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If F1 enters a engine duopoly\irrelevant new circuit death spiral what could replace it?


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#1 Isenbold

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 23:50

Given the issues F1 faces at the moment I wondered whether there is any potential for a new open wheel series to emerge or an existing one to grab the average fans attention and what would it look like.   It seems we are headed for a period of 2 engine dominance even if changes are made in 2017 and to date it appears both suppliers do not want to supply opponents who may be competitive with them likely leading to at best 2 horse races for the indefinite future.  Toto Wolff's enthusiasm for 3 car teams is likely to result in Mercedes clean sweeps of most podiums which is hardly likely to retain fans interest for long.  
 
Traditional circuits fans love are being threatened by tens of million dollar sanctioning fees and it appears difficult for  track owners to breaking even let alone making a profit.  It still appears possible F1 may lose the 4 Red Bull cars in the near future and the likes of Sauber, Team India and even McClaren are facing financial difficulties.  
 
So is it possible for a competitor series to arise or does Bernie have things too well locked down?  What might a competitor series look like with respect to;
 
Tracks - Magny Cours and potentially Silverstone and Monza might be available in the near future.  Countries with government sponsored races clearly won't allow comptetion but regional rivalries should mean there there would be opportunities elsewhere.
 
Engines - V8, V10, less complicated V6 turbos - what would be most practical and produce the most affordable racing?   Clearly a much cheaper solution that the current rules is possible.
 
Car manufacturers - give Ferrari, MB, Honda and Renault now appear committed to F1 is it even feasible the remaining manufacturers would support a competitor series?
 
Driver talent -would there even be enough F1 standard drivers willing to join a breakaway series given the risk of some sanction from the current motorsports authorities?


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#2 Gyno

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 23:55

GP1 comes to mind.

 

Everyone have the same cars but more powerful engines that sound GREAT.

Then it would be all about the drivers and not which teams has the best engine car combo.



#3 Marklar

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 00:01

Every racing series who tried to challenge F1 failed, we had that already several decades ago...

#4 repete

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 00:13

Every racing series who tried to challenge F1 failed, we had that already several decades ago...

Everyone failed to fly, until someone succeeded.



#5 Volcano70

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 00:20

I thought i saw last year that because of GP2 and GP3,GP1 is also owned by Formula One



#6 Gyno

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 00:34

I thought i saw last year that because of GP2 and GP3,GP1 is also owned by Formula One

Not by F1, GP1 is owned by Flavio Briatore and Bernie.



#7 Volcano70

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 00:37

I wasn't completely sure 



#8 Incast

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 00:50

If CART's demise taught us anything, it's that a series can collapse remarkably quickly. CART seemed in rude health in 2000, yet just three years later it had been reduced to a shadow of its former self.

 

Formula 1, unlike CART, has no shadow series waiting in the wings to seize its mantle. If Formula 1 does collapse, we would likely see GP1 rapidly setup using customer cars and engines from the final F1 season. Viewing figures and TV contracts would hemorrhage and global motorsport would be rolled back by decades. In time, it could gradually recover - a spec series tends to promote closer racing after all. However, it would be unlikely to ever reach the extent of Formula 1's popularity.

 

If it does happen, it is very simply down to the fact that a private equity is running the sport extracting every cent and penny they can get. Very very few decisions are taken in the 'interest of the sport' and the FIA has increasingly become a passenger in the series it is meant to be running.

 

I have lived and breathed the sport for nearly 20 years. I regret being so emotionally attached - what is being done is painful to watch. It's a bizarre thing to say, but I would almost be relieved if it went pop and had to be rebuilt from the ground up. American open wheel racing has gone through a lot of pain, but what I have seen with Indycar this year has highlighted how much better things can be.


Edited by Incast, 08 October 2015 - 00:51.


#9 KingTiger

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:28

Basically - no. Motorsport isn't popular enough to support two premier world championships. I don't think it matters anyway, F1 is still very far away from a collapse. 



#10 Melbourne Park

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 01:53

Go a form of LMP cars, and increase their races. Despite them running typically 6 hour races ... They could race much more, and across the world. They can be much cheaper to race too ... get more manufacturers, and ensure privateers can buy cars. And go racing ...

 

In Australia, we have our Bathurst race this weekend ... Perhaps that track could handle the speed of LMPs instead of our perhaps defunct V8 class? If Australia switched to such cars, it might cost $500,000 per car for an Australian season with a purchased car, and teams could also race overseas ...

 

The formula has much better potential than F1 IMO ... F1 is a total disaster - it costs more than ever, most teams don't meet their objectives, the engine formula is farcical and costly, the cars are much slower than a few years ago, the tyre formula is a bad joke, the drivers don't race much, they are forced to parade around for most of the race. 



#11 ardbeg

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 02:55

All it takes is to convince the top 5--6 drivers from F1 to jump ship. Would be expensive, yes, but if Lewis, Alonso, Seb, Ricciardo, Max, Kimi, Bottas and Rosberg would in Formula R, how many would care about F1?

The teams might think they are important, but it is the drivers that has fans. There are exceptions of course, but hand of heart - how many of you update your idea of your favourite team when your favourite driver signs a new deal with a another team?

 

Considering that F1 refuses decent Internet presence and has pissed off every track owner in Europe - I'd say that if someone with resources really put their mind to it, it would be easy.

That said, I do not think motorsport will ever be as big as it once was. There are so many new entertainment sources nowadays. So even if they could compete with F1, it would be a bad investment.


