98 replies to this topic

[balmybaldwin]

Brands Hatch was used for the London Paralympics. Alright for a flat sprinters/rolluer's course I guess but I prefer hilly bike races

[swintex]

Brands Hatch was used for the London Paralympics. Alright for a flat sprinters/rolluer's course I guess but I prefer hilly bike races

It might not be Mont Ventoux "hilly", but it's certainly not flat.

[Dan333SP]

Brands Hatch was used for the London Paralympics. Alright for a flat sprinters/rolluer's course I guess but I prefer hilly bike races

 

Hand cycles aren't particularly well suited to climbing, so Brands with its relatively mild climbs is perfect for that event. Plus, Zanardi won so it was epic.

 

The 1966 UCI world championship actually took place on the Nurburgring. There are some pretty steep grades on the course and it's constantly up and down, I think it makes for a pretty good venue actually.

Edited by Dan333SP, 04 October 2015 - 14:24.

[63Corvette]

So I'm an avid cyclist and amateur racer myself, and I love seeing photos or news about current/former professional drivers/motorcycle riders that use cycling as training for their motorsport endeavors.

 

We all know about Jenson Button being a competitive triathlete, and Fernando Alonso came close to buying out the Basque Euskatel pro tour cycling team a few years ago when they ran into financial trouble, but the deal fell through. He's very close friends with a few Spanish professional cyclists, and he trains regularly on his bike, which I'd probably assume is now a Specialized Mclaren Venge rather than the Colnago Ferrari bike he was on before.

 

There are a lot of similarities in the physical attributes that make for a competitive cyclist and a professional driver at the F1 level (size, weight, endurance, quick reactions, risk taking, situational awareness, ect.), so it's a natural fit. Moto racers have even more crossover given the 2 wheeled nature of the sports.

 

My hypothetical question is- If you were to line up all professional motorsports drivers/riders past and present who ride all the time, who would win in a cycling race? Personally, I'd love to see this because it'd make for entertaining television, it isn't nearly as risky as an actual race, and it could give bragging rights to an unexpected individual.

 

 

 

Footnote: I live in Richond, VA so I'm still on a high from the last week of the UCI world championships here, got cycling on my mind 24/7.

My guess is that Alain Prost would be very competitive, based on a test climb that was reported in Car and Driver where he beat Mark Webber up a steep TDF route.

[CHIUNDA]

https://en.m.wikiped...ez#Ascent_times should work

Very interesting list of shame.

Super impressive times from Nairo Quintana. Strange that Froome doesn't feature on the list. What am I missing?

[CHIUNDA]

Lol, how old do you think he is? I can tell you he's not 50

Looks fitter than Alonso IMO. But looks can be deceiving I guess. Whatever.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 04 October 2015 - 17:26.

[BRG]

Super impressive times from Nairo Quintana. Strange that Froome doesn't feature on the list. What am I missing?

If you are in the yellow jersey, you don't have to win every stage.  You can let some hero run away up the Alp if he is minutes behind you in the general classification.  Froome isn't a specialist climber, he is a Grand Tour rider which means being good at time trialling and being able to keep up well on the climbs.

[scheivlak]

 

The 1966 UCI world championship actually took place on the Nurburgring. There are some pretty steep grades on the course and it's constantly up and down, I think it makes for a pretty good venue actually.

The 1978 race as well - in typical Eifel weather.

 

This thread on TNF gives a nice overview: http://forums.autosp...ed/?hl=+bicycle

 

As mentioned in that thread, race tracks used for bicyle racing include Zandvoort (1959 WCh), Assen, Zolder (1969 and 2002 WCh), Spa (e.g. 1989 TdF), Nurburgring (1927,1966 and 1978 WCh), Sachsenring, Avus (Olympics 1936), Goodwood (1982 WCh), Mallory Park (1970 WCh), Brands Hatch, Brooklands, Montlhery, Reims (WCh 1947 and 1958), Rouen, Magny Cours, Dijon-Prenois, Albi, Imola (WCh 1968), Mugello, Fiorano, Monaco (extended circuit, TdF 2009) Montjuich, Barcelona/Montmelo, Laguna Seca, Riverside, Road America, Road Atlanta, Indianapolis (! - 1978 PanAmerican Games 100k time trail).

