86 replies to this topic

[turssi]

I enjoy the current engine wars, but for sure it will be horrible should there be just two.

Anyway, the answer as always is F1 reinventing itself.

[sabjit]

Guys, Mercs dominance will end at some point.

 

And we have had several periods of total dominance by one team and the sport is still here.

[Nathan]

It is the nature of F1, and motorsport in general.  If you look at IndyCar and NASCAR you find the same teams winning year in and year out as well.  Le Mans, the current end all and be all, has been virtually dominated by Audi since the turn of the century.

[Nustang70]

What would initially draw sponsors, *top* drivers (not 2nd rate 'super stars'), teams and engine makers, beyond promises?

 

Formula E used a whole new concept.  What would another I.C. powered open wheel series bring to fans?

What would change? What prevents a new series from being dominated by it's founder and investor?  Why would people take it seriously as the top form of circuit based motorsport?

 Yup. Let F1 blunder on. Formula E has the potential to be the premier racing series of the future. 

[Nathan]

 Yup. Let F1 blunder on. Formula E has the potential to be the premier racing series of the future. 

I'm not so sure. I think the motorsport fan would have to change significantly.  To begin with consider the complaints of a lack of sound from many F1 fans.  F-E isn't going to trump F-1 there.  F-E doesn't appear interested in visiting tracks of historic value to motorsport, and that is a common complaint from F1 fans. Until F-E starts making the big bucks, I don't know if it will appease the F1 fan that enjoys the technical development.  As well how will F-E attract the best of the best drivers, and not the castaways from the current best of the best?  I'm not sure how much seating capacity there is for races held in the centers of old cities, and many F1 fans complain they can't afford F1 ticket prices. I ask is it any better to have an insufficient number of affordable tickets on offer?  The cars are not relatively fast compared to current F1 cars, which most F1 fans complain are too slow. How does the premier circuit racing series not have the fastest circuit racing cars? F-E use gimmicks to enhance racing, which many F1 fans complain about.

To me it seems many of the common complaints from F1 fans of what is ruining the F1 and making it less appealing are ingrained in Formula E.

Edited by Nathan, 12 October 2015 - 00:37.

[GTRacer]

CART's only fault was not having the Indy 500, which led to its inevitable demise as all the big teams were forced to switch to the IRL.  Other than that, there was so much RIGHT about it.

The on-track product may have been great but behind the scenes there was a lot wrong with CART, All the split/losing the 500 did was speed things up. The politics & backstabbing that went on behind the scenes was ridiculous & with the teams having the power they did you had what was good for the individual been put above the good of the series.

 

Sadly I can see some of the same things creeping into the current Indycar, If you do something that teams don't like then they will play politics to see you lose some power or be outright pushed aside. Reading some of what Derrick Walker was putting up with before he stepped down for his position recently was very reminiscent of CART.... Perhaps not surprising given some of the same people are involved.

[GTRacer]

F-E doesn't appear interested in visiting tracks of historic value to motorsport,

They are but just not yet because there trying to avoid performance comparisons with other categories until the technology has improved enough.

[Lee Nicolle]

I know what you mean man, I´ve followed F1 with a passion since I saw my first race when I was 10 and got blown away and that´s 42 years ago now.  Not that 20 or 40 years makes any other difference than that I prolly have more wrinkles than you do and so on..  Not as many as Keith Richards has just yet though, but I´m getting there..

 

Anyways, it´s so God damn frustrating to have seen what could have been done throughout the years to make an already amazing product even better and the ones that rules it constantly seems to **** up and makes it worse. Either by not changing the rules when needed, like to make sure the cars never get too aero-dependant. Or by making changes that´s not needed or that makes the racing worse.

 

Think grooved tires, re-fueling, the move from V10´s to V8´s, or these uberexpensive V6 Turbo hybrid engines that can´t be run without constant management and changes of their settings, which comes with an attached development rule that secures performance advantages/disadvantages for years all for the sake of wanting to look like "green" in the eyes of those who don´t care about racing..

 

Got no exact numbers on this (just some bro science) but it´s like one (1) flight across the pond in a Jumbojet leaves a bigger carbone oxide (dioxide, mono-oxide, oh well something?) print than a whole season of racing with 20 F1 cars at 20 tracks does. Not to mention all pollution from the trucks carrying the cars, the team "houses" and all the other stuff they need too, so screw this unbelievably silly "green racing" F1 concept.
 