Edited by ardbeg, 08 October 2015 - 02:59.


#12 teejay

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 02:57

Indycar. 



#13 jonpollak

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:07

Great post Incast !!!

#14 SuperSwede

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 03:17

I have lived and breathed the sport for nearly 20 years. I regret being so emotionally attached - what is being done is painful to watch. It's a bizarre thing to say, but I would almost be relieved if it went pop and had to be rebuilt from the ground up. American open wheel racing has gone through a lot of pain, but what I have seen with Indycar this year has highlighted how much better things can be.

I know what you mean man, I´ve followed F1 with a passion since I saw my first race when I was 10 and got blown away and that´s 42 years ago now.  Not that 20 or 40 years makes any other difference than that I prolly have more wrinkles than you do and so on..  Not as many as Keith Richards has just yet though, but I´m getting there.. :)

 

Anyways, it´s so God damn frustrating to have seen what could have been done throughout the years to make an already amazing product even better and the ones that rules it constantly seems to **** up and makes it worse. Either by not changing the rules when needed, like to make sure the cars never get too aero-dependant. Or by making changes that´s not needed or that makes the racing worse.

 

Think grooved tires, re-fueling, the move from V10´s to V8´s, or these uberexpensive V6 Turbo hybrid engines that can´t be run without constant management and changes of their settings, which comes with an attached development rule that secures performance advantages/disadvantages for years all for the sake of wanting to look like "green" in the eyes of those who don´t care about racing..

 

Got no exact numbers on this (just some bro science) but it´s like one (1) flight across the pond in a Jumbojet leaves a bigger carbone oxide (dioxide, mono-oxide, oh well something?) print than a whole season of racing with 20 F1 cars at 20 tracks does. Not to mention all pollution from the trucks carrying the cars, the team "houses" and all the other stuff they need too, so screw this unbelievably silly "green racing" F1 concept.
 

I do like the safety standard of the cars of today, but not how they handle and the way that the drivers (with the help of engineers) has to drive them either. But as hooked on F1 as I am, I will of course keep watching every race anyways, and I´ll keep paying for the pleasure too even if (as you prolly have noticed by now), its rule makers get me pretty frustrated at times.

 

Edit: Sorry about my ramblings mates, but that sure felt good to get out of my system..


Edited by SuperSwede, 08 October 2015 - 03:18.


#15 Peter0Scandlyn

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 04:10

GP1 comes to mind.

 

Everyone have the same cars but more powerful engines that sound GREAT.

Then it would be all about the drivers and not which teams has the best engine car combo.

 

You forgot the bit that it would all be about BERNIE, STILL  :mad:



#16 Peter0Scandlyn

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 04:15

All it takes is to convince the top 5--6 drivers from F1 to jump ship. Would be expensive, yes, but if Lewis, Alonso, Seb, Ricciardo, Max, Kimi, Bottas and Rosberg would in Formula R, how many would care about F1?

The teams might think they are important, but it is the drivers that has fans. There are exceptions of course, but hand of heart - how many of you update your idea of your favourite team when your favourite driver signs a new deal with a another team?

 

Considering that F1 refuses decent Internet presence and has pissed off every track owner in Europe - I'd say that if someone with resources really put their mind to it, it would be easy.

That said, I do not think motorsport will ever be as big as it once was. There are so many new entertainment sources nowadays. So even if they could compete with F1, it would be a bad investment.

 

Missed something there.......You forgot to say where these drivers are going to jump to....or was that Formula R?

 

Never heard of it and even Google struggles with it....Remote control....What!



#17 Knot

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 05:07

A1GP will take its place!



#18 chipmcdonald

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 06:40


 

If it does happen, it is very simply down to the fact that a private equity is running the sport extracting every cent and penny they can get. Very very few decisions are taken in the 'interest of the sport' and the FIA has increasingly become a passenger in the series it is meant to be running.

 

 

 The vampire investment groups have wreaked their havoc across the planet, eviscerating great companies/brands one after another, leaving zombie brand names in their wake.

 

I find it "curious" that F1 began to be both performance neutered and effectively "spec-ed" at the same time GP2 was allowed to jump up a big notch in performance.  They both run on the same tracks, already have sponsor/team crossovers.  If you made a grid of  the "remnants" of F1, Ferrari and Mercedes teams at the "LMP1/F1" and GP2, there wouldn't be much ground technical or safety based on which to not allow that.  

 

People step back and start to say things like "well, that's basically what we have in WEC/LeMans", two classes, then boom - it happens.  You tweak it so that there is a "qualifying race" for GP2, top 10 get to go to line up behind the F1.  Hopefully that makes at least 20 cars.

 

I hate it.  Bureaucracy and oligarch-based shark-capitalism financial systems have doomed F1.  FIA has no incentive to cooperate to make F1 consumer-interesting anymore, the teams have no clout, Bernie's role has been diluted and the "owners" are not interested, or capable of stepping out and making it better.  They're just ghouls. 

 

F1+GP2. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#19 warp

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 06:54

 

Got no exact numbers on this (just some bro science) but it´s like one (1) flight across the pond in a Jumbojet leaves a bigger carbone oxide (dioxide, mono-oxide, oh well something?) print than a whole season of racing with 20 F1 cars at 20 tracks does. Not to mention all pollution from the trucks carrying the cars, the team "houses" and all the other stuff they need too, so screw this unbelievably silly "green racing" F1 concept.
 

 

 

Edit: Sorry about my ramblings mates, but that sure felt good to get out of my system..