[thiscocks]

Good thread im quite intersted in how cycling helps drivers stay fit being a cyclist myself. Im in a cycle club in which Peter Dumbreck has been part of for the last couple of years and he does bike races throughout the year when he can fit it around his driving. He is very quick on the bike especially up hills. We have an anual road race hosted by our club which includes a very nasty hill which is climbed three times. Peter has finished second for the last two years on it, this year behind a fellow team mate who is probably the fastest rider in our club. Some pics: https://www.flickr.c...57651099233933/

Edited by thiscocks, 04 October 2015 - 18:54.

[thiscocks]

Bike races on classic F1 track could be fun to watch though. Lot's of hard braking and overtaking in to Tosa

A stage of this years Giro d'Italia Included partial laps of the Imola track going down the straight, round Tosa and through Aqua Minerale- all pretty much flat out on a bike!

[Brod]

If you are in the yellow jersey, you don't have to win every stage.  You can let some hero run away up the Alp if he is minutes behind you in the general classification.  

 

Yeah, but that's not what Froome usually does - he tries to humiliate the rest of the field at every chance he gets, no matter if he is the leader of the race or not. To the rest of your post: Doesn't change the fact, that he is one of the best climbers (a fact I don't appreciate because I neither like Froome nor trust him and his abilities). But that's OT.

Edited by Brod, 04 October 2015 - 19:23.

[BRG]

The corners may have been flat out, but that bike race made me realise how steep some of the gradients are at Imola.

[balmybaldwin]

Yeah, but that's not what Froome usually does - he tries to humiliate the rest of the field at every chance he gets, no matter if he is the leader of the race or not. To the rest of your post: Doesn't change the fact, that he is one of the best climbers (a fact I don't appreciate because I neither like Froome nor trust him and his abilities). But that's OT.

It does beg the question why he gets so much flak compared to nairo and the other competitors tho (I don't remember anyone pointing the finger at aru for example when he blitzed Froome in the veulta this year). I too am not his biggest fan, but this year he's grown on me and I'm beginning to trust a bit more.

[Brod]

It does beg the question why he gets so much flak compared to nairo and the other competitors tho (I don't remember anyone pointing the finger at aru for example when he blitzed Froome in the veulta this year). I too am not his biggest fan, but this year he's grown on me and I'm beginning to trust a bit more.

 

Nah, Aru didn't attempt back to back GTs so I won't worry to much about that (remember Contador 2011 and 2015 or Froome himself after the Tour 2012. It is hard). And don't forget that a lot of cycling fans are doubting Aru too just because he is driving for Astana. 

I think the biggest problem is Froomes background story. His bilharzia and the sudden transformation into a world class cyclist at the 2011 Vuelta are just hard to comprehend. Even dopers usually show a lot of promise at  young age...Pantani, Ullrich, Landis or Contador were considered great talents and that's not the case with Froome. 

Anyways I love the sport (with all it's problems) and I hope we'll get one last proper fight between Froome and Contador at the Tour next year. 

Edited by Brod, 04 October 2015 - 20:15.

[warp]

As is true of many, many sports. Most as well as WADA will have testing under the international organisation and the national organisation too (and in most cases, the national authority that organises championship teams as well). E.g. BTCC has mandatory pre-race alcohol tests every day whereas F1 doesn't (though F1 will randomly test during events).

 

 

I was mainly objecting to the assertion that other sportspeople don't have exactly the same inconveniences as cyclists - regardless of how often it happens, they still have to make themselves available for a given hour every day for potential drug testing, they still are potentially randomly tested at every competition. No athlete can take over the counter flu medication. The idea that cyclists are elevated, or that warp "would like to see how others.. do under such scrutiny" is a little silly, because to compete at a top level of sport is to put yourself under that scrutiny and place yourself under pharmacological restrictions regardless of how often that testing takes place.

 

I stand corrected then.

 

I took a dive into the WADA report... and you are absolutely right. All athletes are under the WADA umbrella and respective National and Sport Branch federation, so give or take, the same testing.

 

I think, this is the latest WADA report:

https://wada-main-pr...v-report-en.pdf

 

 

Actually, as of 2013, Cycling (page 7 of 66) all over had 22,252 samples, 278 (1.25%) Adverse analytical findings and 153 (0.69%) Doping violations.

Automobile sports (page 9 of 66) had 313 samples, 18 (5.75%) AAF's and 14 (4.47%) violations.