I do like the safety standard of the cars of today, but not how they handle and the way that the drivers (with the help of engineers) has to drive them either. But as hooked on F1 as I am, I will of course keep watching every race anyways, and I´ll keep paying for the pleasure too even if (as you prolly have noticed by now), its rule makers get me pretty frustrated at times.

 

Edit: Sorry about my ramblings mates, but that sure felt good to get out of my system..

Simple cars man,, simple.

None of the electric motor crap. A petrol burning high RPM engine. No pnuematic valves,  go back to valve springs which will be the engine limitation. No on the run adjustment of fuel maps etc.  Control  ECU. Moderate amount of fuel to do the race. No refuelling.

 

6 speed manual H pattern with a clutch pedal at least for starts and pit stops.

 

Brakes, hydraulic on all 4 wheels. Rotor size eg 14" Steel or Iron only.

 Wheels free up to 18 dia and 14" wide.  Tyres with a mininum duro that will last the whole race. One man and one gun for tyre stops if required.

 

Yes I know, simple and in comparison inexpensive. Smaller operations should be able to make decent engines as Cosworth did in the past.

If Nascar can run 2 valve engines at near 10000 rpm for 500 miles F1 should be able too to..

 

No radios. Simple pit boards. The driver is there to drive the car fast, not program the car to go fast, slow, economical. And pit orders are there for all to see.

 

No carbon fibre except for basic structure. eg tubs. The rest alloy or normal composite materials so less cut tyres and punctures.

 

Aero simple 2 or 3 plane wings.  No gargoyles allowed. Cars with flat bottoms and wide wings to give down force. A wide near flat wing will probably give more downforce but with more drag, slowing the cars a little on hi speed tracks. Where they can then take out most of the chicanes!

[August]

Yup. Let F1 blunder on. Formula E has the potential to be the premier racing series of the future.

As soon as WEC started getting attention away from F1, FIA approved an F1 calendar screwing it. Expect them to screw also FE if it starts to threaten F1.

[SuperSwede]

Lol, are the thejudge13 lurking this forum (too) in their hunt for click-bait´s..?     

 

Dietricht Mateschitz is considering forming a ‘Red Bull Formula Series.

Edited by SuperSwede, 14 October 2015 - 07:23.

[P123]

If they don't want to spend through the nose in F1 any longer (what is behind their hissy fit) then they won't want to spend multiples of that to set up and run their own series, paying the drivers $25m each. Think about that..... nice dream of socking it to those in F1 who won't hand them guaranteed success, but reality is a little harsher. Guaranteed Red Bull victories, but it would hit their own pockets hard, and nobody would care.

[SuperSwede]

Well, you might not care or wanna watch such a series and that´s your prerogative mate. But saying that nobody will is an assumption that is wrong and based on your position on the matter. I can assure you that I would and so would a huge amount of people who share the same kind of passion for racing as I do too. 
...
Red Bull might wanna try to lure a few top drivers from F1 if they start such a series to get a few more than their own stars in the cars. And sure, if they want to get Alonso in one them for instance, it will probably cost something in that region, but it won´t for most others. On top of that, the idea will most likely not be based on running all the cars them self, but to get people/teams from other high end racing series to join up and those teams will of course have to pay their own drivers, although Red Bull might find it in their interest to chip in some cases.

...

There´s a lot of great drivers that easily could/would be available and who would jump at the opportunity to race in such a series too.

 

You´ve got the ones that already deserves to be in F1 but can´t get there because of the "poor" teams need for paydrivers, and there´s a whole bunch of really good drivers currently racing in FE for instance and the up and comers in GP2 too. Not to mention some of the IndyCar drivers (and teams) that might wanna join the series too.

 

Wouldn´t it be awesome to see drivers like Scott Dixon, Will Power and JPM fighting it out with the likes of Ricciardo and Verstappen?*
...
As I said earlier in this thread, I do believe that Red Bull are the only ones that could possibly start up such a series. But I don´t believe for a second that they (if so) would have planned to finance it all by them self. There will of course be both co-partners and sponsors involved too. Think, VW (re-branded) V10´s, tire manufacturer(s) and other major possible sponsors that doesn´t think that sponsoring F1 gives them enough "bang for the buck", (previous F1´s or new ones) and perhaps even "Gulf money".

 

And then there´s the revenue from track owners and TV contract´s too and I bet that Red Bull will make sure that viewing it will be for free as that suit´s their own marketing and give the other sponsors involved more attention and a good marketing position too. The same goes for the teams, it will help them to find those sponsors to finance their teams too as those won´t have to fork up anything near the ridiculous amount of money that it costs to be involved in F1.