 

 

Tell you what else we don't need and I do think consumes insane amounts of energy? Ironing clothes. It doesn't serve any real purpose other than "look good". Irons are not efficient and every household has one.

 

I do not have anything constructive to say really.

 

I don't think anything can replace F1 in the near future. 



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#20 Pontlieue

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 08:33

I don't think Formula 1 will die anytime soon. The most likely outcome in my opinion is a continuation of its slow decline of the past years. Neither a limited number of engine suppliers nor a move away from European tracks is an immediate threat to its existence.

 

But if Formula 1 continues to reduce the number of European races, it will leave a void there, and it would be interesting if there would be something like a European version of IndyCar or Super Formula to fill it.



#21 SuperSwede

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 16:51

The question in this thread was; what (who) could replace the current F1 structure, and I think that the only ones that could pull it off is RedBull.

 

They could (if they have to leave F1 and want to) create a new GP Racing Series as DM said that all of their employers would keep their jobs, and if they do it right, they´ll probably get a lot of attention too. There´s about 800 at RBR and 300 at STR (dunno if that includes RBAT too), so I guess that they could go WEC racing for a year while developing the cars and the series structure, what tracks to use and so on.

 

They got the personal and they got the financial resources to do it too, and they will get them a lot of attention if they do. Come to think of it, just mentioning that they are seriously contemplating it would create a massive media storm and hopefully a massive interest too.

....
F1 will unfortunately prolly gonna continue pretty much the same way for at least 5 years. Sure, they will have 20 cm wider cars, a bit wider rear tires and bit more downforce too. But other than that the cars will look pretty much the same besides the 3cm lower floor and Mercedes will continue to win with the occasional Ferrari upset.

 

I believe that the hopes of a real F1 revolution that many of us had hoped for disappeared when Charlie Whiting explained his view on how the 2017 cars would be like. I mean, if you read between the lines he really was saying was that most of  the current F1 teams can´t afford to get "there" by any other means than by modifying the cars of today.

...
Lets say that RBR creates 2 meter wide, @ ~ 575 kg,  mostly ground effect downforce generating Formula 1 type car with a 3.5L normally aspirated + kers engine @ ~1200-1300 HP, using Michelin/Bridgestone type tires with wider rears and with more emphasis on mechanical grip and said:

-You can race this car which blows away the current F1 cars for a year in a FIA sanctioned series Worldwide for a sum less than the price of the current Renault F1 PU + gearbox. Let´s say somewhere in the region of 20-30m Euro. Every car will be made by us and have the same specs and performance. Price money will be based on what the track promoters are willing to pay, and like 80% of it goes to the teams on a performance based principle. the rest to us for continued finance of development of the cars and the series.

 

I bet that a lot of teams/people involved in higher single-seaters series including F1 would be interested in hearing more about that project.
...
What about the car then.. I´m no engineer but this is the type of car what I would love to see if so. :)

Basics
A 2 meters wide Formula 1 type car

Weight

650 kg including driver, without fuel, oil etc.
(Drivers weighing less than 75 kg will have to add ballast below their seat to reach 75 kg.)

Engine
3.5L normally aspirated V10 + kers engine @ ~1200-1300 BHP.

Gearbox
6 speed, paddle operated. Sort of "quick-shift", but no fancy unnecessary and super expensive double clutch seamless gearboxes. Paddle operated clutch. I would love to see the return of H-shifters and foot operated clutches too, but that´s prolly not really financially realistic as the driver will start to miss gears at times if so and hence that, blow both engines and destroy gearboxes too.

Aero
Ground effect based car where its much less complicated wings (think early 90`s) are basically used to balance the car. DF performance set in conjunction with tire performance with increased slip angles and emphasis on a quite higher percentage of mechanical grip vs aero than the current F1 cars have.   

Tires
Michelin/Bridgestone type made tires that will let the drivers push hard until they drop-off. Wider rears (compared to today) so that the really skilled drivers both can drive the car "on throttle" once again and "lean" on their rear tires out of the corners too, something that has been missing from F1 since 1992.

Drivers equipment (beside the obvious ones).
Remove ALL knobs and buttons on the steering wheels except radio, drink and pit-speed limiter.
Adjustable rollbars and brake balance levers will be allowed, but that´s about it.
 

Telemetry
Forbid ALL telemetry sensors on the cars except for a few ones on the brakes for safety reasons and on the engine too so that the teams can tell a driver to nurse or retire the car before its engine gets to damaged.

Those measures will give back all the aspects of racing an F1 car to the drivers once again and make a HUGE saving in costs as there will no longer be any need for like 20-30 technicians (for each team) looking at computer screens gathering information while in constant contact with the "homebase", trying to figure out and then telling the drivers what settings they should use and to drive the car.

And with no-one to tell them how to drive their cars, manage their tires, their brakes*, and no possibility to adjust the cars diff-settings, the drivers will have to concentrate a lot more on setup and be able to adjust their driving to the cars handling, just as it used to be.

*Until an eventual catastrophic brake failure could possibly be foreseen. (controlled by teams and race-control.)
...
NO use of unnecessary expensive materials like 1 000 Euro a piece wheel bolts that only can be used once and other silly and useless expensive stuff like that. And as said above, no use of seamless gearboxes and so on. No one really cares about that kind stuff anyways just as long as the racing is great and the drivers really gets to show their worth.