 

Let's look at federation level.

 

FIA (page 15 of 66) - 88 samples, 3 (3.41%) AAF, 2 (2.27%) violations

UCI (page 14 of 66) - 9,430 samples, 91 (0.97%) AAF, 47 (0.50%) violations.

 

The report is very extensive and goes on about categories and as always... numbers may not tell the whole story, for instance there are more people racing bikes that cars under federation sanctioned events (maybe?). That said, no doubt than in gross numbers, cyclists are doping more than other athletes, probably only topped by weight lifters (surprise!)

[CHIUNDA]

What the numbers tell me is if we had 9000 samples from FIA cycling would look like a very clean sport. Just out of curiosity - what performance enhancement would a driver derive from drugs? The motivation to abuse seems limited.

[Dan333SP]

What the numbers tell me is if we had 9000 samples from FIA cycling would look like a very clean sport. Just out of curiosity - what performance enhancement would a driver derive from drugs? The motivation to abuse seems limited.

 

Good point. There are very obvious advantages to using EPO and other banned substances in cycling, but a baseline of fitness that allows a driver to drive at the limit for an entire race is attainable in F1 without doping, just training and diet. Drugs can't improve reflexes unless you're on some sort of stimulant, but I'd think the downsides outweigh any heightened reactions.

 

I would think most of the positive tests in the auto racing world are for recreational drugs rather than performance enhancers.

[Ross Stonefeld]

As far as I know they always have been. The closest you got in MotoGP/Superbike was Haga(I think it was Haga?) with some weight loss pills. Everyone else was doped up on fun pills.

[discover23]

If you are in the yellow jersey, you don't have to win every stage.  You can let some hero run away up the Alp if he is minutes behind you in the general classification.  Froome isn't a specialist climber, he is a Grand Tour rider which means being good at time trialling and being able to keep up well on the climbs.

He is still a very good climber though compared to Nibali or Valverde for example.

Re Aru.. to me he seems to be the real deal and I hope he prepares for the Tour next year and we'll see how he stacks up against a fresh Nairo and Froome.

Edited by discover23, 05 October 2015 - 20:17.

[Dan333SP]

He is still a very good climber though compared to Nibali or Valverde for example.

 

In the tours he's won, he has been far enough ahead each time the race came to Alpe D'Huez that he hasn't needed to attack or even stay with the best climbers.

 

On Ventoux in 2013, a few days earlier in the race, he solidly beat Nairo and his power data was famously hacked and released for that climb-

 

www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/21/team-sky-data-chris-froome-tour-de-france

 

Not quite doper territory, but clearly an exceptional climber.

 

I prefer to enjoy cycling with my disbelief suspended, like a really good fiction movie. Even if they are all doped, and they may well be, I still enjoy the sport and assume that they're on a level playing field with the other riders.

[discover23]

same here.. I really hope he is not doped but the way he peddles make me question it sometimes but I try to black that out from my memory.

[Dan333SP]

This is now wildly off topic, but I take a little creative license since I'm the OP.

 

I was at the world championship road race at Libby Hill (the cobbled climb that features in most of the pictures of the event), and one guy was wearing a captain america halloween costume holding a big yellow "Go Lance!" sign. It showed up in the TV coverage too, I laughed when I saw it. I wonder if US cycling will ever escape that legacy?

[discover23]

why not .. is not like doping was exclusive to Lance and the US Postal team..

Edited by discover23, 05 October 2015 - 21:31.

[warp]

 

 

I prefer to enjoy cycling with my disbelief suspended, like a really good fiction movie. Even if they are all doped, and they may well be, I still enjoy the sport and assume that they're on a level playing field with the other riders.

 

Preach on, Reverend!! Amen.

 

I think the same. Even if I doped, I wouldn't last a single day against these beasts. It's not like you just dope and win everything.

 

Anybody saw Nibali's descent to win Lombardia?? That's some crazy piloting skills! 

[Dan333SP]

Preach on, Reverend!! Amen.

 

I think the same. Even if I doped, I wouldn't last a single day against these beasts. It's not like you just dope and win everything.

 

Anybody saw Nibali's descent to win Lombardia?? That's some crazy piloting skills! 

 

I watched that this morning, unreal. Cornering at maybe 45 mph sitting on the top tube... Mad.