...

*And just think if they got to do it in the kind car that I described on page 1..    

 

Edit: The usual spelling disasters..

Edited by SuperSwede, 14 October 2015 - 13:01.

[chipmcdonald]

Lol, are the thejudge13 lurking this forum (too) in their hunt for click-bait´s..?     

 

Dietricht Mateschitz is considering forming a ‘Red Bull Formula Series.

 

 

For some reason "plethora of tracks" seems familiar...

[chipmcdonald]

A "replacement" for F1 that is a spec series isn't a replacement.

 

There is zero reason someone can't manage a series around  safe, 210 mph/5G bespoke cars on international circuits, provided they have the money.  We don't need "DTM "formula" 1".

[ExFlagMan]

 

...
As I said earlier in this thread, I do believe that Red Bull are the only ones that could possibly start up such a series. But I don´t believe for a second that they (if so) would have planned to finance it all by them self. There will of course be both co-partners and sponsors involved too. Think, VW (re-branded) V10´s, tire manufacturer(s) and other major possible sponsors that doesn´t think that sponsoring F1 gives them enough "bang for the buck", (previous F1´s or new ones) and perhaps even "Gulf money".

 

 

And then there´s the revenue from track owners and TV contract´s too and I bet that Red Bull will make sure that viewing it will be for free as that suit´s their own marketing and give the other sponsors involved more attention and a good marketing position too. The same goes for the teams, it will help them to find those sponsors to finance their teams too as those won´t have to fork up anything near the ridiculous amount of money that it costs to be involved in F1.

 

What revenue from track owners? - to get it off the ground they would probably have to go down the 'free ticket' admission model used by Renault for the 3.5 series so they would be 'paying' the track owners.

 

Same with TV revenue - they would probably have to give the TV coverage for free or even 'incentives' the companies to show it.

 

Many of the teams that run in GP2/GP3/Renault 3.5 struggle to survive  already and depend on pay-drivers, so I am not sure how this would be any different, unless Red Bull provided massive subsides to the provision of cars/engines/spare.

 

Why do you think all these previous attempts at alternate high-end single seater series failed.

[maximilian]

You´ve got the ones that already deserves to be in F1 but can´t get there because of the "poor" teams need for paydrivers, and there´s a whole bunch of really good drivers currently racing in FE for instance and the up and comers in GP2 too. Not to mention some of the IndyCar drivers (and teams) that might wanna join the series too.

 

Wouldn´t it be awesome to see drivers like Scott Dixon, Will Power and JPM fighting it out with the likes of Ricciardo and Verstappen?*
...

 

It WOULD be awesome - that's why I still think it would make much sense for Red Bull to make use of the existing IndyCar framework and build on that, instead of starting everything from scratch.   Become the new title investor/sponsor of the Red Bull IndyCar World Championship, take some of that management mess off the current owners (which will be the sticking point... would Hulman/George really relinquish their baby to be managed by someone else?  I think we all know they'd be better off, but they don't know that!)  Take all that's good about IndyCar, and add to it, use their marketing clout and their international experience to set up new races overseas, bring in more teams (including themselves, of course), it has such potential to grow into a fantastic global series, including close racing, the real danger and thrill aspect of ovals, the biggest spectacle in racing, joined by classics such as Surfers' Paradise, Imola, Donington (or Silverstone, for that matter, if they really get screwed over by F1), Spielberg, Nürburgring/Hockenheim, Paul Ricard, Fuji...

 

If only!

[KingTiger]

It WOULD be awesome - that's why I still think it would make much sense for Red Bull to make use of the existing IndyCar framework and build on that, instead of starting everything from scratch.   Become the new title investor/sponsor of the Red Bull IndyCar World Championship, take some of that management mess off the current owners (which will be the sticking point... would Hulman/George really relinquish their baby to be managed by someone else?  I think we all know they'd be better off, but they don't know that!)  Take all that's good about IndyCar, and add to it, use their marketing clout and their international experience to set up new races overseas, bring in more teams (including themselves, of course), it has such potential to grow into a fantastic global series, including close racing, the real danger and thrill aspect of ovals, the biggest spectacle in racing, joined by classics such as Surfers' Paradise, Imola, Donington (or Silverstone, for that matter, if they really get screwed over by F1), Spielberg, Nürburgring/Hockenheim, Paul Ricard, Fuji...

 

If only!