 

A Formula 1 car should be a beast to drive and you should be able to appreciate that the guys driving them are doing something really spectacular, not to mention at once realize that "there´s no way in hell that I could do that too" when watching them driving in on-board view.

I mean, think Senna @ Suzuka, Mansell @ Mexico, Peterson at Silverstone and so on to mention a few of many worthy of mentioning. :smoking:

...

Will it happen? I dunno, probably not, but I think that the only ones that possibly could pull it off and make it a viable option to F1 is RedBull.

 

Edit: Spelling disasters..


Edited by SuperSwede, 08 October 2015 - 16:57.


#22 KingTiger

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 18:16

 

...
Lets say that RBR creates 2 meter wide, @ ~ 575 kg,  mostly ground effect downforce generating Formula 1 type car with a 3.5L normally aspirated + kers engine @ ~1200-1300 HP, using Michelin/Bridgestone type tires with wider rears and with more emphasis on mechanical grip and said:

-You can race this car which blows away the current F1 cars for a year in a FIA sanctioned series Worldwide for a sum less than the price of the current Renault F1 PU + gearbox. Let´s say somewhere in the region of 20-30m Euro. Every car will be made by us and have the same specs and performance. Price money will be based on what the track promoters are willing to pay, and like 80% of it goes to the teams on a performance based principle. the rest to us for continued finance of development of the cars and the series.

 

 

You really can't. On top of that, the investment Red Bull would need to make to start up a new championship would be huge. 



#23 SuperSwede

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 19:43

You really can't. On top of that, the investment Red Bull would need to make to start up a new championship would be huge. 

The price for a Renault engine + gearbox is said to be 40m Euro and as you can run a top team in Indy for about $15m (according to Christan Sylt, 2013), I can´t see why it wouldn´t be possible to run the type of "RedBull GP" spec car that I described for somewhere in the region of 20-30m Euro (drivers salary's not included), but you can perhaps enlighten me?

...

Yep you´re correct, it would cost RedBull a huge amount of money to start up and run such a spec series, but that cost would not even be close to the amount of money that they already have invested in F1. And as they have said that all of their employers would keep their jobs, they must have something in mind for all of those people to do.

 

The question is with what if so.. I don´t have a clue mate, and I don´t think that anyone besides the RBR top brass do either (yet) if they´re to leave F1. But I´m pretty sure that they won´t need  about 1100 employees to go WEC racing for instance.

...

Anyways, OP asked what possibly could replace F1 and as I think that it´s a valid question and that it´s a bit of fun to speculate on the subject too, I replied to it by saying that I think that the only ones that have the personal and financial resources to possibly pull it off would be RedBull and added what kind of car that I would like to see if so.

:wave:



#24 superden

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 21:48

I would love to see the return of H-shifters and foot operated clutches too, but that´s prolly not really financially realistic as the driver will start to miss gears at times if so and hence that, blow both engines and destroy gearboxes too.


That's where skill comes in ... given the state of modern F1 and the reliance on electronic crap, you could be forgiven for having forgotten what it looks like.

#25 Cloxxki

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 22:00

If engine rules are going old school AND there are Bernie kickbacks for legendary F1 makers, we might see Cosworth and possibly others step up?
Making a competitive PU just costs way too much now.



#26 Donkey

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 22:06

Women's tennis.



#27 Isenbold

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 22:18

Thanks SuperSwede - I suspect RBR would be looking for something to promote if they do pull out.  They may not have to finance the whole thing themselves - surely there is a Gulf state without an F1 race who might chip in.  I would think even announcing they were looking into setting something up would likely have a devastating effect on the sale price of F1 that Bernie seems to be going on about at the moment.



#28 043Max

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 22:19

Doesn't matter in the end. Put a Verstappem in it, and it will be Won.

 

now say it loud.

 

will be

Won

 

WillbeOne...



#29 P123

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 22:26

The price for a Renault engine + gearbox is said to be 40m Euro and as you can run a top team in Indy for about $15m (according to Christan Sylt, 2013), I can´t see why it wouldn´t be possible to run the type of "RedBull GP" spec car that I described for somewhere in the region of 20-30m Euro (drivers salary's not included), but you can perhaps enlighten me?
...
Yep you´re correct, it would cost RedBull a huge amount of money to start up and run such a spec series, but that cost would not even be close to the amount of money that they already have invested in F1. And as they have said that all of their employers would keep their jobs, they must have something in mind for all of those people to do.
 
The question is with what if so.. I don´t have a clue mate, and I don´t think that anyone besides the RBR top brass do either (yet) if they´re to leave F1. But I´m pretty sure that they won´t need  about 1100 employees to go WEC racing for instance.
...
Anyways, OP asked what possibly could replace F1 and as I think that it´s a valid question and that it´s a bit of fun to speculate on the subject too, I replied to it by saying that I think that the only ones that have the personal and financial resources to possibly pull it off would be RedBull and added what kind of car that I would like to see if so.

:wave:


Creating a new series from scratch would be pouring money down the drain. And Red Bull's current angst is down to them not wanting to pour more money in to prop up their teams in the face of a drop off of their bung from Ecclestone.

#30 maximilian

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 23:14

Indycar. 

 

Yes!  The untapped potential of IndyCar is mind-boggling.  I feel it has the potential, if only...!   CART's only fault was not having the Indy 5000, which led to its inevitable demise as all the big teams were forced to switch to the IRL.  Other than that, there was so much RIGHT about it.