[Chubby_Deuce]

As far as I know they always have been. The closest you got in MotoGP/Superbike was Haga(I think it was Haga?) with some weight loss pills. Everyone else was doped up on fun pills.

James Stewart and AJ Allmendinger were both busted for Adderall. Stewart had a prescription and just never submitted for the TUE. Not sure about Allmendinger.

[Peat]

one guy was wearing a captain america halloween costume holding a big yellow "Go Lance!" sign. It showed up in the TV coverage too, I laughed when I saw it. I wonder if US cycling will ever escape that legacy?

 

I dvr'ed the film 'Dodgeball' the other week and finished watching it last night. Lance makes a cameo, some of his lines were wince-inducing knowing what we know now. 

[Ross Stonefeld]

James Stewart and AJ Allmendinger were both busted for Adderall. Stewart had a prescription and just never submitted for the TUE. Not sure about Allmendinger.

I forgot about that. And AJ's bizarre excuse of "well someone just gave me something during a night out so I took it"

That was the grounds for being suspended, not what it was

[Donkey]

Techinically not a driver, but Marc Marquez recently broke his hand in a mountain bike accident... http://www.crash.net...d-of-japan.html

[BRG]

why not .. is not like doping was exclusive to Lance and the US Postal team..

There seems to have been an attempt by the cycling establishment to pretend it was all Lance's fault and now everybody is clean.  Yet the UCI wanted to block the Astana team for this season due to their .....let's say less than rigorous doping controls.  But there must have been pressure from the Grand Tour organisers to let them race.  ANd oh look, whcih has been the outright strongest team at nearly every race this year?  The boys in pale blue.  

[speedman13]

You cycle racing fans may be interested in this just published book available from Amazon.

 

[acf69]

I watched that this morning, unreal. Cornering at maybe 45 mph sitting on the top tube... Mad.

[discover23]

Good stuff.

[Chick0]

Techinically not a driver, but Marc Marquez recently broke his hand in a mountain bike accident... http://www.crash.net...d-of-japan.html

 

In 2006 Sebastian Loeb broke his right humerus in a mountain-biking accident near his home in Switzerland, causing him to miss the last four rallies of the season.

[Cloxxki]

MTB injuries seem more common among those who do it as cross training than as daily job.

I used to MTB a ta pretty decent level. participated in Cyclo-Cross races that were broadcast live. An some road cycling at more modest level for training, and when I though I might actually cut it against pros.
The difference between those who got paid for riding vs those who just did it for pushing themselves was huge. Not a lot more training or resting hours, but the pros just had one or two extra gears and seems robotic in not tiring.PED's were the centerpiece of that,and I only realized after my actice career how much of a difference it gies cheaper. With a natural haematocrit of 40%, they'd ride around with 55% and raised haemoglobin and on top of that take an extra blood bag to have another pint extra of oxygen carrying blood. 30-40% more red blood cells than naturally possible. For those who've donated blood: imagine the energy loss of giving one pint of blood (10% or so, but a huge difference), inverted and easily tripled. So much performance boost it's adddictive I'm sure. Pro cyclists never do real ergometer tests anymore, or at least don't publish results honestly, because the distinction betweem human and cyborg is blatantly possible. Top riders also lie about their weight, to make their climbing performance seem more realistic.
 

[Ross Stonefeld]

I wonder if these guys get injured on the MTB because they're overdoing it. Being racing drivers they're not going to ride around all casual like.

I won't ride single track anymore because it just seems too dangerous. For what you get out of it vs having a shunt. I have a trail system near my house where you can use cross country dual-track paths during the summer. So it's kind of like a road course(if single track is a street course) where you have a grass/dirt path which you can get some decent speed on but still has plenty of hills. I'm more likely to hit a bear* than a tree or a rock


*It politely looked both ways before crossing

[ensign14]

 

As for pro cyclists, I once drove up Alp d'Huez in a fairly brisk fashion. It took 25 minutes.  'Il pirate' Pantani set the record that year of 35 minutes, and that was after cycling 150kms to get to the climb.

 

Just shows.  If he'd've worked harder, he would have earned enough to buy a car.

[MargaretM37]

How would Mika do on this? 

 

[warp]

I wonder if these guys get injured on the MTB because they're overdoing it. Being racing drivers they're not going to ride around all casual like.

