin a Kiwi?   Hang on, that's getting a bit ornothological...

 

My state grammar school had houses.  An old school chum and I were trying to remember the names recently.  There was Cobb's, Gibb's Milton's and Halliwell's (mine - our mascot was a ginger haired trollop in a Union Flag miniskirt) and then there was Slytherin's of course.

[David Birchall]

As a "graduate" (Hah!) of one of Mr McMillan's Inconprehensibles I sympathise with Charlieman, somewhat. However, having been to the Goodwood Revival twice now (and its a long bloody way from Vancouver)I can say that since everybody there can dress and act like a **** it has a levelling effect that Charlieman may have missed. Right, I'll go back now to my bowl of gravel after which I shall sweep out the shoe box we call home...

Edited by David Birchall, 03 October 2015 - 02:53.

[LotusElise]

We didn't have houses at my comprehensive in the 1990s. We did have them at primary, imaginatively named after colours. Siblings were always in the same house.

 

The "members' privileges" at the Revival (access to all paddocks, use of all under-track tunnels) did rub me up the wrong way a bit the first couple of times I went. Possibly because a certainly well-known TV comic actor and Goodwood regular was kicking off about people being too near him one year.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by kayemod
Ned Kelly?

No, it had to be someone nobody among the staff when the school opened (1913) could personally remember...

Sir Thomas Brisbane was a colonial Governor, Samuel Marsden made a name as a preacher and farmer, but I think history tells he was hard on his minions, Charles Fitzroy was another Governor and John Batman was a farmer who founded a city, Melbourne.

The house colours were green (Fitzroy), yellow (Brisbane), brown (Batman) and red (Marsden). It's possible that the latter had red because he used to draw so much blood flogging convicts.

[john aston]

As ever I remain conflicted about Goodwoood. The racing , the circuit and the cars /drivers are absolutely wonderful and Lord March's attention to detail is rightly praised. But I find the pantomime element , however well intentioned , utterly risible. A past is being revived which never existed in the first place  but as re-enactments (40s weekends etc ) happen every week in Summer it is easy to see why Goodwoood is such a hit with people who like fancy dress parties . Add in a Tatler style element of braying hoorays and a house system and I am very close to becoming a Jeremy Corbyn fan.

 

I don't like the fact I can't just buy a ticket to get in the paddock and I am damned if I am going to be told that even if I do get a paddock pass I have to dress up like Terry Thomas . 

 

I tend to be lot more in my comfort zone wearing jeans(which I have worn every day since I retired ) and wandering ariound the paddock at Cadwell VSCC or HSCC meeting with kindred who are there to see but not to  be seen

[Dipster]

As ever I remain conflicted about Goodwoood. The racing , the circuit and the cars /drivers are absolutely wonderful and Lord March's attention to detail is rightly praised. But I find the pantomime element , however well intentioned , utterly risible. A past is being revived which never existed in the first place  but as re-enactments (40s weekends etc ) happen every week in Summer it is easy to see why Goodwoood is such a hit with people who like fancy dress parties . Add in a Tatler style element of braying hoorays and a house system and I am very close to becoming a Jeremy Corbyn fan.

 

I don't like the fact I can't just buy a ticket to get in the paddock and I am damned if I am going to be told that even if I do get a paddock pass I have to dress up like Terry Thomas . 

 

I tend to be lot more in my comfort zone wearing jeans(which I have worn every day since I retired ) and wandering ariound the paddock at Cadwell VSCC or HSCC meeting with kindred who are there to see but not to  be seen

 I agree wholeheartedly.  

 

When I retired I donated all my suits and ties to charity and have worn jeans and tee shirt (clean of course) almost every day since. And have rarely been happier. For "occasions" I will wear slacks and a blazer!

[ensign14]

As ever I remain conflicted about Goodwoood. The racing , the circuit and the cars /drivers are absolutely wonderful and Lord March's attention to detail is rightly praised. But I find the pantomime element , however well intentioned , utterly risible.

 

Without the pantomime element there might not be a Goodwood.

 

And the house system is basically a device to get kids interested, as far as I can see.  Given that Bernie's target demographic is solely people who can afford Rolices, at least somebody is trying to encourage the next generation of racers.

[Dipster]

I never knew that Batman was an Australian.  Was Robin a Kiwi?   Hang on, that's getting a bit ornothological...