#31 ch103

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 23:37

I have to admit, the current formula of the cars doesn't result in races where drivers are pushing 100% of the time.  And that is a big issue that I have with the races.  Drivers drive to delta lap times to conserve the tyres, or run engines in sub optimal settings to conserve fuel... It's really the opposite of what a race is supposed to be, i.e. seeing who the fastest person can be over "X" distance. 

 

Not to mention that there continues to be a smothering amount of technology in the cars.  As noted earlier, its about seeing who the fastest person is over a given distance.  Safety first, of course, but trying to force racing cars to have road relevance?  Wtf.  The definition of a formula car is that is it a car built to a given specification, or formula, for the sole purpose of racing.  Nothing road relevant about it whatsoever.

 

But it is F1.  And I will watch.  As I always have for the past 20 years.  It is F1 after all.  Having seen what a split did to open wheel racing in America, a replacement series isnt the answer.  The fans just need a leader who is 1. rich enough not to have money be their main driver of their decision making and 2. a race fan at heart.   



#32 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 23:41

 

Basics
A 2 meters wide Formula 1 type car

 

A real F1 car should be 2.15m wide.  :up:  :up:  :cool:

 

1989_001.jpg

 

Comedy car  :lol: :

 

Screen-Shot-2015-02-27-at-19.33.19.png


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 08 October 2015 - 23:43.


#33 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 23:44

Yes!  The untapped potential of IndyCar is mind-boggling. 

 

 

It's American and competes with NASCAR who are all-powerful and define motor racing in the US.

 

The F1 rival needs to come from Europe and/or Asia and/or South America IMO.  :up:  :up:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 08 October 2015 - 23:44.


#34 RealRacing

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 23:53

What iteration is this now?



#35 KingTiger

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 23:55

The price for a Renault engine + gearbox is said to be 40m Euro and as you can run a top team in Indy for about $15m (according to Christan Sylt, 2013), I can´t see why it wouldn´t be possible to run the type of "RedBull GP" spec car that I described for somewhere in the region of 20-30m Euro (drivers salary's not included), but you can perhaps enlighten me?

...

Yep you´re correct, it would cost RedBull a huge amount of money to start up and run such a spec series, but that cost would not even be close to the amount of money that they already have invested in F1. And as they have said that all of their employers would keep their jobs, they must have something in mind for all of those people to do.

 

The question is with what if so.. I don´t have a clue mate, and I don´t think that anyone besides the RBR top brass do either (yet) if they´re to leave F1. But I´m pretty sure that they won´t need  about 1100 employees to go WEC racing for instance.

...

Anyways, OP asked what possibly could replace F1 and as I think that it´s a valid question and that it´s a bit of fun to speculate on the subject too, I replied to it by saying that I think that the only ones that have the personal and financial resources to possibly pull it off would be RedBull and added what kind of car that I would like to see if so.

:wave:

 

I am almost sure that the cost of the Renault PU is a lot less than 40m Euros. Probably half even. Even if it wasn't, there is an enormous difference between a 1200 hp V10 engine and a <600 kg chassis and the race car they use in IndyCar. 



#36 maximilian

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Posted 09 October 2015 - 02:50

It's American and competes with NASCAR who are all-powerful and define motor racing in the US.

 

The F1 rival needs to come from Europe and/or Asia and/or South America IMO.  :up:  :up:

 

IndyCar has loads of international drivers from all those regions, and could definitely expand their calendar to (re-)include races in Europe (including some of the tracks now lost to F1), South America, Japan, Australia, the middle east, and more.  I feel that an international branching out is exactly what they would need to jump over the shadow of NASCAR, because they wouldn't just be relying on the US market, but expand into other regions of the world, some of which should be pretty eager to get a high-profile open wheel racing event with world class drivers back.  IndyCar Grand Prix of France at Magny-Cours or Paul Ricard, anyone?  IndyCar GP of England at Donington?  IndyCar GP of San Marino at Imola?  FWIW, there are more French drivers in IndyCar than in F1.    British drivers?  Guess what... 4 took part in IndyCar in 2015, 3 in F1.   Italian drivers, you say?  IndyCar 2, F1 ZILCH.  Australian drivers?  Japanese drivers?  Brazilian drivers?  Well, gee whiz.  :wave:



#37 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 09 October 2015 - 05:06

Well, gee whiz.  :wave:

 

I know... So where are these international races and do the American sponsors have any interest in them, as they didn't previously?

 

Gold Coast street race runs EVERY YEAR - where are the Indycars!?  :confused:

 

KL city Grand Prix - where are the Indycars!?

 

Buriram International Circuit in Thailand - fantastic grade 1 track -- Where are the Indycars? 

 

Inje Speedium in Korea, beautiful circuit --- Where are the Indycars!!??

 

Donnington, Brand Hatch -- Where are the Indycars!?

 

Magny Cours or Le Man Buggati -- Where are the Indycars!?

 

Imola -- Where are the Indycars!?

 

One can go on and on.

 

:confused:

 

They should do something about this, but is there the interest from the American sponsors!?


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 October 2015 - 05:08.


#38 maximilian

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Posted 09 October 2015 - 12:15

I know... So where are these international races and do the American sponsors have any interest in them, as they didn't previously?

 

Gold Coast street race runs EVERY YEAR - where are the Indycars!?  :confused:

 

KL city Grand Prix - where are the Indycars!?

 

Buriram International Circuit in Thailand - fantastic grade 1 track -- Where are the Indycars? 

 

Inje Speedium in Korea, beautiful circuit --- Where are the Indycars!!??