I won't ride single track anymore because it just seems too dangerous. For what you get out of it vs having a shunt. I have a trail system near my house where you can use cross country dual-track paths during the summer. So it's kind of like a road course(if single track is a street course) where you have a grass/dirt path which you can get some decent speed on but still has plenty of hills. I'm more likely to hit a bear* than a tree or a rock


*It politely looked both ways before crossing

 

To me, they both have their dangers. Road cycling can see you run over, if you're riding in a paceline and somebody grabs a bit too much brake, you're gonna hit the tarmac really ugly. You get road rash on top of any possible broken bone.

 

On the MTB is easier to make mistakes and if you're lucky you will hit soft soil. If not, a tree or a rock garden.

 

That said, I've not had hit the deck on the road bike since forever but I have a spill or two every time I get on the MTB. That said, I don't try stupid stuff anymore even if I try to push harder every time I can.  

[CHIUNDA]

 

I think the biggest problem is Froomes background story. His bilharzia and the sudden transformation into a world class cyclist at the 2011 Vuelta are just hard to comprehend. Even dopers usually show a lot of promise at  young age...Pantani, Ullrich, Landis or Contador were considered great talents and that's not the case with Froome. 

Anyways I love the sport (with all it's problems) and I hope we'll get one last proper fight between Froome and Contador at the Tour next year. 

 

He raced for Kenya and came 3rd in some junior World Championship race.

 

But I think the problem (and the theory behind his climbing skills) is where he started riding. Kenya is not exactly known for cycling even now after Froome has won 2 tours so regardless of his potential his profile wasn't going to be on the same level or even a 10th or Contador's. But I tend to agree with the theory that training at high altitude such as he was doing around Nairobi and Iten in Kenya would give him an advantage on climbing in addition to his natural talent.

 

I am curious how cycling helps F1 drivers. I know Fernando, Button and Webber are keen cyclists but what benefit do they really gain from cycling that uniquely gives them a performance advantage in a F1 race? I follow Button on Strava and the guy rides a lot!

Edited by CHIUNDA, 28 April 2016 - 11:59.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think it's just fitness in general and they like going fast/wearing helmets/using something that you can do a lot of upgrades on and adjust settings.

 

Purely from a training point of view, do 4-6 hour bike rides prepare you for 90 minutes of racing? Why not 90 minutes of maximum intensity exercise of various kinds? Does anyone run 50miles to train for the Marathon?

[CHIUNDA]

I think it's just fitness in general and they like going fast/wearing helmets/using something that you can do a lot of upgrades on and adjust settings.

 

Purely from a training point of view, do 4-6 hour bike rides prepare you for 90 minutes of racing? Why not 90 minutes of maximum intensity exercise of various kinds? Does anyone run 50miles to train for the Marathon?

 

I don't see the performance benefit, but would really like to hear a different POV. But cycling is good at keeping weight and fat at a minimum and maybe that is a factor. Especially considering that these guys are on the elderly side of a F1 drivers' age range.

Edited by CHIUNDA, 28 April 2016 - 12:17.

[AmateurExpert]

I am not sure whether fitness helps with maintaining good reaction times, but I'd expect improved attention span and memory performance are practical benefits for drivers. Physical fitness also helps with mood and confidence, which are important for anyone needing to deliver top performance in a high pressure competitive scenario.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's not really about reaction times, at any level of racing. Fitness is mostly about having the stamina to keep your concentration up. You don't go any faster in the raw sense. 

[AmateurExpert]

F1 drivers have been trained and measured on things like Batak machines (http://www.batak.com/article1.htm), with endorsement by Prof Sid Watkins. This implies reaction times are important to some degree, but of course it could just be primarily a marketing exercise.

[Peat]

It's cardiovascular exercise. It stops you getting tired through  sustained exertion. So it suits driving race cars. I know 'it's not the same', but since I started cycling seriously, physical tiredness stopped being 'a thing' in my endurance kart racing. 

 

Also, it can be extremely cathartic. A lot of time on the bike to process other aspects of their performance.

 

My two peneth.

[Okyo]

A cycling qualifying that decides the grid on sundays race? 


Someone get Bernie on the phone.

Edited by Okyo, 29 April 2016 - 14:58.

[CHIUNDA]

Also, it can be extremely cathartic.

Lewis needs to take up riding seriously.

[Jackmancer]

I reckon Troy Bayliss, 2001, 2006 and 2008 Superbike champion. Even did cycling races.