 

IndyCar does not want to be a global series. Costs would be way too high. A parallel IndyCar International series would make more sense. The problem is that taking over IndyCar wouldn't really help their problem of 1000+ employees being left without anything to do, since the series is a spec duopoly. 

[SuperSwede]

Why do you think all these previous attempts at alternate high-end single seater series failed.

Because they were not properly founded, are/were minor series with cars and driver which was/are not as exiting as the current Top series, F1 and as such not really comparable with F1, and hence that not able to compete with its popularity either. 

[mclarensmps]

I enjoy the current engine wars, but for sure it will be horrible should there be just two.

Anyway, the answer as always is F1 reinventing itself.

 

It's not a war if development is restricted. I WOULD enjoy an Engine war if development was open. I have no issue with Mercedes being the best engine out there, demolishing the competition. They deserve it. But the others deserve a chance to catch up. 

[SuperSwede]

About going IndyCar; I see your point Maximilian and its a fair one, but as King Tiger said, IndyCar is a US based series and if someone is ever gonna be able to create a series that possibly could replace F1 (which was OP´s question), it must most likely be based in Europe and also be using some of the really good historic GP tracks there that F1 has abandoned for venues like Azerbaijan, Bahrain and Sochi and so on.

...

But the idea of making an IndyCar could perhaps be a future project as the Dallara DW12 came out as a real shitbox to be honest. Which was due to massive over weight and mostly at the rear which scared the crap out of many of the drivers when they tested it on ovals initially. It was so bad that they had to fill its nosecone with a massive amount of ballast* to at least make it somewhat driveable.

 

It´s still a very odd handling racing car in which you must carry a lot of more speed into the corners than usual to be able to achieve good lap times. The old fashion slow in - fast out technique does not work with that car and I was actually not all that surprised that it took Montoya a season to get used to it.

 

Even so, I really like IndyCar too and I watch most races when I can as they are broadcasted in Sweden too and comes with the pay wall Sports packet that I must have for to see F1. But as it also shows Nascar, GP2, GP3 and MotoGP which I also like, it feels like a pretty good deal.   

...

Anyways,  making cars for other racing series too, such as WEC, IndyCar and so on could be a viable business model that would keep parts of their staff occupied. I´m pretty sure that Red Bull can make or develop other kinds of cars too, like tintop racing cars and even rally cars too if so.

 

But as I´ve said previously, I dunno if Red Bull will create a series that possibly could replace F1, but I think that if there´s anyone that could possibly do it, it´s them.

...

* I´ve read that it was something like 20 pounds of ballast that was needed in the nosecone (don´t take my word for it, that number could be both a bit higher or lesser, it was a lot anyways), and it could have been the reason why it got detached and also why it hitting Justin Wilson had such so devastating result. 

Edited by SuperSwede, 14 October 2015 - 18:31.

[SuperSwede]

I should perhaps add that such a series would have to start out as a spec-series for obvious reasons, but it could possibly develop into a non spec-series in the future.

...

It´s fun to speculate in stuff like this, but that most certainly does not mean that I want F1 to die, I still love it although I get pretty frustrated with its rule makes at times. I´m just having some fun here and I don´t feel that I have to create the whole business model and make it viable too, that´s for other to do like the accountants at Red Bull for instance.

 

   

[ExFlagMan]

Because they were not properly founded, are/were minor series with cars and driver which was/are not as exiting as the current Top series, F1 and as such not really comparable with F1, and hence that not able to compete with its popularity either. 

Assuming you meant 'not properly funded' then I would not disagree - but the point I was trying to make was that it an awfully big 'wedge' to get such things off the ground and that it is not just about putting cars on track (that's the really easy bit) , now matter how loud they might be.

[SuperSwede]

Assuming you meant 'not properly funded' then I would not disagree - but the point I was trying to make was that it an awfully big 'wedge' to get such things off the ground and that it is not just about putting cars on track (that's the really easy bit) , now matter how loud they might be.

But ffs mate, I never said that it would be easy..

 

I know that there´s like a zillions pieces that has to be put together. It´s everything from the letter A  to Z and then some that has to get sorted, including funding. And now that you know that I know that too, and also have an other opinion than you do if it possibly could be done. We´re not gonna come much further as I won´t dwell on the problems with organization, funding, logistics, staff, and so on, because I find it boring.

 

I´m just in here posting to have a bit of fun, you know.

 

   

Edited by SuperSwede, 14 October 2015 - 20:54.

[ExFlagMan]

Can I have a share of the 's***t' you are smoking...

[SuperSwede]

Nah.. I care too much for you for that..

[SuperSwede]

lol, now we´re having fun..   