 

Donnington, Brand Hatch -- Where are the Indycars!?

 

Magny Cours or Le Man Buggati -- Where are the Indycars!?

 

Imola -- Where are the Indycars!?

 

One can go on and on.

 

:confused:

 

They should do something about this, but is there the interest from the American sponsors!?

 

Valid point, but who says American sponsors are the ones?  There should be other international sponsors who are "priced out" by F1 and would be looking for an alternate form of exposure.  And some of IndyCar's sponsors are already international companies - Hitachi, NTT Data, DHL, Bowers & Wilkins...



#39 August

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Posted 09 October 2015 - 14:18

I don't see Red Bull alone forming a breakaway series. To be a real F1 alternative, the series should get some big names from F1 plus some big teams/car manufacturers. With big car manufacturers' (and Red Bull's) money, the series could attract big names from F1. But I doubt Red Bull alone could do it. So I don't really see any serious F1 alternative just splitting from F1. But I wouldn't rule out some series growing bigger than F1, though not instantly.

 

Talking about series I think have potential to become globally big are: NASCAR, IndyCar, Formula E, and WEC. WEC the least; while it could become globally well-recognized, I think people care so much about personalities that three-men crews don't create the same interest as one driver per car. And of course, endurance racing is difficult for casual fans.

 

I assume Formula E had a good start, recognizable drivers attract F1 fans to watch it. Though, it will take many years to make the FE cars look properly fast, only then we can talk about it as an F1 alternative. And it obviously doesn't even aim to be an F1 alternative but for experimenting electric racing cars as well as things like fanboost. When FE has come up with something FOM thinks will enhance F1, F1 will adopt it, no matter how unconventional for F1 it'd be, like fanboost. And I'm pretty convinced FIA won't let it grow bigger than F1. It can become a strong series but never a real F1 alternative.

 

As for IndyCar and NASCAR, I don't think them being centered in North America is such a massive problem. NHL and NBA have fans in Europe, despite them being at night. Actually, apart from night races, IndyCar isn't even so bad for Europeans; 3p ET start is 9pm CET. Of course, you can't drive few hundred kilometers to see a race but it seems like soon F1 will be only flyaway races for Europeans, too.

 

Right now, NASCAR might have more financial power to ever become an alternative to F1. But it's so different to F1. Maybe there are young drivers in Europe with the talent to become a top NASCAR driver, yet they never get to show that talent as the usual road to professional racing doesn't involve oval racing in Europe. And the best best European racers have no guarantee of of being competitive if they went to NASCAR. So NASCAR feels doomed to never properly grow outside the USA.

 

IndyCar on the other hand is closer to racing outside the USA. Non-US drivers have succeeded well there. Right now they really can't compete against F1 but it's beyond me how come the best racing in the world doesn't attract more viewers. If there's one existing series that could threaten F1's position in the future, I'd say it's IndyCar. I don't know history too well but 90s' CART was maybe the strongest rival F1 ever had, too bad the split happened. IndyCar has all a successful F1 alternative needs: similarities like open-wheel cars and road courses but also differences like ovals and semi-spec rules (and their effect on racing).

 

If Red Bull leaves F1 and still wants to remain in open-wheel racing, I'd say having an IndyCar team would be a better option than an own series, at least in short term. There'd be no guarantee the Red Bull series would survive against F1. Unless they got strong partners for the own series, it'd take a long time to establish it properly, to even get a chance to surpass F1 in popularity (or even in return on marketing investment). If they went to IndyCar, they could race in the world's most-attended sports event. Maybe other big companies would follow them to IndyCar and the series would start attracting more drivers from F1. But I don't want Red Bull promoting the IndyCar Series. I couldn't imagine Hulman & Co. selling the series to them, and if RB succeded as a promoter, I could imagine them starting a breakaway series if they succeeded well in promoting, or leaving the series if they didn't succeed in promoting.



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#40 anbeck

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:47

Every racing series who tried to challenge F1 failed, we had that already several decades ago...

 

But now F1 just might kill itself.



#41 Fatgadget

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 11:49

Everyone failed to fly, until someone succeeded.

Indeed... a billion years down the line!

#42 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 12:28

If CVC's shares get sold to Stephen Ross, us American open-wheel fans should go camp outside Stephen Ross' house and demand an audience with him, telling him that we've got the perfect successor for Bernie. He's a man that knows the intricacies of open-wheel racing, and would be the ideal choice to help F1 move into it's next phase.

 

c02-autos-01-4_3.jpg

 

That would likely fix F1 for good.

 

I for one would welcome it.



#43 Wuzak

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 22:26

The question in this thread was; what (who) could replace the current F1 structure, and I think that the only ones that could pull it off is RedBull.

 

They could (if they have to leave F1 and want to) create a new GP Racing Series as DM said that all of their employers would keep their jobs, and if they do it right, they´ll probably get a lot of attention too. There´s about 800 at RBR and 300 at STR (dunno if that includes RBAT too), so I guess that they could go WEC racing for a year while developing the cars and the series structure, what tracks to use and so on.

 

They got the personal and they got the financial resources to do it too, and they will get them a lot of attention if they do. Come to think of it, just mentioning that they are seriously contemplating it would create a massive media storm and hopefully a massive interest too.

....
F1 will unfortunately prolly gonna continue pretty much the same way for at least 5 years. Sure, they will have 20 cm wider cars, a bit wider rear tires and bit more downforce too. But other than that the cars will look pretty much the same besides the 3cm lower floor and Mercedes will continue to win with the occasional Ferrari upset.