 

My state grammar school had houses.  An old school chum and I were trying to remember the names recently.  There was Cobb's, Gibb's Milton's and Halliwell's (mine - our mascot was a ginger haired trollop in a Union Flag miniskirt) and then there was Slytherin's of course.

Ours were School (denoted by a green ribbon sewn on the school blazer chest pocket), Abbey (pale blue), Castle (yellow) and Forest (dark blue).

 

I confess I hated the whole Grammar school set up although it taught me self reliance and discipline (I had wanted to go to tech school. But once in I could not get out again. Whenever I hear the Eagle`s Hotel California it has a certain meaning for me.....)  and never wondered where the names were derived from.

[LotusElise]

I do love Goodwood, and am a staunch supporter of the Revival, but it was very pleasant to discover Shelsley Walsh this summer. It has some great old-school atmosphere, plenty of great cars to see, and a refreshingly relaxed attitude. Plus, you can get lunch there for under a fiver.

[Charlieman]

Lord March will be crushed when he hears of this.

I respect what Lord March has achieved and understand why he needs to raise money for the family business. John Aston at #19 describes how I feel about fancy dress and "awkwardness". Fashionable frocks and events go out of fashion. Even if you can live with Goodwood's theatricality, there are other considerations.

 

Goodwood events occupy three weekends of a 35 race weekend year in Europe. Other historic event organisers know that they can't compete with Goodwood for those weekends, so anything that they put on at those times will be a "big clubby". Goodwood events require a long time commitment from competitors, partners and spanner wielders. It means that those competitors and cars appear at fewer events, possibly only at the big international events promoted in brochures like the one published by MotorSport every year.

 

Big, multi-day events have become the direction for historic racing, even when the grids are a bit cheaper than at Goodwood. For a bunch of enthusiasts running a humble MG or Anglia, Silverstone Classic is an attractive proposition. The cost per minute or mile of competitive driving sounds good, unless you blow your engine in practice. For enthusiasts, club events may offer a less financially risky proposition and more racing minutes.

 

What is the future of historic racing? I don't know, but you and I are allowed to ask whether it is heading safely.

 

The multi-day event organisers have improved organisation and appearance of the sport. But I've been to places where they cram more races and practice time into a day than in the UK; unless there is a difficult car recovery or barrier damage, it should be five minutes between the last car finishing and cars lining up, on the track not a paddock lane, for a preparation lap. Only at bike events do you hear over the tannoy, "We're ahead of schedule so we've added a handicap race for...".

 

Who will become interested in historics? If it is possible to buy a slightly rotten Austin A35 or whatever, even if it means selling the Japanese or German hotrod, young people should get involved. They'll build cars that they can race at club events (not banger racing) locally. Historic, vintage, classic, (insert preferred name here) racing needs more young people who aren't Goodwood's demography.

 

"The Right Crowd and No Crowding", as they proclaimed at Brooklands. Most of us are fine about No Crowding, but the sentiment of the whole declamation is less comfortable.

[Charlieman]

I do love Goodwood, and am a staunch supporter of the Revival, but it was very pleasant to discover Shelsley Walsh this summer. It has some great old-school atmosphere, plenty of great cars to see, and a refreshingly relaxed attitude. Plus, you can get lunch there for under a fiver.

Spot on. VSCC minor events, hill climbs, classic tin top racers and cheapish GTs -- they don't have glamour, not always close racing, but they feel right. And for whatever I've said about elite events where elite cars appear, the people in garages have always been politeful and helpful.

[Jack-the-Lad]

I have been to seven Revivals and one (soon to be two) Members' Meeting. This happens at significant expense and effort as I am in the U.S. I probably won't be attending another Revival as I can only afford one UK event per year, but also because it has just grown too large and crowded. And too commercial. I fully support that only GRRC members have paddock access because even with limited entry it is already over crowded. I am hoping that the MMs do not become as commercialized and crowded as Revival.

As for the distractions at Revival such as the dress-up, the aviation component, the vendors' area, etc., well, that's all part of what makes it Revival isn't it? Those of you in the UK really should rejoice that you have this event. We have nothing that even approaches it in the U.S., not even Monterey week, which is "glorious" in its own way, but not nearly as spectacular as Revival. And even those who might decry the distractions would admit that the racing is brilliant, the cars are breathtaking and the drivers approachable. And do the distractions really diminish the racing? As for the spectators who might be there for the dress up and the Champagne more than for the competition, perhaps the exposure to historic racing will create some new enthusiasts to the sport, and that could only be a good thing.