[Volcano70]

If there was a rival series, I'd like refueling

[Norm]

We don't need "DTM "formula" 1".

 

That is exactly what Mercedes and Fiat want.

 

Did you notice how quickly Toto brought up third cars again last week? F1 will become a full blown showcase for the manufactures. If RedBull leave the "sport" then I think I am done as well - and I am not a RB fan at all. F1 has become a complete corrupt joke and deserves everything that it is going to get.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

 

But as I´ve said previously, I dunno if Red Bull will create a series that possibly could replace F1, but I think that if there´s anyone that could possibly do it, it´s them.

 

It would be fairly straightforward for RBT to manufacture a working prototype(s) of the initial spec chassis.  It's not far from their current (V8 era) race cars.

[V8 Fireworks]

But ffs mate, I never said that it would be easy..

 

I know that there´s like a zillions pieces that has to be put together. It´s everything from the letter A  to Z and then some that has to get sorted, including funding. 

 

It's not that hard

 

 

Just THIS YEAR the TCR world championship was started as breakaway rival to the WTCC.  Nothing like as difficult as you make out...

[chipmcdonald]

That is exactly what Mercedes and Fiat want.

 

Did you notice how quickly Toto brought up third cars again last week? F1 will become a full blown showcase for the manufactures. If RedBull leave the "sport" then I think I am done as well - and I am not a RB fan at all. F1 has become a complete corrupt joke and deserves everything that it is going to get.

 

 

 Again (again) the nebulous nature of the rules making is explained nicely by the notion that "some parties" wish F1 to effectively merge with GP2.   The performance gap is being closed, the leniency in creativeness with the cars has basically been removed.  Meanwhile we're told for some reason the best engineers in the world can only come up with "this" (including the ones from Mercedes that would have put party whizzer cones on the exhausts....).

 

 

 Again (again) (and again) The engines rules are NOT to bring in manufacturers under some sort of virtual-crazy-reality world notion of "road car relevance", but to keep competition away by making it impossible or suicidal to compete. 

 

 Ridiculousness, Redbull "can't find an engine? There just isn't any other possible way for their car to be powered competitively, to RACE other cars?

 

*There only isn't if the status quo is to be maintained!*

 

Let them put V8s/V10's in and RACE. 

[CommonSense]

The Red Bull breakaway series would have the best potential in replacing F1 but in order to succeed they'd have to:

1. Make it so manufacturers can be competitive in the first year
2. Use classic tracks that F1 abandoned
3. Have the cars be faster and aesthetically more pleasing than F1 cars (wouldn't be hard to do)
4. Like with NASCAR, mandate the drivers interact with the fans at the events
5. Make sure the races would be televised with free mobile apps so fans can be more involved
6. Advertise the cars as being the pinnacle of motorsport (if point 3 is done then they would have a legit argument)
7. Advertise easier access to race information and drivers than F1

All they would really need to do (which is much easier said than done) is to lure some great talent (driver and team-wise) from F1 to this new series.  If the new cars are faster, more fun to drive and look better than current F1 cars along with racing at classic tracks F1 doesn't use, it'll either lure some drivers over or force F1 to make proper changes... a win-win for the fans.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's not that hard
 

 
Just THIS YEAR the TCR world championship was started as breakaway rival to the WTCC.  Nothing like as difficult as you make out...

Wasn't TCR announced a little sooner?

And it's a bit quicker to put that together. It's a pretty basic touring car series...

Good luck getting a major international series up and running this quickly. Nevermind the equipment.

[Fastcake]

Wasn't TCR announced a little sooner?

And it's a bit quicker to put that together. It's a pretty basic touring car series...

Good luck getting a major international series up and running this quickly. Nevermind the equipment.

 

It's not even a good comparison. TCR was formed last year to be placed between WTCC and single-make cups, and is even now an official FIA category (FIA TCN-2). It's about as far as a breakaway rival world championship as you can get.

[BRG]

Not to mention that it is dominated by one marque (SEAT instead of Citroen), has similar poor grids, similar poor driving standards, and is even less exciting than WTCC.  And has an even lower profile.

 

Apart from that, it is a huge success.  

[Nathan]

One has to be naïve to think the starting of a new TC series is equivalent to creating an OW series able to threaten F1's position at the top of the auto circuit racing order.

 

Lefties.  Everything is some money and a snap of the finger away.

[Ross Stonefeld]

This isn't about Left or Right, but lazy thinking. And poor journalism for people reporting it as if it was any way credible.