 

I believe that the hopes of a real F1 revolution that many of us had hoped for disappeared when Charlie Whiting explained his view on how the 2017 cars would be like. I mean, if you read between the lines he really was saying was that most of  the current F1 teams can´t afford to get "there" by any other means than by modifying the cars of today.

...
Lets say that RBR creates 2 meter wide, @ ~ 575 kg,  mostly ground effect downforce generating Formula 1 type car with a 3.5L normally aspirated + kers engine @ ~1200-1300 HP, using Michelin/Bridgestone type tires with wider rears and with more emphasis on mechanical grip and said:

-You can race this car which blows away the current F1 cars for a year in a FIA sanctioned series Worldwide for a sum less than the price of the current Renault F1 PU + gearbox. Let´s say somewhere in the region of 20-30m Euro. Every car will be made by us and have the same specs and performance. Price money will be based on what the track promoters are willing to pay, and like 80% of it goes to the teams on a performance based principle. the rest to us for continued finance of development of the cars and the series.

 

I bet that a lot of teams/people involved in higher single-seaters series including F1 would be interested in hearing more about that project.
...
What about the car then.. I´m no engineer but this is the type of car what I would love to see if so. :)

Basics
A 2 meters wide Formula 1 type car

Weight

650 kg including driver, without fuel, oil etc.
(Drivers weighing less than 75 kg will have to add ballast below their seat to reach 75 kg.)

Engine
3.5L normally aspirated V10 + kers engine @ ~1200-1300 BHP.

Gearbox
6 speed, paddle operated. Sort of "quick-shift", but no fancy unnecessary and super expensive double clutch seamless gearboxes. Paddle operated clutch. I would love to see the return of H-shifters and foot operated clutches too, but that´s prolly not really financially realistic as the driver will start to miss gears at times if so and hence that, blow both engines and destroy gearboxes too.

Aero
Ground effect based car where its much less complicated wings (think early 90`s) are basically used to balance the car. DF performance set in conjunction with tire performance with increased slip angles and emphasis on a quite higher percentage of mechanical grip vs aero than the current F1 cars have.   

Tires
Michelin/Bridgestone type made tires that will let the drivers push hard until they drop-off. Wider rears (compared to today) so that the really skilled drivers both can drive the car "on throttle" once again and "lean" on their rear tires out of the corners too, something that has been missing from F1 since 1992.

Drivers equipment (beside the obvious ones).
Remove ALL knobs and buttons on the steering wheels except radio, drink and pit-speed limiter.
Adjustable rollbars and brake balance levers will be allowed, but that´s about it.
 

Telemetry
Forbid ALL telemetry sensors on the cars except for a few ones on the brakes for safety reasons and on the engine too so that the teams can tell a driver to nurse or retire the car before its engine gets to damaged.

Those measures will give back all the aspects of racing an F1 car to the drivers once again and make a HUGE saving in costs as there will no longer be any need for like 20-30 technicians (for each team) looking at computer screens gathering information while in constant contact with the "homebase", trying to figure out and then telling the drivers what settings they should use and to drive the car.

And with no-one to tell them how to drive their cars, manage their tires, their brakes*, and no possibility to adjust the cars diff-settings, the drivers will have to concentrate a lot more on setup and be able to adjust their driving to the cars handling, just as it used to be.

*Until an eventual catastrophic brake failure could possibly be foreseen. (controlled by teams and race-control.)
...
NO use of unnecessary expensive materials like 1 000 Euro a piece wheel bolts that only can be used once and other silly and useless expensive stuff like that. And as said above, no use of seamless gearboxes and so on. No one really cares about that kind stuff anyways just as long as the racing is great and the drivers really gets to show their worth.

 

A Formula 1 car should be a beast to drive and you should be able to appreciate that the guys driving them are doing something really spectacular, not to mention at once realize that "there´s no way in hell that I could do that too" when watching them driving in on-board view.

I mean, think Senna @ Suzuka, Mansell @ Mexico, Peterson at Silverstone and so on to mention a few of many worthy of mentioning. :smoking:

...

Will it happen? I dunno, probably not, but I think that the only ones that possibly could pull it off and make it a viable option to F1 is RedBull.

 

Edit: Spelling disasters..

 

So basically you want a spec series to replace Formula One?

 

There is one slight problem with that - no Ferrari. While people say that fans follow drivers, it is not completely true. Fans in F1 also follow teams, and the biggest team following is Ferrari. And it is a significant portion of the F1 fan base. 

 

McLaren also has a strong following. So too Williams.

 

While McLaren and Williams would possibly go to a spec engine series, I have doubts that they would go to a spec chassis series. Ferrari certainly would not do the former, and probably not the latter. (Enzo did threaten to go to CART, but that was no spec chassis at the time.)

 

So if Ferrari remain in F1 and several top drivers go to his fantasy series, the fan base will be split.

 

If Ferrari went big into F1, then I'm sure McLaren would follow. And probably Mercedes and Williams. Possibly Red Bull.

 

Also, the Superleague Formula was run a few years ago with spec 4l V12s and spec chassis, linked with clubs from the world's most popular sport, and completely failed.


Edited by Wuzak, 10 October 2015 - 22:35.


#44 Wuzak

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 22:34

I hate it.  Bureaucracy and oligarch-based shark-capitalism financial systems have doomed F1.  FIA has no incentive to cooperate to make F1 consumer-interesting anymore, the teams have no clout, Bernie's role has been diluted and the "owners" are not interested, or capable of stepping out and making it better.  They're just ghouls. 