[Charlieman]

Those of you in the UK really should rejoice that you have this event. We have nothing that even approaches it in the U.S., not even Monterey week, which is "glorious" in its own way, but not nearly as spectacular as Revival.

In the UK, we've moved away from club racing to "events" very quickly. I remember going to F1 races where historic single seaters were a support race and you could wander round the paddock afterwards, pondering at empty barrels of methanol.

 

If you can find a spare weekend, pop over to the UK for a hill climb or vintage bikes at Mallory Park. You can meet swanky people at Goodwood, but if you want to meet people who prepared cars and bikes, reciting more than the anecdote you have heard thirty times, you have a better chance with old bikers.

[raceannouncer2003]

Without the pantomime element there might not be a Goodwood.

 

And the house system is basically a device to get kids interested, as far as I can see.  Given that Bernie's target demographic is solely people who can afford Rolices, at least somebody is trying to encourage the next generation of racers.

 

So Bernie's target demographic would not include people like me who can only afford Timices...

 

Vince H.

[Jack-the-Lad]

In the UK, we've moved away from club racing to "events" very quickly. I remember going to F1 races where historic single seaters were a support race and you could wander round the paddock afterwards, pondering at empty barrels of methanol.
 
If you can find a spare weekend, pop over to the UK for a hill climb or vintage bikes at Mallory Park. You can meet swanky people at Goodwood, but if you want to meet people who prepared cars and bikes, reciting more than the anecdote you have heard thirty times, you have a better chance with old bikers.

One of the benefits of driving around lost is what you can trip over. Several years ago we were lost in the countryside around Cheltenham, and as we rounded a bend found ourselves at.......Prescott. Although there was not an event and it was closing time, the caretaker offered to let me drive our hire car up the hill. "Yes, please!" Then, the attendant at the Bugatti Trust stayed open late to allow us a thorough look around. It was a brilliant day. I hope to attend an event there some day.

[LotusElise]

 I fully support that only GRRC members have paddock access because even with limited entry it is already over crowded.

 

It's always close to empty when I've passed, and the one time I sneaked in.

[Charlieman]

...Prescott. Although there was not an event and it was closing time, the caretaker offered to let me drive our hire car up the hill. "Yes, please!" Then, the attendant at the Bugatti Trust stayed open late to allow us a thorough look around. It was a brilliant day. I hope to attend an event there some day.

English and British people continually have a go at ourselves for being uncooperative and awkward. And we're right to have a go; sometimes we go out of the way to be unhelpful. At other times, we find ourselves or fellows to be extraordinarily helpful.

 

I don't think helpfulness or intentional awkward behaviour are British or English attributes. Wherever you come from in the world, you'll encounter people who don't like you because of your nationality. But a shared passion for old cars and motor sport often helps to break down barriers.

 

I've said it many times that drivers and mechanics are mostly happy to talk about their beloved beasts. They won't tell you any secrets, intentionally at least, but you can learn why a car is loved. 

[Jack-the-Lad]

English and British people continually have a go at ourselves for being uncooperative and awkward. And we're right to have a go; sometimes we go out of the way to be unhelpful. At other times, we find ourselves or fellows to be extraordinarily helpful.
 
I don't think helpfulness or intentional awkward behaviour are British or English attributes. Wherever you come from in the world, you'll encounter people who don't like you because of your nationality. But a shared passion for old cars and motor sport often helps to break down barriers.

One of the reasons we keep returning to England,, Scotland and Wales is because of the lovely people we have encountered. I tend to remember those who have abused or disrespected me in some way, and in nearly a dozen visits, I can't recall this happening. (I'll give myself a bit of credit here. When we travel we never forget that we are guests in someone else's country and always try to conduct ourselves accordingly.) Granted, we tend to be in the countryside rather than the cities, but cities worldwide, regardless of the country, aren't necessarily known for their hospitality.

[LotusElise]

I'm living rurally again now, after seven years in a big city, and I do think that people are more easy-going and talkative in the countryside. If you have a dog with you, even more so.