 

You could blame all of this on Bernie.

 

He was the one that got the ridiculous 100 year lease on the commercial rights to F1, then sold them to the vulture venture capitalists.

 

He is the one that is continually pushing the races in new places for exorbitant fees. He was doing that before CVC, btw.

 

He is the one that created the Concorde agreements which essentially tied the FIA's hands.

 

He is the one that continually rejects new meda and has, largely, moved F1 onto pay TV.

 

As for teams having "no clout", I would argue that they have too much influence over the rules. Particularly the big 4. If nothing else, that's what the EU competition commission needs to see and have fixed. The rules should be made by the FIA and the FIA alone. Not the teams.



#45 Wuzak

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 23:52

Also, what would a new series offer a driver like Hamilton?

 

It doesn't have the history of F1, and certainly Hamilton's hero never raced in this hypothetical series.

 

Also, you talk of having racing on the cheap, but if drivers like Hamilton were to jump they would have to have their current pay at least matched. Which means US$50m per season for Hamilton.



#46 weston

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 02:45

You could blame all of this on Bernie.
 
He was the one that got the ridiculous 100 year lease on the commercial rights to F1, then sold them to the vulture venture capitalists.
 
He is the one that is continually pushing the races in new places for exorbitant fees. He was doing that before CVC, btw.
 
He is the one that created the Concorde agreements which essentially tied the FIA's hands.
 
He is the one that continually rejects new meda and has, largely, moved F1 onto pay TV.
 
As for teams having "no clout", I would argue that they have too much influence over the rules. Particularly the big 4. If nothing else, that's what the EU competition commission needs to see and have fixed. The rules should be made by the FIA and the FIA alone. Not the teams.

 
My very simple 2 cents on the situation as opinion:
 

1. Selling the commercial rights for 100 years is not only a criminal but Blatter level action was. Major players were: FIA (Mosley) and Ecclestone.

 

2. Although racing teams want monopoly at any costs but free competition is the foundation stone of F1. Racing requires level playing field competition. Championship (ie. racing events) directly and indirectly generate money for the participants. This is the symbiotic relationship between the sport and business side. Without the sport side there is no business. Jean Todt’s responsibility is to lead the regulatory body (FIA). He should set rules and guard, encourage and promote competition. It’s in his job description. He can't transfer these rights and duties to anybody or anything. Not even for money.  Even thinking of selling these responsibilities to some privilaged teams is a big no-no. He thinks he did so. He is wrong. Somebody should tell him. His ‘I don't care’ or 'laissez-faire' leadership hurts F1. So I blame FIA and namely Jean Todt for the current situation. I am sure his acceptance level is at all time low.

 

3. Ecclestone is not able to manage the commercial side in full capacity. He and his business partners (CVC etc.) does not promote F1. They take away resources from the whole F1 circus that seriously damage the competition level. See the issues of number of teams, their abilities to compete for championship etc. He lost his ringmaster role a long time ago. He lives in the past. For example he completely missed the Internet business 10 years ago.

 

4. We are now heading a duopoly of engine suppliers that are also competing racing teams and practically have a say in regulation thanks to Todt and Ecclestone. This situation is killing off competition, and inevitably F1. We are already in monopolistic competition in an oligopolistic market, because the cost of starting a PU business - for example for RBR - is extreme high and the number of independent suppliers entering it is zero. Mercedes and Ferrari keep the whole field in bay. As PU manufacturers and suppliers they prefer their own racing teams with engine packages that are capable of winning the championship. Renault is in limbo. Honda is uncompetitive. Majority of the teams have zero chance to go for championship and there is no real development race among constructors.

 

5. F1 has a huge global presence but we can't build a new one from scratch. F1 can be easily destroyed though. The duo of Todt and Ecclestone is a disaster.

 

[Edit: typo etc. Server collapsed while editing and I felt asleep.]


Edited by weston, 11 October 2015 - 09:52.


#47 Quickshifter

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 07:35

Despite all the irks and quirks I love f1 as much as i used to when Mika was winning world championships. If as a Mclaren fan i am still enjoying the sport with the team being at the back i dunno why people are talking about the sport being in a apocalyptic stage. Plenty of things need to be improved in formula one but there are also plenty of things that makes you fall in love with it.

#48 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 07:40

the series could attract big names from F1. 

 

Superstars:

 

Nick Heidfeld

 

Heikki Kovalainen

 

Kamui Kobayashi 

 

Bruno Senna

 

Nelson Piquet Jr

 

Vitaly Petrov

 

Adrian Sutil

 

Paul di Resta

 

Anthony Davidson

 

Jean-Eric Vergne

 

Sebastian Buemi

 

Jaime Alguersuari

 

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:

 

One can go on and on. :up:  :up:  

 

Not to mention:

 

Simona de Silvestro

 

Nicolas Prost etc etc  :up:



#49 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 07:41

Which means US$50m per season for Hamilton.

 

Who needs Hamilton, when Red Bull have Ricciardo who is just as good. :wave: :)



#50 Nathan

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 17:10

What would initially draw sponsors, *top* drivers (not 2nd rate 'super stars'), teams and engine makers, beyond promises?

 

Formula E used a whole new concept.  What would another I.C. powered open wheel series bring to fans?

What would change? What prevents a new series from being dominated by it's founder and investor?  Why would people take it seriously as the top form of circuit based motorsport?